School bullying and autism/ADHD – duty of care?

@convert without wanting to get into an argument here, the incidents and outcomes directly correlate to specific points in law that we have used. They also directly correlate with specific case law in the Upper Tribunal too.

On a “good faith” basis that the OP’s account is truthful (and there’s no reason doubt it),  there’s a solid case to send a good shot across the bows at the school, quoting relevant points and putting the onus on them to fix this rather than face risk of a FTT case and the cost to defend.

It’s something I’m passionate about and happy to signpost anyone to relevant resources, social media groups etc for further advice, but even at that first post, its clear something is very, very wrong and from  my own learning of the law around it, the school are exposed here.

but even at that first post, its clear something is very, very wrong

It really isn’t. Maybe legal action was the way to go in your case, it’s impossible to say that it would be here.

And anyway, it’s not the OP’s kid who was at the centre of it.

Sadly in SEND cases, legal action (or the threat of it) is the only way to get results. Local authorities lose over 98% of SEND Tribunal cases brought against them. Many kids fall through the cracks because of an opaque system that exhausts parents, and the only way to force schools, SLTs and LAs to meet their legal obligations is to go legal. Asking nicely, trying to work together all fail. There’s a reason SEND parents are such fighters – we have to be.

Well, that escalated quickly.

perhaps some awareness sessions of autism and ADHD to the pupils as a whole may help some of them better understand where the kids coming from.

This might bear fruit, you know.  We once had an extraordinary general assembly at my high school, fronted by the Head which was something only reserved for Very Serious issues.  One kid had called another a spaz, and as it turned out he actually was (what we’d call cerebral palsy today I suppose).  It was a proper “oh shit” moment for the assembled kids, that one session of awareness killed that line of bullying stone dead.

This thread doesn’t read especially well….

You son reports that what he perceives as a bad incident has occurred tho’ the school has a reputation for being good with these things.  He’s reported this to a third party , a friend who works in an unknown context with similar children.  Based on these ‘facts’ she’s now got a duty of care.  What does she do as a job to be blunt?

Notice a lack of fact in the above.

You’re going to mention the above? What do you want them to do? What are you going to do if they say ir’s dealt wih , none of your business, or that your son is not seeing the complete picture (to be polite)

If the school have a reputation for being good with these things let them get on with it

the lad received a harsher punishment.

Because he punched someone in the face, the other bully did not punch anyone.

Edit, make that two people a boy and a girl

What are you going to do if they say ir’s dealt wih , none of your business, or that your son is not seeing the complete picture (to be polite)

Then that’s fine, the concern has been raised and they can act on it or not as they see appropriate.

If the school have a reputation for being good with these things let them get on with it

Even good organisations miss stuff or get stuff wrong. The school can’t act if it isn’t aware; or may want to reflect on how they did act. The OP says (in separate posts)

A teacher saw the incident and it appears the lad received a harsher punishment than the other two.

and

“What if this particular teacher is really bad at dealing with this type of issue? Bad kids get away with a lot in her lesson and (autistic/ADHD boy) is an easy target for her.”

and a possible interpretation of that is that the school hasn’t dealt with it, a (possibly substandard) teacher has dealt with it.

I know that’s what-if, but it’s unclear enough that I wouldn’t have a problem in raising to the school so they can deal with it, or tell me they’re aware and have dealt with it.

As I said, I used to be a club Welfare Officer, I’m also a newly appointed trustee for a charity that deals with vulnerable children at times. I haven’t yet re-done my formal training on safeguarding but I opened up the docs I’ve been sent and here’s a couple of salient points about duties of the people that work for the charity in any capacity. I’m sure they’re pretty similar in any sports, cubs, whatever. Notice a lack of facts in the below – particularly the ‘feels wrong’ bit.

Exercise ‘professional curiosity’, including questioning, challenging and raising concerns when something
feels ‘wrong’;

Staff may become aware of, or suspect, harm or abuse when they:
– Witness a harmful or abusive act;
– Are told directly by a child, parent or carer or someone else about harm or abuse to the child;
– Are told something indirect by a child, parent or carer or someone else that leads to suspicion of harm or
abuse to the child

and

Concerns about harm or abuse to a child must always be shared and should be shared as soon as possible.
It is not your responsibility to investigate or verify concerns of harm or abuse.

Now, someone can pick me up on this about whether the incident in the OP is harm or abuse, but the PRINCIPLE is the same, that it’s a duty to flag it and where it goes after is not your concern at that point. Assuming someone else is looking into it or has done it isn’t good enough, particularly to someone trained or professional.

Last night we saw some friends, one of whom works with similarly challenged kids.

Again, to me if someone works with similarly challenged (ADHD, autistic) kids then I’m going to make an assumption they are trained to some degree and therefore have a similar set of expectations as outlined above.

and a possible interpretation of that is that the school hasn’t dealt with it, a (possibly substandard) teacher has dealt with it.

Now, if a teacher has seen an incident of physical assault and no other teacher is involved afterwards my flabber would be well and truly gasted. This sort of thing would go straight to a head of year/head of house and then straight up to SLT. The punishment isn’t mentioned by the op but an exclusion would occur at my school. If the child involved was on the SEN register this may be an internal isolation type exclusion but it would not be down to the teacher who witnessed it to decided punishment unless that teacher was the member of SLT who deals with behaviour and even then others would be involved.

I agree – but playing what if’s, I’m pretty sure that would cause another professional versed in these things to be worried enough to flag it to the school. The OP and follow up isn’t clear enough to know.

Anyway, it wasn’t my intent to particularly discuss the case, much less ‘what-if’ scenarios of it – back to my OP on the subject answering the very specific question of

Can a 3rd party outside the school get involved like this?

The answer is still a big fat

Absolutely. As they said they have a duty to, in fact we all do where we spot such situations, but someone with expertise and responsibility absolutely has a duty to report it appropriately and can face legal or professional sanction for not.

They don’t need to ‘know’ any specific facts, as per other post can be as weak as a feeling. Better over cautious than stuff gets missed.

It is entirely possible the professional friend is an interfering busybody too. And that the school has dealt with this perfectly and their worries are unfounded. Still right to raise them though. And I’d hope that a decent school with a decent policy on this sort of thing would thank them for the concern and say it’s been / being looked into, even if their immediate response is more ‘**** off and leave us alone’

and he punched two of them (a boy and girl) in the face.

Most schools will deal with physical abuse more harshly than verbal abuse regardless of the people involved. Most schools will teach kids that fighting is an absolute line not to be crossed. Most schools will teach kids that they report to a teacher any verbal abuse they’ve received from other kids, and not to take it upon themselves to react to it, or otherwise retaliate. Those are fairly standard SOP for most high schools.

Laddo broke two major rules that are enforced pretty robustly at most schools. I’m not massively surprised that he was dealt with harshly. That the OP’s son is pissed off at this, is to his credit as a mate. They both know now how to deal with any abuse in the future. That’s probably where it should stop.

As a Head of Year for 12 years, been there, done that, and seen/dealt with a number of similar situations.

At the core of this, is the school’s response to that one particular incident. Sanctioning each student in line with the published behaviour policy (meaning the ASD student receives the more serious sanction here) does not automatically make it a discriminatory action and there are usually better ways to resolve/improve things with a decent school without resorting to legal process.

SEN status provides context in these situation, not excuses nor a ‘free pass’. Reasonable adjustments should kick in prior to any potential incident – if this is an ongoing situation then school should have adjusted social times/duties/etc. to try and mitigate. ELSA or similar support could also already be in place.

Reasonable adjustments could be applied to any consequence put in place, but imposing a suspension on an SEN student does not automatically mean the school has discriminated.

All students, SEN status notwithstanding, need to be supported to understand that there are boundaries and consequences when those boundaries are broken.

Bottom line. We don’t have detail of context or what else the school has done so it’s really tough to judge. My concern is that this looks like it could be one of a series of similar events, and the school don’t (again, from our limited information) seem to have a strategy in place to mitigate things. For me, that’s the real potential problem.

Thanks again peeps.

I’m going to chat to the form tutor as I mentioned yesterday, and it looks like I’ve got more context from some of the replies to here to assist with that.

FTR this is one incident, but I’ve heard more than enough about how much the ‘bad’ kids get away with since the start of yr 7. Added to that, my son was implicated in a misdemeanour 3 months ago that resulted in me receiving a call from the deputy head stating he will be issuing an invoice (for repairs) and had CCTV evidence… after gathering my son’s side of the story, I shared it with him and diplomatically made it clear that I would need to see said evidence before settling any costs, and that my stance was based on principles not financials. That was the last I heard of it, which makes me question the legitimacy of how well they supposedly deal with other issues involving bad behaviour – especially as they’re supposed to be very well respected in this area.

Read the first post only, so apologies if anything else has already been said and I’m repeating.

I’m the parent of a similar child to your son’s friend. My lad is 13, diagnosed ADHD (full list, he defines it!) and we are working towards finding out if he is autistic but we strongly suspect he is. He has no empathy, has real problems controlling his emotions. At primary he did not display too many symptoms. In secondary, and following some challenges at his mother’s (leading to him moving in with me), he had real problems. Resulting in similar circumstances as you describe. He was regularly targeted (school have admitted this, too late) due to his extreme response to certain situations, yet seemed to be the only one being punished. He’s spent the whole of year 8 up to this week at a PRU and on a reduced timetable, had essentially no education as the PRU cannot meet his needs. This week he starts at a proper Send school and I cannot have enough hope that it works out.

If there is a 3rd part person who has experience, especially in a workplace environment, with kids like you describe and like my son, then their help could be vital. My experience is that the mainstream school couldn’t and didn’t want to help my son, same goes for the PRU.  Neither have listens to my concerns nor my advice and the result was exactly as I warned them. It’s not easy for them, I understand that, but it’s much more difficult for the kids.

You should give a huge amount of credit to your son for being to kind and caring to a kid who struggles so much and can (if like mine) be quite full on and overwhelming at times. Most kids don’t care, so to have someone to look over those kids with struggles is so incredibly impressive. I hope it works out for all, chances are the school won’t ever change, though, and the kid may be better off elsewhere.

Most schools will deal with physical abuse more harshly than verbal abuse regardless of the people involved. Most schools will teach kids that fighting is an absolute line not to be crossed. Most schools will teach kids that they report to a teacher any verbal abuse they’ve received from other kids, and not to take it upon themselves to react to it, or otherwise retaliate. Those are fairly standard SOP for most high schools.

I’ve often wondered about this.  Surely people realise that getting punched in the face once (and after trying to wind up a vulnerable person over a long period of time) is nothing compared to low level abuse that can carry on over months or even years.

I wonder if the reason it is dealt with more harshly is a variation of the McNamara fallacy.  If you can’t easily observe what is important, make what you can easily observe important.

Punching is easy to observe.  Constant low level torment and abuse is not.

Also, I think your son is an absolute superstar, @spacemonkey.  I’d be very proud if my son should the same empathy and moral values as your son does.

Punching is easy to observe.  Constant low level torment and abuse is not.

I was about to say the same thing in reply before you answered your own question.

Someone said earlier about the punishment for thumping someone being exclusion.  I’ve got to admit, I’m a little surprised by this.  The number of scraps I saw at high school, there would have been more kids excluded than not.  It was easily a weekly occurrence.

Cougar, the 1980’s were a long time ago

Someone said earlier about the punishment for thumping someone being exclusion

Exclusion as punishment is essentially a thing of the past in many (if not all) local authorities in Scotland. You can exclude to give time for planning/risk assessment after a serious incident but not as a punishment.

Cougar, the 1980’s were a long time ago

This is one of the problems with a lot of discussion around education, many people’s experience is out of date.

If you look at other countries you’ll find in many that any sort of formal punishment is a thing of the past.