Roits in Manchester?

He was quickly to become “untazed” and would no doubt quickly return to the fray.

Pure supposition. The officer who tazed him retains control of the taser that’s still attached to him and can “retaze” him if necessary.

“a fight he had to win.”

Potentially fighting for his life, almost definitely fighting for control of his sidearm. He loses control of that & then the trouble could really start. What’s the saying? “Carried by 6 or tried by 12”….not a nice position to be in.

“The officer who tazed him retains control of the taser that’s still attached to him and can “retaze” him if necessary.”

You’re assuming the tazer is still effective..

The scrote on the floor was mobile in seconds after the tasing. Pond you’re just proving the point I made earlier.

Be incredibly useful to have the full picture though I doubt it’ll help excusing the kick & stamp. They do seem excessive.

It’s an ex-copper talking through the incident – I’ll see if I can screenshot it…

From here it doesn’t look as though my pictures are posting. 🙁

In summary, misuse of force doesn’t excuse the crime and vice versa. The person who was kicked and stamped clearly committed a deplorable crime, but if it wasn’t necessary and proportionate, the kick/stamp needs to be held to account. Him “deserving” it is irrelevant, it’s not the officer’s role to decide that – what is relevant is that the man was tasered and incapacitated, so the key fact is how long from tasering to the kick, if immediate the officer may claim necessity, if long enough to realise the suspect was incapacited it becomes an uneccessary and potentially lethal use of force, and a breach of the duty of care they owe to the tasered man. When deploying taser, target is red-dotted and warned, when fired it makes a loud, rapid clicking noise, target usually makes an involuntary noise and stops talking/shouting, they fall to the floor in a distinctice, stiff manner. The barbs stay in him and the person holding it can hit them with another charge if required – they are under control. Personal restraint is crucial, possibly the hardest test an officer faces, but this is an incredibly complex case, it’s not about being pro/anti-police.

Sorry for the length, that’s about 16 tweets summarised! Just thought it was interesting, in light of all the “he deserved it/it was understandable/in another country he’d have been shot” outpourings.

You’re assuming the tazer is still effective..

He was certainly still lying stationary on the floor…

The scrote on the floor was mobile in seconds after the tasing. Pond you’re just proving the point I made earlier.

… maybe watch it again, the ONLY movement he made after clearly being tased was to slowly turn his head just in time to stop a boot in the chops.

Edit – actually, I’ll correct that; he goes from fully rigid to slumped, presumably as the taser is… turned off? He then slowly turns his head just in time to stop a boot in the chops.

Guy attempts to beat up a cop and complains he got a kicking in return?

What’s that quote from Max & Paddy?  You play with feathers, you get your arse tickled.

“but this is an incredibly complex case, ”

Very much so. There is much to unravel & many with an axe to grind or not enough  patience to wait & see.

Watch the full sequence he clearly moves his arms and legs quickly after the tasing. It’s also quite possible the officer who kicked him didn’t know he had been tased.

Watch the full sequence he clearly moves his arms and legs quickly after the tasing.

Are you watching a different video to me? The video that I’m looking at very much does not clearly show that.

Will try to embed it…

<failed embed link removed 🙁 >

Failing that, it’s on this page –

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gekjyq3j7o

a breach of the duty of care they owe to the tasered man

I don’t know about you, but I doubt I’d be feeling too much of a ‘duty of care’ to someone who 3 seconds earlier had repeatedly punched me really ****ing hard in the head

It’s clearer on one of the original videos, that one stops before the stamp.

I don’t know about you, but I doubt I’d be feeling too much of a ‘duty of care’ to someone who 3 seconds earlier had repeatedly punched me really ****ing hard in the head

What you think you would feel is irrelevant.

What you think you would feel is irrelevant.

Hardly. It’s about understanding and empathising with instinctive human reactions, in this case in a situation where someone is genuinely facing a threat to their life.

These people aren’t robots. No matter what the training you’ve had, emotions of the ‘fight or flight’ nature are going to kick in big time and that’s going to dictate your reaction

Like everyone I was absolutely appalled when I saw the initial footage (which is exactly how Mr Dodgy Lawyer wanted me to feel), now that I’ve seen the context I regard the coppers actions somewhat differently, to say the least

Hardly. It’s about understanding and empathising with instinctive human reactions, in this case in a situation where someone is genuinely facing a threat to their life.

Like everyone I was absolutely appalled when I saw the initial footage, now that I’ve seen the context I regard the coppers actions somewhat differently

I understand and I empathise. Nevertheless, the officer’s actions are no less appalling now than they were before this footage emerged.

Is the officer who issued the kick the one that got dragged down when the suspect was tased? If so, he had time to get to his feet, draw down his own taser on the suspect and there is then a clear pause before he kicks out. There was no threat – that was red mist. I understand why, I even empathise – it’s still appalling

So, 2 thugs violently assault members of the public, then when the police attempt to arrest them for this, they kick off a massive ruck, brutally attack a number of officers, including singling out two female officers who are punched repeatedly, full force in the face?

They then have their lawyer release edited and totally misleading video to depict this, completely inaccurately as an unprovoked racist attack, exploiting existing tensions and provoking protests in the streets which could have turned nasty very easily? Rochdale could very well have erupted into violence like Leeds did last week.

You’ll have to excuse me while I go and get the worlds smallest violin for the ‘boo-hoo, poor me’ routine for one of them getting a kick in the head for his troubles

I think I’ve already said it’s irrelevant how you feel.

With regard to Taser, depending on which model of Taser used, you generally need at least 2 probes connected for it to be effective. Often, when someone hits the ground one or both probes can become detached, meaning the Taser is no longer effective.

Your choices would be to then either deploy again using a different cartridge if you’ve got one left, or use an angled drive stun with the hope you make a circuit with a still attached probe.

This officer may have already used his spare cartridge and he may not have any other probes attached.

So, given that this officer is trying to detain this male alone (one officer is “crowd control” & two others have been incapacitated and/or detaining the original male) what does he do?

We’ve seen the level of violence the lad is willing to use, he looks young strong, agile… given his speed I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s boxed at some point. What does that officer do to detain that male?

Does he  use his Taser again? Not an option if he’s run out of cartridges. Does he continually activate it if the probes are still attached, until someone can help him & put cuffs on? Or does he sit on him using his Taser to angle drive stun, which has the potential to burn straight through your skin? Which by the way fboth these options could be considered torture under Article 3 ECHR.

Or does he disengage & hope the male is now more interested in escaping, not dishing out more broken noses, and leave him for another day?

What does he do?

Had there been another officer not  otherwise engaged, they could’ve maybe used their Taser (if they had one – not everyone does). There doesn’t appear to be any spare officers. They can also “detain under power”, meaning if Taser is effective you can activate it long enough to put them in cuffs. Again nobody spare.

So what does he do?

All this is spinning round his head as it’s all unfolding in just a few seconds.

I am guessing here (because I wasn’t there), but that officer was in survival mode. YES firearms officers are trained in weapon retention, and IF someone is trying to grab your gun you can be sure it’s not to tickle you with it… but he’s now got a dilemma – common sense would tell you to not get that close, maintain your reactionary gap. I think we’re past that point. He’s still a cop and there is a social imperative to detain that male. The Police cannot ignore a crime, especially if it’s happening right there in front of them.

So what should he do?

“If it is indeed the case, thankfully the police federation have a very generous compensation plan in place which is between £12,990 and £28220 for a broken nose, as it is classed as a severe injury.

If theres a moderate case of PTSD from it, we can add another £10,000-£30,000 on top of that. Moderately severe it starts at 30k and goes up to 70k.”

That’s just completely untrue. I get that you’ve now adjusted it when you realise it’s all from a personal injury lawyer on a no win no fee basis, but you need to stop presenting your “thoughts” , guesswork & opinion as fact.

Please point me to a source for any of this. Admittedly retired, but I haven’t heard of “a very generous compensation plan”, never mind with those figures.

You haven’t because there isn’t one – never was & never will be.

Having suffered broken bones, deep cuts, delicate testicles & have permanent scars on the surface of my eyes from having grit thrown in my face the Police no longer get anything from CICA because in their words “the job of a police officer is inherently risky and personal injury is to be expected as part of their job”.

I can see why the copper did it but there’s no chance he’s getting away with stamping on the crim’s head, regardless of the situation.

“There was no threat………”

Easy to say watching on the internet. The “threat” was going to detain individuals who were wanted for previous violence, who then became violent to multiple armed police all while you are surrounded by a crowd who are shouting at you, you are not able to run away like many would. Just because 1 person was on the floor does not indicate there was no threat, the situation certainly was not under control at that moment and was still kicking off around him and all happening very fast in a matter of seconds where you make your decision in the moment, not after reviewing the situation from a sofa. Add in whatever other assumptions you want from feared for his life, though he may lose his weapon, thought the crowd were going to join in, thought the public around were at risk, last time he was faced with a similar scenario he was not forceful enough and got injured etc etc (who knows what was going through his head) already said he is lucky he was not shot at this stage, I think that showed restraint.

Another thing to consider is the fact that this case is now being weaponised by not only clowns like Lee Anderson, but also genuinely dangerous people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and his delightful followers

The potential repercussions of this are enormous, which the perpetrators clearly couldn’t give a toss about when they released their totally misleading video ‘evidence’

Any more word from the oily lawyer? He’s properly gone to ground after lighting the blue touch paper, hasn’t he?

Other than the violence shown in both videos, I do think the most depressing thing about this is how such such an incendiary video like the first one can be released so easily  across the mainstream media.

More so because those that supplied the video (and many of those that published it) would have been aware there was a lot more context to that small clip, and also been aware of how a clip proporting to show unprovoked police brutality/ assault against a member of a minority community could incite further acts of violence.

Ultimately blame and any relevant criminal charges for all involved should only be decided after the full story comes out and a full investigation has been done.

Trail by media seems more and more common and is a dangerous slippery slope IMO.

I would say props to Andy Burnham for being even handed in his response.

I’m not even sure how the lawyer had the audacity to do what he did knowing that this was going to be presented, i thought the videos of how it all started would potentially change minds, but what has been released it pretty much as bad as you can get, i mean full blooded assaults on armed police, in an area of high security, what were they thinking would be the outcome, beat up three police officers and then just nip off home?!

With regard to Taser, depending on which model of Taser used, you generally need at least 2 probes connected for it to be effective. Often, when someone hits the ground one or both probes can become detached, meaning the Taser is no longer effective.

The last video linked is suggestive that the suspect “relaxed” from the taser being switched off after lying prone and tense for a moments – looks like about five seconds after initially being tased?

Your choices would be to then either deploy again using a different cartridge if you’ve got one left, or use an angled drive stun with the hope you make a circuit with a still attached probe.

Pretty sure they guy delivering the kick hadn’t fired his taser at that point, he seems to draw it on the guy in the grey shirt but not fire it, he then draws down on the blue shirt guy on standing after being dragged down by the falling, tasered suspect.

This officer may have already used his spare cartridge and he may not have any other probes attached.

So, given that this officer is trying to detain this male alone (one officer is “crowd control” & two others have been incapacitated and/or detaining the original male) what does he do?

Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.

We’ve seen the level of violence the lad is willing to use, he looks young strong, agile… given his speed I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s boxed at some point. What does that officer do to detain that male?

He’s lying face down on the floor, you’ll know much better than me but is a kick to the head of a prone suspect a trained method of detention?

Does he  use his Taser again? Not an option if he’s run out of cartridges. Does he continually activate it if the probes are still attached, until someone can help him & put cuffs on? Or does he sit on him using his Taser to angle drive stun, which has the potential to burn straight through your skin? Which by the way fboth these options could be considered torture under Article 3 ECHR.

Bit Schrodinger’s Policeman… 🙂

Or does he disengage & hope the male is now more interested in escaping, not dishing out more broken noses, and leave him for another day?

What does he do?

Again, the suspect is tased, prone and motionless.

Had there been another officer not  otherwise engaged, they could’ve maybe used their Taser (if they had one – not everyone does). There doesn’t appear to be any spare officers. They can also “detain under power”, meaning if Taser is effective you can activate it long enough to put them in cuffs. Again nobody spare.

So what does he do?

I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.

All this is spinning round his head as it’s all unfolding in just a few seconds.

I am guessing here (because I wasn’t there), but that officer was in survival mode. YES firearms officers are trained in weapon retention, and IF someone is trying to grab your gun you can be sure it’s not to tickle you with it… but he’s now got a dilemma – common sense would tell you to not get that close, maintain your reactionary gap. I think we’re past that point. He’s still a cop and there is a social imperative to detain that male. The Police cannot ignore a crime, especially if it’s happening right there in front of them.

So what should he do?

Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. Ultimately, it looks like he eventually drops a knee on his back, not sure if he then goes on to cuff him?

Easy to say watching on the internet. The “threat” was going to detain individuals who were wanted for previous violence, who then became violent to multiple armed police all while you are surrounded by a crowd who are shouting at you, you are not able to run away like many would. Just because 1 person was on the floor does not indicate there was no threat, the situation certainly was not under control at that moment and was still kicking off around him and all happening very fast in a matter of seconds where you make your decision in the moment, not after reviewing the situation from a sofa. 

Please don’t misunderstand, I’m very aware that I’m viewing this from across a galaxy-width of safety net, and I speak only from the video evidence. Within that context, if the suggestion is that the kick may have been justified by the potential threat from the suspect on the floor, I disagree – I also don’t think that’s why the officer kicked him, but I appreciate that’s purely subjective.

The potential repercussions of this are enormous, which the perpetrators clearly couldn’t give a toss about when they released their totally misleading video ‘evidence’

Are you suggesting the initial footage is not representative? 🙂 Pretty sure you can see the guys who filmed it in the background of this most recent CCTV footage, they didn’t start filming until after it kicked off – I don’t think the footage has been cut, I just don’t think they started filming until quite late in the day. As has been noted elsewhere, it escalated rapidly.

Some quotes from Andy Bunham today, my bold:

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham said after the release of the new footage “this is a complicated situation with two sides to it” and urged people “not to rush to judgement”.

Mr Burnham said: “Following incidents in the run-up to the footage people have seen, four individuals were arrested and are now on police bail. It is frustrating that we have not been able to put more video into the public domain but that is because this is a live investigation.

“People now need to step back and allow the IOPC’s [Independent Office for Police Conduct’s) criminal investigation into the officer’s conduct to move forward, alongside the parallel GMP investigation into other potential offences, so that a complete picture can be presented.

“Given all these investigations are ongoing, it would not be appropriate to comment further.”

The mayor said there were three stages to the incident, with a prior dispute taking place on a plane before the footage seen by the public.

He told Sky News on Sunday: “It’s a complicated situation, a very violent situation, actually, and there were issues on both sides.

“That’s why I asked other people not to rush to judgement because of the complexity of it and, simply, everyone who’s having their say, nobody has got all of the facts. Nobody is in possession of the complete picture.”

I’m not even sure how the lawyer had the audacity to do what he did knowing that this was going to be presented, i thought the videos of how it all started would potentially change minds, but what has been released it pretty much as bad as you can get, i mean full blooded assaults on armed police, in an area of high security, what were they thinking would be the outcome, beat up three police officers and then just nip off home?!

I suspect what we’ve seen is not the start of the incident – they pretty much walk up and grab the suspect, no “excuse me” or attempt to establish identity, which seems quite a hard approach by armed police. So who knows what else will come out.

Irrespective, the kick and stamp are grossly uneccessary.

Some quotes from Andy Bunham today, my bold:

Entirely fair.

Pondo, have you ever been involved in a quickly escalating violent situation? I’m guessing from your posts that you haven’t. Training only goes so far, adrenaline kicks in and things go to shit very quickly. Instinct takes over and I’m still reserving judgement until I know the full story. At this stage I think the scrote on the floor got off lightly considering it was armed police he was **** with.

Like this? God no.

That kick/stamp wasn’t instinctive.

At this stage I think the scrote on the floor got off lightly considering it was armed police he was **** with.

Indeed. As somebody has already pointed out, there are plenty of countries (the majority, I’d imagine) where if you even thought about starting that level of shit with armed police in an airport, you’d almost certainly now be dead

I’d think that if you did that in an American airport they’d still be scraping bits of you off the walls

And repeating it once more makes it no more relevant than it was previously.

Sadly amused by the number of people who rightly say things like…

I’m still reserving judgement

… then go on to make judgemental observations. 🙂

Like this? God no.

I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.

I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.

I’m wandering if  TikTok influencing solicitor hasn’t had a whisper in his shell from the Law Society about his media reaction without viewing more of the evidence.

I certainly won’t hire him now.

The lawyer comes across really poorly when interviewed.

Watching the full video, those lads are obviously regularly using violence.

I feel more sympathy for the policeman now, his two female colleagues have been taken out of the picture and he’s dealing with 2 violent thugs, who know how to handle themselves and are possibly up to their eyeballs in coke, judging by their immediate violent reactions.

He was wrong in what he did though and he should face the consequences but I now hope he doesn’t get the sack.

I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.

Opinions is the operative word there. Instinctive is quick, without thought – this guy was bowled over by a tasered suspect (said taser fired and clicking away right by his head), got up from the floor, drew down on the motionless suspect with his own taser, paused, kicked then stamped the prone suspect’s head. That for me is not instinctive, it’s red mist “you bastard” retribution. Your opinion differs, and that’s fine – we can have different opinions.

I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.

Armed police who just grabbed him from behind. Did they announce their presence? Did he know who they were? Is he himself already angry and tense after a previous confontation? Lots of talk about him attacking armed police – looks to me like two of the three he hit engaged him first, and the only one he attacked was the one pointing a weapon at his brother (the guy who subsequently kicked him in the head, I think). Just as I don’t believe the police officer should be excused because he got hit, there’s no excuse for the suspect to be fighting with the police, but if there are calls to understand the policeman’s motives in light of this most recent video, it would be hypocritical and counterproductive not to do the same for the suspect.

“Scrote”, I think, is pretty judgemental.

I was very critical of the police action after seeing the initial mobile footage. Once you see the full incident a few things stand out

2 people who went from 0-100 in seconds

2 people who were not afraid to use extreme violence against the police

2 people who were clearly trained in combat, likely boxing, and extremely strong and capable

They had incapacitated members of the police group who were now taken out of the situation and we’re no help to the remaining officers

They were attacking the officers from all sides

The officers were surrounded by a mob with no idea if they would join in

The officers were likely reluctant to go to ground to control the suspects in case of more attacks from behind etc.

The kick was delivered at the height of the chaos, not after the situation had calmed down. Man on the ground still posed a huge threat

A hellish situation to be in. I suspect the officer will lose their job, but given everything that was happening, a kick to the head wasn’t unreasonable to ensure a serious threat to their safety was subdued. It’s not pretty, but if he’d kneeled on his back and delivered punches to the head to subdue him, it wouldn’t be nearly as controversial. Head kicks carry huge shock value.