Scottish politics thread

 I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”, even then it won’t be that uncommon for a CEO to lend his beloved organisation cash without informing his wife.

I can certainly believe that a husband would engage in odd transactions without their wife knowing – gambling addicts do it all the time.

What’s less credible is that she didn’t know that AND she didn’t know the SNP’s dire financial position  AND that she didn’t know where the funds to plug the gap (or cover up the shortfall) came from. But of course that’s a question for the court.

No one with any ambition or nous really wants the job now as its almost certain the SNP are going to lose seats at both westminster and holyrood.

That, and possibly the Sturgeon/Murrell criminal trial, which even if it doesn’t personally involve the leader (not guaranteed considering how small a group of people we are talking about) will be weeks and weeks of coverage of the shambles inside the SNP…at best.

But of course that’s a question for the court.

We don’t even know that this is the basis for the prosecution.  Certainly lending money to the party isn’t obviously embezzlement.

the Sturgeon/Murrell criminal trial,

Sturgeon has not even been charged!  There’s no certainty that even having been charged Murrrell will ever end up in court, nor elect to have a protracted trial if he does so.

You are right though – it’s another shit show that should put people off being leader; it would be much easier to be the leader after this one, and allow a sacrificial lamb to deal with currently BHA mass, election losses, party financial ruin, possible media storm around court cases etc.  But then people who want to stand as political leaders often aren’t wired up like normal people anyway!

I want what’s best for Scotland (and indeed the UK given how many friends and family I have in the other parts). So far I haven’t seen enough evidence that breaking up the union would be a good thing.

If supporters of independence put forward sound economic arguments (and similar) I’ll happily listen and debate. What I can’t be bothered with is the “Scotland needs to be free from English rule” drivel

Totally agree, mostly what I hear from Indy supporters is “believe that Scotland will be better” however the evidence I see does not support this belief.

Do I think Scotland could thrive after Independence? Yes. How long will this take? Could be decades or might not happen at all. To me the risk is not worth the possible reward. If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed. Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.

The SNP’s failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.

@poly

“I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured”

I agree with everything else you say but other parties do not have a married couple as CEO and party leader. The other senior members of the SNP were either happy with this dodgy arrangment or too cowed by the Sturgeon/Murrell iron grip on the party to openly challenge it.

Iron grip? One random example the party treasurer who resigned because Murrell wouldn’t let him see the books.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-snp-treasurer-douglas-chapman-says-great-disappointment-at-not-being-able-to-make-party-accounts-accessible-forced-him-to-quit-role-4274326

The SNP’s failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.

Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success – and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government – the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics

If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed. Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.

Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign.  so nothing like you claim

and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government – the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics

I mean, watching the Tories tear themselves apart after delivering independence and take the country down with them has been such a fun rollercoaster, I can see why you’d want to go round again.

Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign.  so nothing like you claim

The plan that was completely unaffordable?

I mean, watching the Tories tear themselves apart after delivering independence and take the country down with them has been such a fun rollercoaster, I can see why you’d want to go round again.

Bravo!

The plan that was completely unaffordable?

Says who – the unionist press?  did you even read it?

the unionist press

Sorry didn’t realise I was only allowed to get my “facts” from the national.

If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed.

I think you know that providing evidence of something that is going to happen in the future is impossible, no?

However, if you want to persuade others to back unionism I think you should start thinking about what you’re going to say when people start asking you to provide evidence that Scotland is going to be better off as part of the UK.

In 2014 the union was very much the status quo.  Now, in post-Brexit Britain, no one knows what the future is going to look like.  It will absolutely be poorer than if the UK hadn’t left, not many folk will argue against that.

So where is your evidence that staying in the UK on it’s Brexit meltdown journey is going to be better than an independent Scotland forging it’s own relationship, both with rUK and with Europe?

“I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”,”

I’m glad I didnt bring that up. ‘It’s just rumours, no truth in it’ was one response when queried.

I think you know that providing evidence of something that is going to happen in the future is impossible, no?

However, if you want to persuade others to back unionism I think you should start thinking about what you’re going to say when people start asking you to provide evidence that Scotland is going to be better off as part of the UK.

I don’t need to do anything, we had a vote. If you want change prove it will improve the country.

In 2014 the union was very much the status quo.  Now, in post-Brexit Britain, no one knows what the future is going to look like.  It will absolutely be poorer than if the UK hadn’t left, not many folk will argue against that.

Yes Scotland is poorer because we left the EU, why would we make ourselves even poorer by leaving the UK? There is no guarantee of joining the EU post Indy.

So where is your evidence that staying in the UK on it’s Brexit meltdown journey is going to be better than an independent Scotland forging it’s own relationship, both with rUK and with Europe?

here- https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2021/02/04/indyref2-scottish-independence-would-be-2-3-times-more-costly-than-that-of-brexit-and-rejoining-the-eu-wouldnt-make-up-the-difference/#comments

“Stay in the Union” they said “things could be worse”
So we stayed, and they were right; things were worse!
I reckon our one chance to make a realistic go of independence has passed us by – we’re now wedded to the Westminster economic death spiral, and I doubt the UK’s ability to haul itself out of the mire in my lifetime. Of course, if you don’t share the aspiration of living in a country with a social democratic ethos, then the current situation may be less of a concern. For me, independence is less to do with how it might benefit me economically, and more about the opportunity to help build a ‘better’ society.

Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.

Did YOU vote to Leave?

The plan that was completely unaffordable?

Your Unionists are currently borrowing/overspending £300m PER DAY across the UK* and have averaged this for the past +5,000 days – is this “affordable”?

• – circa £30m for Scotland based on 10% of the population

The SNP’s failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.

Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success

It might be useful to back up these claims. Where are these great successes?

Let’s allow the modest reduction in absolute poverty among children from 24% to 21% since the SNP came to power, mostly through additional benefit payments for children. (NB that relative poverty among children remained at 24% throughout, so no improvement there). This is a good thing.

Claim one in four Scots children is in poverty is True

What else is there, specifically?

“I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured”

Who cares though? The question isn’t whether the SNP was just as crap as others – that doesn’t help Scottish residents at all. The question is whether the SNP was well and honestly run. It’s obvious that it was poorly run. As for honestly…that’s for the court to consider…

What else is there, specifically?

I p0ut a partial list up before

NHS – no strikes, better pay for staff, end to privitisation, 10% saving of t6otal NHS budget in admin costs due to getting rid of the fake market.  Itsd noty perfect as without more mone4y what cvan be done is limited but less issues than England

Poverty – not just the single child payment but measures to alleviate the bedroom tax, bring PIP assessments back in house etc etc

Land reform act and community buyouts fusing the land fund

Infrastructure for green energy

Reopening railway lines

Bringing railways back into state control

Loads more as well

Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign.

You mean with all those ‘concrete’ plans like keeping the pound, or joining the EU and adopting the Euro, like keeping UK military protection but nothing else etc. When Boris Johnson et al were coming out with all sorts of bollocks about how nothing would change post-brexit everyone ridiculed them and called it ‘cakeism’. What’s the difference?

Yes Dazh – we know you do not understand.  Please either learn a bit or stop trolling

here-

That’s not actually evidence.  It’s a projection based on the assumption that patterns of trade pre and post independence are going to remain the same.

Here is some actual evidence that shows the limitations of your projections:

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/04/ireland-booms-brexit-whimpers-next-door

This isn’t so much to say that Scotland will be successful because Ireland was or that Scotland should follow the same model, just not to expect reality to follow projections because nothing happens in a vacuum.

Ireland was supposed to contract in a similar way to how your report describes.  However, the opposite happened.

So there you go.  Some evidence.

Yes Dazh – we know you do not understand.  Please either learn a bit or stop trolling

Careful, I got a warning for saying dazh was being willfully ignorant.

I got a warning for saying dazh was being willfully ignorant.

Really? To be clear that wasn’t a result of me using the report button. Unlike many on here I can take a bit of flak. I certainly don’t get offended at someone making a silly joke about the importance of my government 😉

I agree with everything else you say but other parties do not have a married couple as CEO and party leader.

That’s true, but neither does the SNP anymore! and I’m not sure the others actually have anything to stop it.

The other senior members of the SNP were either happy with this dodgy arrangment or too cowed by the Sturgeon/Murrell iron grip on the party to openly challenge it.

Probably a bit of both – in the “boom times” that iron grip probably helped party unity and success, and so many would have perceived it as strong leadership and strength.

Iron grip? One random example the party treasurer who resigned because Murrell wouldn’t let him see the books.

All organisations involve politics (with a small p).  Once those organisations become Political (with a large P) they must become toxic nightmares! They could all have been part of a giant conspiracy or they could mostly have been taken for a ride.   I suspect, like the post office scandal, and probably lots of similar things – its probably somewhere in the middle: nobody set out to be dodgy, but as things developed mistaken belief became spin, spin became lies, lies became a cover up and then there’s too much to lose by trying to stop the runnaway train.

When Boris Johnson et al were coming out with all sorts of bollocks about how nothing would change post-brexit everyone ridiculed them and called it ‘cakeism’. What’s the difference?

The difference was the 2014 Scottish Government laid out in writing their intention and essentiallly everyone involved was signing from the same agenda.  They might secretly have been thinking – this bit won’t happen, or we’ll be lucky to negotiate that – but it was one unified position to vote for or against.   When the 2016 referendum was tabled it was a nebulous idea; ask one person and they meant a soft Brexit, another a hard Brexit, some would flip-flop depending on who they were talking to.  Big issues like the Irish border were highlighted but dismisssed.  Nobody could actually know what they were voting for.  The closest we got to a white paper was some words on a bus.  Even after the vote when some dismayed at what had happened though politicians might see some sense and negotiate a “soft option” – the only explanation was Brext mean Brexit.  Even after we’ve left NI had been in a state of flux.

Now Scot Gov would have had a tricky situation if they won the vote but then couldn’t deliver on some of the major promises in the white paper.  But of course the “unionist” response was also to make claims in 2014, like only way to stay in the EU, which kind of backfired too!

Who cares though? The question isn’t whether the SNP was just as crap as others – that doesn’t help Scottish residents at all. The question is whether the SNP was well and honestly run. It’s obvious that it was poorly run. As for honestly…that’s for the court to consider…

The average Scot couldn’t give a monkey’s about how well or otherwise the SNP as a party is run.  That is an issue for their members and donors not for the ordinary public.  What the public care about is how well the country is run.  Many of them will be quite vocal that its badly run – few can tell you what to change other than spending more money on the things they care about and less on stuff they don’t – which is politics in a nutshell!

I certainly don’t get offended at someone making a silly joke about the importance of my government

I( have asked you to explain the humour.  Please explain why it was funny

Please either learn a bit or stop trolling

TJ there is no trolling here. It’s an established fact that many (if not all) of the ‘plans’ the SNP had for independence were based on wishful thinking and/or lazy assumptions. There were no concrete agreements in place with the UK govt or the EU for a post-independence Scotland which guaranteed the continuance of trade agreements, movement of people, defence and other major issues. I also seem to remember the SNP indulging in a bit of ‘they need us more than we need them’ bravado with North Sea oil and gas, tax from the whiskey industry and threatening to ban the use of Faslane as a nuclear base. The parallels with brexit are quite incredible really.

The difference was the 2014 Scottish Government laid out in writing their intention and essentiallly everyone involved was signing from the same agenda.

You mean when they couldn’t answer the simple question about what currency they would use? (among other things)

No trolling?  Just ignorance then?  Because what you say is totally divorced from the reality.

No please explain your “silly joke”  Where was the humour?

Knock it on the head TJ, constant bickering is ruining what could otherwise be an interesting thread. No one owes you explanations for anything they post. Just ignore @dazh if you don’t want to engage.

How about asking him to knock it on the head?.  His posts are truly ignorant and offensive.

Claiming a joke when an offensive post is made is not acceptable hence asking him to explain the humour.  the fact he cannot shows a lot.

yes I’ll leave this thread now and leave it to the ignorant and trolls to post their cant and canards.  I suspect others have left for the same reason.

Where was the humour?

If you can’t see the amusing side to a govt collapsing because of irrelevant issues like gender recognition and the misplaced hubris and king size incompetence of it’s leaders then that’s not my problem. TBH the comparison with a county council was probably unfair, most county councils are probably run much better than Scotland currently is.

Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success – and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government – the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics

The SNP have been in power a long time. Certainly the last year or two has seen the wheels come off the bus (or rather the motorhome!) but before that they were pretty good. Not perfect, but no party, regardless of political persuasion, ever is. But in my opinion they made Scotland the best place in the UK to live.

And that, for me, is both good and bad for both pro-independence and pro-union supporters. Pro-independence will say “Look, the SNP did lots of good things, so think what they could with full independence”. Pro-union will say “Ah yes, but they did all those good things while being part of the UK”. A similar point could be made about anything the SNP have got wrong.

Both arguments have a certain validity. No one can be sure what the future holds, so for both sides it’c conjecture. For me economics is the key factor, most aspects of a good society flow from being a country being on a good economic footing. If independence supporters can convince me on that basis then I would probably vote for it (it would also have to be good for other parts of the UK).

However from what I’ve seen the arguments don’t yet stack up. I don’t know much about economics but worked for years in financial services so I know a lot of people who know a lot about it. And the large majority of them aren’t yet convinced by the case put forward by the SNP etc. It seems to reply too much on optimistic assumptions.

I’m sure Scotland is quite capable of surviving as an independent country. It’s got loads going for it and I love living here. But as long as the chances of us being worse off are more than 50% then I’m not going to vote to leave the UK.  Change that and you’ll get my vote.

dazh has been doing nothing but trolling.

I guess he’s allowed to get away with it while the rest of us get warned and we just have to suck it up.

Dunno if that’s cause he’s got mates in STW towers (or at least that’s what his profile suggests).

 At which point he moved to Todmorden, and randomly bumped into a bunch of magazine types who have the good fortune to do this sort of thing for a living.

But sure, keep throwing your weight around with impunity if that’s how you get your jollies.

but before that they were pretty good.

I think the view from south of the border was generally that Sturgeon looked like a pretty impressive politician, regardless on your views on Independence. I know the old ‘truth’ – all political careers end in failure, but her’s has been a pretty precipitous fall from grace, with the money questions, the motor home, the police tape around their house – its all painted a pretty damning portrait and it reflects on the whole party.  Like the Tories, they’ve been in power too long and seem to have run out of road.

I guess he’s allowed to get away with it while the rest of us get warned and we just have to suck it up.

This is a thread about scottish politics, and I’m discussing scottish politics. Granted I might disagree with the consensus (I usually do) but that is nowhere near to trolling. And for the record I don’t think anything you’ve said deserves a warning, that’s got nothing to do with me, and I’m pretty sure it’s got nothing to do with anyone working at STW. I believe the mods are volunteers separate to the STW staff and I can assure you I don’t know them (or knowingly know them at any rate).

Thread locked while we review it and bold claims of friend of Mods.

Oh great! Kate Forbes might stand. It’s going to be interesting as even she doesn’t think the SNP government is any good https://youtu.be/X4Y87MbbO80?si=3Xnw3zjT5NngPpzy&t=90

Ok here we go.

DazH has a different opinion wether because he doesn’t understand or just sees things different it’s not trolling.

TJ keep it to a discussion not trying to call people out because their opinion is different to yours.

Brucewee your waning was because of much more than saying his was ignorant and you know.

DazH is not friendly with mods by any means.

Anymore childish bickering and all 3 of you will have a break.

I think the view from south of the border was generally that Sturgeon looked like a pretty impressive politician

Indeed. Many of us south of the border would have willingly had Sturgeon as PM over Johnson et al. Even so, it’s not the first time a politician or party who set out with good intentions have been distracted and corrupted by the power at their disposal. It’s a salutory lesson I suppose and yet another window into the filthy world of politics. It’s little wonder that real people with real things to contribute don’t want to get involved with it all.