Scottish politics thread

It’s a bit difficult when there are so many people who have a clearly different point of view to my own.

FTFY @BruceWee

Its not alternative points of view thats the issue.  PCA and i disagree on pretty much everything but he understands the issues and is not deliberately offensive.

Being told that supporting independence is the same as being a brexiteer ie right wing and racist is either ignorant or offensive.  Calling it humour does not remove the offense

What’s this now? Do you have to be a former manager of Liverpool to be FM of Scotland

For balance, look at the parallels between Yousaf/SNP and Klopp/LFC and the way social media has reacted.

I don’t know what the parallels are because I have no interest in football and I don’t go onto the “Liverpool FC thread” to point out how boring and irrelevant and parochial the discussion is to me…

If you’ve no interest in football, you’re not being lined up as the next manager of Man Yoo are you?

Asking for a friend

If I were a brexiteer I’d be 100% behind scottish independence because the exact same arguments and logic apply to both.

An odd argument given that potentially the swing factor in 2014 was the certainty of staying in the EU by rejecting Indy and some of the post 2016 surge came from people who wanted to rejoin the EU.  As I said earlier, anyone dismissing independence without bothering to understand the reasons for its popularity or calling those who believe in it stupid etc is entrenched in division and hate.  There are other ways many of those issues could be tackled – they require the rest of the Union to sit up and say “let’s reprganise to make the whole of the UK a better place for the vast majority”.  Scotland is in no place, morally or numerically to insist it does so.

a lot of people getting upset about criticism of religious politicians; I’d go so far as to say I could vote for a politician with significantly different conclusions on politics from me before I could unwaveringly back one who’s policies were aligned but who’s judgement of everything they see in the world meant they unquestionably believe in god, and think their particular religion just happened to be the right one.  I’ll fight for your right to worship a god of your choosing, but that doesn’t mean I think your judgement is good for choosing to worship that, or any, god.

Well said poly

With the religious its particularly so when they state they would discriminate against folk in the provision of state services because if their sexuality.

“Funny isn’t it how the same people leading the arguments for staying in the EU were the same people leading the arguments against independence. ”

Absolute nonsense Nicola Sturgeon lead the Scottish campaign to stay in the  EU, and with a great deal more skill than Cameron led his campaign

Looks like the SNP are going to go for Swinney in a coronation.  Bland but competent.

Seems others are still keeping their powder dry.  Hard to be sure tho from only reading the english unionist press 🙂

Gilruth has thrown her support behind Swinney which I think is the right move for her.  Being the next leader is not a job I’d particularly want right now.  It’s going to be a firefighting job until after the Holyrood elections.

I started the day wanting it to be MacAllan or Gilruth but now I think Swinney is the best choice for the next couple of years.

Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?

I’m down in Kent so not been fully following it.

I feel a bit shitty for the guy, a bit politically naive but seems decent enough?

The racist abuse being aimed at him (and Khan) on X is appalling, being sneaky cheered on by various GBN presenters of course.

This is only my interpretation,

The greens were due to give their membership a vote on  the BHA  He  was worried that if he waited for the result and they had voted to end the BHA he would look weak. Therefore he ditched them before they ditched the BHA. I think he was poorly or dishonestly advised

Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?

Im not clear either but the greens have been pushing the SNP hard on gender / social issues and green issues and there is a big backlash from the right of the SNP about this so I suspect he did it to fend off attacks from within about the direction of the government.  Ie things like support for grangemouth oil refinery, rowing back on the grouse moor reform and on other social issues.  There has been a feeling ( very wrong in my vierw) that the tail has been wagging the dog.

Its all been a bnit of a clustermuck quite honestly with the greens pushing stuff that is not their core policy and alienating some of their members and  a very big fightback from the SNP right.  Its not that long ago the SNP were a rightwing party and they still have some of the tartan tories in their ranks

Incredibly politically naive from Yousaf but I never thought much of him.

Good point gordimhor  BHA is Bute house agreement – the agreement that put the greens and SNP into coalition ( for those who do not follow scots politics)

Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?

I think he somehow got it in his head that the Greens quitting would be a blow he wouldn’t recover from.  So he dumped them before they dumped him, thinking it would make him appear strong.

It completely misread the situation, imo.  If the rumours are to be believed the Greens were (and probably still are) about to eat themselves alive with the membership severely pissed off with the leadership, and not just because of the BHA.  It’s not really that unusual for a junior partner to leave a coalition before the end, anyway.  A couple of years of opposition lets them differentiate themselves from the government.

He was in a precarious situation from the moment he decided to run.  No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.

Positioning yourself as the continuity candidate and then a week later the police are digging up your old boss’ garden is not a good look.

The SNP and by extension Humza are in a difficult position, it does feel like he took a gamble to see if he could  grab control of a bad situation realising the alternative was a long drawn out unravelling. He probably had little other option really unless he fancied following the Tory playbook of hang on at all costs for as long as possible.

It does feel a bit like the Greens decided to torpedo the SNP but then given the SNP ditching the climate change goals It was probably inevitable. Be really interesting to see what happens next, is the vote of no confidence in the government now off as well as the one for Humza?

Right, I have a better understanding now, thanks guys. 👍

I was about to ask about the no vote on the SNP government…I’m guessing that’ll still go ahead?

If it does and the no vote wins, what happens? If it goes ahead and the yes vote wins, I’m guessing SNP will now scramble for a new leader to sit in the chair?

I’m guessing if SNP gain a no confidence vote then do the polls open and Scotland has an emergency general election (or whatever it is called)?

The decision to not try to meet the climate targets really annoyed me, so I’m glad it has blown up, but I’m hoping something can be done to help start improving plenty of things that I (naively, I suspect) believe to have slipped and getting worse rather than better – not just climate stuff.

I don’t see the Greens torpedoing the government, not now that Yousaf is out.

They aren’t really ‘election ready’ at the moment.

I would tend to agree.  If the greens back the government in a VONC then it falls.  the only party who want an election now are Labour – everyone else is likely to lose seats

John Swinney, that is a damning indictment on the SNP, he’s had his time and wasn’t up to it in the 2000s when it was the golden age for the SNP, now he’s the longest serving MSP who’s just an old figure for the party, in football terms to keep Binners happy this is like bringing back Redknapp or Hodgson to steady the ship, not a good idea.

Could be worse i guess, Stephen Flynn could try and work out how to move houses and get the FM job, it amazes me that the SNP gave up decent orators in both parliaments and replaced them with humourless folk who struggle to answer questions that were presented to their teams a week previous!

One thing in this polarised debate is that unionists will never give the SNP led government any credit

In which case you might want to read what I wrote about the SNP a few pages back. I’m a committed unionist but I accept the SNP government has done a lot of good things in the past 15 years. In fact if it wasn’t for the independence thing I’d probably vote for them.

And yes, before anyone says, I do get that the “independence thing” is kind of a deal breaker for the SNP. (-:

No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.

You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though.

Hang on to that thought @ratherbeintobago…

I feel a bit shitty for the guy, a bit politically naive but seems decent enough?

Meh – time-serving, unremarkable SNP insider unexpectedly propelled to the leadership. 13 years as an MSP and still politically naive…?

I feel a bit shitty for the guy

Oh, bloody hell. Predictive! That should have read, sorry, not shitty.

apologies Kennyp.  shouyld have read “most”  🙂  You are one of the reasonable ones.  Again apologies.

he ditched them before they ditched the BHA. I think he was poorly or dishonestly advised

I think he was stuck between a rock and a hard place – be seen by SNP members to be beholden to the Green members OR risk them retaliating by siding with the tories.  I’m not sure, on reflection, that Green members/voters will actually look back positively on their response.

No one with any ambition or nous really wants the job now as its almost certain the SNP are going to lose seats at both westminster and holyrood.  Hence Yousaf got the job and Swinney looks likely now.  anyone with talent or ambition is waiting until after the next holyrood election when it will be rebuild time not taking a job where they know they will likely be ousted for a poor set of election results

I’m not sure, on reflection, that Green members/voters will actually look back positively on their response.

I’m a green voter and I am displeased with them in this parliament – not so much for this but for using so much political capital on non core missions – they could have achieved a lot more in their core mission.

they are still struggling with the transition from pressure group to party of government IMO

If it does and the no vote wins, what happens? If it goes ahead and the yes vote wins, I’m guessing SNP will now scramble for a new leader to sit in the chair?

I don’t think it matters if there is a VONC now – there’s 28 days from resignation of FM for a new FM to be appointed by Holyrood.  Essentially the SNP need to undergo their leadership process in the next 28 days, and then Parliament get to decide if they support that person becoming FM (or presumably if the leader was from WM then whoever is nominated by the party).  Depending who they pick and what backroom promises they can make it will determine if the opposition parties want to play the game or roll the dice for an election (my guess is tories, green and possibly alba would all do worse in an election; Labour might gain some seats but not enough to be biggest party.  Ultimately they may end up with the same FM anyway!

I don’t think it is 28 days from now. While he has announced he is going Humza remains FM meantime. The act says the 28 day clock starts ticking from the day the FM tendering his resignation to the King.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/46

I presume he will not do that until parliament has elected his successor.

irc – yes I have listened to what he actually said now rather what was reported and he is essentially stating an intention to resign rather than going.   His words were clearly meant to be conciliatory so the greens can work with his successor on a confidence and supply basis and sticking two fingers up at alba!

interesting article.  |I’m not sure I agree with it in entirity but its an interesting take

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/29/humza-yousaf-clumsiness-westminster-snp-scottish-politics

No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.
You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though.

It’s been years in the making, add in the Salmond nightmare, other controversies in government, such as the gender recognition bill causing division in the SNP, and the struggle to keep the BHA going with failures over the last few years and it was clear as day it was a poisoned chalice for whoever took over from Sturgeon, as stated earlier, it reminded me of Gordon Brown becoming PM, he knew it was on a downward curve, but just wanted to be PM so took the position.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/24287166.council-tax-freeze-went-wrong-humza-yousaf/

Interesting view from the Greens’ side.

“You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though. (Sturgeon) “

Of course she did. The accounts hadnt been filed, the Auditor had resigned, even in 2020, money was ‘missing’. The Membership had dropped dramatically, along with income, and they had lied about it to save face. Her Husband ‘lent’ the Party £100k+, so if he kept that quiet from her, she is either very naive, useless with money, or was totally ignorant of the Parties and personal finances. Being the Leader of the Party must involve some form of checking over the books,even if only when they have Party Board meetings, so when £650k of ring fenced money has been spent, or has disappeared , alarms bells should have been ringing for years.

@Brucewee that’s an interesting read. The council tax freeze did seem at the time to be inconsistent with oyher policy decisions, in particular on tax.

In which case you might want to read what I wrote about the SNP a few pages back. I’m a committed unionist but I accept the SNP government has done a lot of good things in the past 15 years. In fact if it wasn’t for the independence thing I’d probably vote for them.

And yes, before anyone says, I do get that the “independence thing” is kind of a deal breaker for the SNP. (-:

And Unionism is YOUR deal breaker – basically you’d accept anything for Scotland as long as it had a Jack on it, is that what you’re saying?

And Unionism is YOUR deal breaker – basically you’d accept anything for Scotland as long as it had a Jack on it, is that what you’re saying?

Totally wrong. Though I accept I shouldn’t have used the word “committed”. There are definitely arguments in favour of Scotland being independent. However for me there aren’t nearly enough of them. I want what’s best for Scotland (and indeed the UK given how many friends and family I have in the other parts). So far I haven’t seen enough evidence that breaking up the union would be a good thing.

If supporters of independence put forward sound economic arguments (and similar) I’ll happily listen and debate. What I can’t be bothered with is the “Scotland needs to be free from English rule” drivel.

Of course she did. The accounts hadnt been filed, the Auditor had resigned, even in 2020, money was ‘missing’. The Membership had dropped dramatically, along with income, and they had lied about it to save face.

those “facts” she would, most likely, have been aware of but it doesn’t necessarily follow that she was expecting criminal prosecution to follow, or that it would land quite so close to home.

Her Husband ‘lent’ the Party £100k+, so if he kept that quiet from her, she is either very naive, useless with money, or was totally ignorant of the Parties and personal finances.

so those all seem like reasons that contradict your “of course she did”.   I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”, even then it won’t be that uncommon for a CEO to lend his beloved organisation cash without informing his wife.

Being the Leader of the Party must involve some form of checking over the books,even if only when they have Party Board meetings,

I’m not actually convinced that is the party leaders job.  There’s a treasurer, a ceo, and a president.  The governance is clearly broken but I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured.  I don’t think she has ever signed the accounts.

so when £650k of ring fenced money has been spent, or has disappeared , alarms bells should have been ringing for years.

Disappeared is the wrong word – I don’t think anyone has claimed it disappeared?  It been spent on things which some people believe was outside the scope that it was provided for.  But certainly questions had been asked, and she was aware those questions were being asked.  Given how long it’s taken the police to come to any conclusion I think it’s a bit of a leap to assume that she MUST have known what was happening.