Would welcome a bit of advice here…

My son is in yr 8. One of his friends (whom he’s known through primary school) is high on the autism/ADHD spectrum and struggles a lot at school, ie disrupting lessons, being bullied etc. He’s a good kid, his parents are lovely but life is tough for them. This week, the lad was provoked – as is often the case – by the usual suspects and he punched two of them (a boy and girl) in the face. A teacher saw the incident and it appears the lad received a harsher punishment than the other two. Now this is not an isolated incident – he’s an easy target, eg kids get him to say and do things that lead him into trouble, and beat him up – and it happens regularly.

My son is getting really pi55ed off with this and doesn’t think the school are supportive enough of kids in in this position (even though they actively promote a strong focus on wellbeing and pastoral care etc). Last night we saw some friends, one of whom works with similarly challenged kids. My son explained what’s been happening and she’s now going to write to the school because she’s worried, and says she has a duty of care.

I’m not saying the lad was right to lash out, but he – and likely others with similar challenges in the same school – suffer a lot. I’ve no idea how much self-control he has – some say he should know better, others say he can’t think rationally etc. So… Can a 3rd party outside the school get involved like this? Can it lead to anything positive? Can schools do more to mitigate these confrontations?

Any pointers appreciated.

I don’t have kids, myself, but I get the impression that schools are failing to protect pupils from bullying, in general.

Like so many other aspects of society, the desire to protect people’s rights has swung too far in the favour of those behaving incorrectly.

Or maybe I’m just getting old and cynical.

It’s not an easy task for the school. Look at it from the other perspective, little Jimmy comes home with a black eye and a 3 day suspension. He says to parent I called a kid a **** and he punched me in the face. He has been given a 1 day suspension.

Bullying is a tough thing to deal with without any concrete evidence.

Difficult we’re  seeing it now from other angle and all we hear about is how kid Y hit so and so today. Every day and someone different being hit incl teachers. Kid Y needs cut some slack given he’s got issues and maybe it’s a response to things done or said to him.  And I can see how his reputation now might mean more likely other kids wind him up. But where do you draw the line. From my selfish angle how much slack do you give when whole class basically in fear of being the one who receives the lashing out. Fortunately our boys not been hit so far anyway. Been like this for months.

Agree with AA.

Also ADHD and Autism (are they formally diagnosed with autism or is it assumed knowledge) are tough things to live with. Getting a label/diagnosis is only the beginning and life will be full of shits trying to pull him apart way beyond when he leaves school. Part of the school’s goals has to be to educate him how to deal with his condition. It’s not a free pass to behave badly and punching people in the face is behaving badly, no matter how much they deserve it. It’s going to be a tough few years for him sadly leading to a trickier life than many have.

That is in no way to condone bullying.

Is the child formally diagnosed with autism & ADHD? if so & their diagnoses are disabling them sufficiently in education the school could support the parents to submit an application for an Education Health Care Plan. The child may also benefit from a Positive Behaviour Support plan in order for them and others to better understand their triggers and find other strategies to avoid crisis situations. How well informed on neurodiversity are the school, perhaps a refresher would assist the staff. The school should be looking at implementing Reasonable Adjustments for a neurodiverse pupil. It’s not ok for pupils to go home having been punched at school.

PS: your friend may need to ring fence their duty of care to the children she works with, she’s acting on what are essentially Chinese whispers to her. The incidents are occuring in an educational setting who are fully aware of what’s happening, it’s not as if she’s stumbled upon abuse occuring and no one is aware, her actions may be detrimental. If the boys parents don’t think it’s being addressed correctly within the school escalate it to the governors.

To answer specific points in the OP from my (semitrained, now lapsed) expertise as a sports club welfare officer.

Can a 3rd party outside the school get involved like this?

Absolutely. As they said they have a duty to, in fact we all do where we spot such situations, but someone with expertise and responsibility being told absolutely has a duty to report it appropriately and can face legal or professional sanction for not. A member of the public – maybe not to the point of sanction but what would you let go hoping someone else would spot and what would cause you to step in. Plenty of cases could have been avoided if only someone hadn’t thought ‘I hope someone has reported that’

Can it lead to anything positive? Can schools do more to mitigate these confrontations?

Yes and yes; certainly the first (don’t know, can’t act or intervene) – the second, I’ll leave schools and teachers and others to add comment as some have above already.

@qwerty – agree there, if I understand what you mean by ringfencing means. Writing to them to say what they have been told, highlighting to the school and then leaving them to act on the (useful, hopefully) info seems appropriate. If based on a second hand 12 or 13 year old’s version of event a louder alarm bell has rung then act more strongly. But they can’t ignore it.

but I get the impression that schools are failing to protect pupils from bullying, in general.

The notion that you can protect kids from bullying is flawed. Obviously schools should try to do this and have procedures in place but it’s always going to happen.

PS: your friend may need to ring fence their duty of care to the children she works with, she’s acting on what are essentially Chinese whispers to her. The incidents are occuring in an educational setting who are fully aware of what’s happening, it’s not as if she’s stumbled upon abuse occuring and no one is aware, her actions may be detrimental.

This. The school will quite rightly refuse to discuss the incident with a third party and if she’s in that line of work herself she should know that.

But they can’t ignore it

If they’ve followed relevant procedures they pretty much can ignore it. Or at least simply issue a very brief reply. “Thank you for your concern but we are not at liberty to discuss matters like this with third parties “

By they, I mean the friend, sorry if that was confusing.

The school can act exactly as you said. Nowhere did I say the school has to take the concerned friend into the process, just that the friend has a duty to say something if (as per the OP) they are worried by what they have been told.

If they aren’t worried of course they don’t have to act. But they are, that’s my point.

Cheers peeps.

I think the comments so far indicate this is not a simple situation and the bigger picture is always going to be complex.

Yes, the boy has been formally diagnosed but the parents have been refused entry to a more suitable school. The current school is known for taking a strong stance on bullying, wellbeing etc, but I can’t testify to how well that is applied because I only hear through the ears and eyes of 12-13yr olds.

I’m wondering if the person our friend addresses her concern to might make a difference, eg is writing to the Head going to make the most noise?

By they, I mean the friend, sorry if that was confusing.

For someone from another establishment to raise a concern it would need to be a genuine child protection issue. If it’s something less than that they should stay out of it.

Like I said, the friend was worried enough to be writing a letter, which seems to me to be appropriate. What honestly is the alternative? “I’ve heard some stuff that worries me but I’m not in full possession of the facts so I won’t say anything at all”?

There’s a statutory and/or professional obligation to report concerns, the only consideration is whether what they were told triggered a concern. We can argue about whether their threshold is right and the OP hasn’t given enough detail about their son’s explanation of what has been happening to really judge that by our own thresholds but if it triggers a concern there is then no option for the friend to ignore.

After that ball is back with the school to respond or not as they feel appropriate. And almost 100% certainly it won’t involve the friend in the follow up

I’m wondering if the person our friend addresses her concern to might make a difference, eg is writing to the Head going to make the most noise?

I’ll caveats this by saying it’s possible there is something in what your son told her that rang real alarm bells.

However, just take a moment to think about what such a correspondence would look like. A letter or email regarding a child from a friend of the parent of that child’s friend. What do the kid in questions parents think about this? The more I think about it, the more I think it’s potentially a very bad idea.

only hear through the ears and eyes of 12-13yr olds.

This is the source of a huge amount of misinformation. Kids get stuff wrong in all sorts of ways and are rarely in possession of all the facts. They certainly won’t have the full picture of how the incident has been dealt with.

Wot jonv said.

This is the source of a huge amount of misinformation. Kids get stuff wrong in all sorts of ways and are rarely in possession of all the facts. They certainly won’t have the full picture of how the incident has been dealt with.

For sure. Still better to flag than not and then wish you had.

What honestly is the alternative? “I’ve heard some stuff that worries me but I’m not in full possession of the facts so I won’t say anything at all”?

Like you say, it depends on the details but this is definitely an option. ‘Stuff that worries me’ could be everything from ‘i’d have handled that differently’ to evidence of harm. As qwerty points out, the school has dealt with the incident.

Ok, I vehemently disagree that’s an option particularly to a professional with statutory and/or professional obligations. If they are at all worried the incident hasn’t been dealt with properly, it’s then a duty, not a choice of options.

Ok, I vehemently disagree that’s an option particularly to a professional with statutory and/or professional obligations. If they are at all worried the incident hasn’t been dealt with properly, it’s then a duty, not a choice of option

It’s not a duty if it’s just a matter of disagreeing with how the incident was handled. It is a duty if you think a child may have or could in the future be harmed.

Like I said, the friend was worried enough to be writing a letter, which seems to me to be appropriate. What honestly is the alternative? “I’ve heard some stuff that worries me but I’m not in full possession of the facts so I won’t say anything at all”?

There’s a statutory and/or professional obligation to report concerns, the only consideration is whether what they were told triggered a concern.

Previously on STW we’ve had similar discussions to this, only around adult behaviour.  “My neighbour does such-and-such, should I report it?  It might be nothing.”

To my mind, it’s a mistake to think that by reporting a potential crime or, in this case, incidents at school we are also acting as judge jury and executioner so it’s best not to make a fuss.  Stick to the facts, such as we know them, leave emotion at the door.  It is then up to the school to decide what, if any, further action needs to be taken based on information provided.  They might decide everything is tickity-boo.  But they absolutely will not take action over any incidents they’re unaware of.

How many other parents of school friends might be hearing the same story (or a totally different one) from their kids?

My son just explained the incident in detail because he saw the whole thing, and asked me “What if this particular teacher is really bad at dealing with this type of issue? Bad kids get away with a lot in her lesson and (autistic/ADHD boy) is an easy target for her.”

If that’s the case, then maybe this teacher isn’t up to the expected standard.

Either way, I’ve said that I’m going to schedule an EOY catch up call with his tutor and mention this along with my concerns for the bigger picture (on behalf of the wellbeing of all pupils). This way, there’s no 3rd party intervention.

This way, there’s no 3rd party intervention.

Sensible.

Stuff like this has brought back memories of the torrid time our son had at school 30 odd years ago.He was placed in a special school from 5 until by the age of 11 he had worked so hard they decided he could move to a mainstream school.. That’s when the problems started, other kids had formed friendships and the special school was seen by the mainstream kids as ripe for every type of bullying going .

They used to wind him up knowing he would react and get sent out of class . Lost count the number of times we had to go to the school about it , but never were the little shits who started ever disciplined even though the school knew who they were.

It followed him out of school and his sister and me.

Whenever we were out there was always name calling because I was his dad or daughter was his sister . It continued long after he left school with the bullies younger siblings who never knew our son . One day I snapped when a group of kids were hurling abuse as I cycled through town . I have chased , they scattered I caught one of them

He said ” It wasn’t me ” I replied I don’t care which one of you it was I’m fed up with it , you don’t know our son have never met him wouldn’t know what he looks like just pass the message on I’ve had this crap for over 10 years just give it a test . After that it stopped thankfully.

OP you have my sympathy kids are horrible sometimes.

My son was diagnosed with autism about a year ago and is in year 7. His school manages SEND children particularly well. He has a designated staff member in the SEN team he can approach with any problems, and an area he can go to de-stress. All the staff do regular training and they are prepared to be flexible with some things (e.g. homework) when it helps. They also have lessons with the children that cover SEND topics. So I would say the school has a big role to play in this.

There’s definitely a role for 3rd parties too – including parents. We can (and do) speak to the SEN team when we feel there are matters that he is struggling with and they are usually acted on. I do recognise that original description (“the lad was provoked – as is often the case – by the usual suspects” and “he’s an easy target”) – that’s what we experienced at primary school where the SEN support was less well resourced (not surprisingly as it was a much smaller operation).

I would also say that things that happen outside school can also have a bearing. By the end of the day his emotional batteries are usually drained, especially if he’s been masking all day, so he’s much more likely to respond badly to being provoked. So we try to make sure that he gets proper time to rest and recharge his batteries once he’s home from school.

“Yes, the boy has been formally diagnosed but the parents have been refused entry to a more suitable school.”

If the boy and his parents wish to move to a more suitable school catering more specifically for additional needs then they’ll need to evidence that his current school can’t meet his needs as listed in his EHCP, this often involves taking the Local Authority to court in a tribunal, the additional complexity to this is the cost which only makes it accessible to those who can fund it, its expensive. Those with get more, those without get less.

Diagnosis or not, Equality Act 2010 protects him here.

This is very clear disability discrimination by the school – s15, s20, s21 breaches as a minimum, arguably harrasment too.

Feel free to PM me and I’ll gladly share a ton of resources and sample letters from our own legal battle with a school for our son.

Kids will always be horrible to other kids and bullying it won’t stop, how we manage bullying can always evolve.

Kids these days are more broadminded than my generation in regard to neurodiversity, gender identity etc, perhaps some awareness sessions of autism and ADHD to the pupils as a whole may help some of them better understand where the kids coming from. You won’t always reach them all, but it may assist with what his peers deem acceptable in terms of classroom etiquette etc.

This is very clear disability discrimination by the school – s15, s20, s21 breaches as a minimum, arguably harrasment too.

That’s a very strong statement based on not a lot of information, much of which is second or third hand.

@spin – I’ve got no problem making strong statements in this situation. We should be looking at this through the lens of the affected child, they’re the person that matters here.

Ultimately if a few scary letters and the fear of escalation force the hand if the school to support this lad, then all good.

The problem with your “strong statement” is you are making very (overly) confident assertions like “This is very clear disability discrimination by the school” on the basis of an incredibly brief third hand summary of event you know no more about, originating from the mouth of one 12 year old boy who is emotionally invested.

Yes, there might well be more the school could be doing. There might well be more that the school are doing that our 12 year witness is not privy to. And yes, the OP’s friend who is going to write to the school will do no harm and might well do some good. But overly certain comments such as your based on as little as you have at you disposal certainly are not.

Hard disagree – and I make thus statement on the basis of 2 1/2 years of battling it, learning case law, the anticipatory requirements of EA2010 and more. Failing to proactively make adjustments and adaptations to policies, or applying behaviour/disciplinary policies that disadvantage a child whose condition makes it harder for them to adhere to those policies, is discrimination. It’s very, very clear in law, and sadly not enough parents have the means or the knowledge to force the system to meet its obligations.

I’d be more than happy to look at the specifics of this, overlay it with our own experience, the relevant case aspects and our barrister’s submissions if that helps OP 👍

perhaps some awareness sessions of autism and ADHD to the pupils as a whole may help some of them better understand where the kids coming from

I think the problem here is that whilst there is a statutory PHSE curriculum, neurodiversity is not part of it and it’s up to the school whether it’s covered or not. Some schools are better then others when it comes to this…

Northernsoul – Ofsted would like to see a school reacting proactively to peer on peer abuse so it could be implemented by the schools Designated Safeguarding Lead separate to the curriculum. It may assist all the children involved (or not) and would give the school a nice safeguarding case study to present to Ofsted.

I make thus statement on the basis of 2 1/2 years of battling it, learning case law, the anticipatory requirements of EA2010 and more. Failing to proactively make adjustments and adaptations to policies, or applying behaviour/disciplinary policies that disadvantage a child whose condition makes it harder for them to adhere to those policies, is discrimination.

How do you know the school hasn’t made adjustments to their policy?

As per OP, the lad received a harsher punishment. That’s all that’s needed in law.

Northernsoul – Ofsted would like to see a school reacting proactively to peer on peer abuse so it could be implemented by the schools Designated Safeguarding Lead separate to the curriculum.

Fair point – in my child’s school PHSE is on the curriculum for Y7 but is covered in form lessons after that and so delivered in a different way, but they do address neurodiversity directly. My point was more one of what is statutory vs what is actually addressed (which is usually more than statutory but varies).

Hard disagree – and I make thus statement on the basis of 2 1/2 years of battling it, learning case law, the anticipatory requirements of EA2010 and more. Failing to proactively make adjustments and adaptations to policies, or applying behaviour/disciplinary policies that disadvantage a child whose condition makes it harder for them to adhere to those policies, is discrimination. It’s very, very clear in law, and sadly not enough parents have the means or the knowledge to force the system to meet its obligations.

You are making my case for me. You clearly feel very passionately about this and your direct experience, and well done you for making a difference in your specific case. But to overlay your experience directly on top of the one on the OP without having the self effacement to appreciate you do not know enough about this specific situation beyond a summary of a 12 year old’s account  to make categorical statements is diminishing your contribution.

A more positive contribution would be to empathise with the op, then tell the narrative of your experience and what actions were taken to make positive change.