Road Riding – faster on hills than the flat

I’ve been doing more road riding this year and started riding on group rides. I’ve noticed I can be struggling to hang on to the pace on the flat but then once the road kicks up I’ll be off leaving folk behind (without feeling particularly like I’ve gone hard at it). My assumption is that this is just because that’s what I’m more used to from a mountain bike background, the flat bits are just transitions between the interesting bits. I’m just wondering if anyone can offer more of an explanation?

Is it psychological and I’m just holding back to much on the flat and giving too much on the climbs?

Or is it physiological, my power to weight ratio/power to frontal area ratio/muscle conditioning is better suited to climbing? It’s not like my bike/riding kit is any different to those I’m riding with and I’ve got a tucked position.

And then how do I get faster on the flat? Just go out and ride faster/push a bigger gear?

I don’t know the answer, but I’ve just discovered the same thing myself. Riding on the road with guys I regularly ride off-road with, and I’m struggling to keep up on the flats, but uphill I’ll start to pull away.

Off-road no issues keeping up wherever the trail points.

I think it’s a power to weight thing, off-road is rarely flat, so ability to maintain momentum and flow compensates for lack of power, but on the road there’s nowhere to hide.

That’s my theory anyway, just need to figure out how to increase power.

its power to weight. My guess is you are lighter than the rest of the group so your power to weight helps you out on the climbs. On the flat its a more level playing field, so the bigger guys who put out more power will leave you behind.

I’m fat and quicker on the flat, I imagine you are less fat.

I find it nice and easy to keep a high cadence up (around 90rpm) on the flat and with that becomes a (relatively) decent bit of speed.

3rd power to weight. I have found the same. I think it’s also why when riding off road , but not DH course I like a light basic rigid bike as I notice the extra weight more that someone bigger as it’s proportionaly more.

yep same here. I’m small and light, 60kg. There’s no way I can keep up with bigger guys that have thighs the size of my body on the flat sections, but come to a hill and they can’t seem to push their additional weight up it. I like a light bike as I really notice the difference on a heavy bike. Same if if ride home from work carrying my rucksack which can weigh about 6.5kg, I really really notice the additional weight.

I think it’s part psychological – riding at a decent tempo on rolling road feels like a proper effort if you’re not used to it, but for roadmen it’s an easy thing to do.

I notice this on MTB sportive-type events where you’ll have mixed terrain – riding round with guys of similar fitness I can get dropped on tarmac sections, but return the favour on the dirt. And I’m not talking about technical stuff, hilly roads etc, just the experience of knowing what going hard feels like / what’s sustainable on road v dirt makes a difference.

Same for me on the road, at 55kg I have quite an advantage going uphill but I can struggle to keep up on the flat. Aerobically I’m fine it just seems that no matter how hard I try to push myself the legs have only so much power and on the flat absolute power is more important than power to weight ratio.

Probably just not used to sustained efforts, i had the same problem and have managed to up my performance on the flat by just grinding in the hours. This year ive managed a bit more pace by getting my positioning sorted a bit lower which helps.

Is it cadence? I find that I can spin uphill fairly easily and for ages at my normal MTB grinding pace of 70ish, but on the flat tarmac at 80-90 my legs start fatiguing pretty quickly even though the overall effort per minute is roughly the same.

Maybe cadence? I’m like you, I can climb with the best (in my club, not the world!) but get dropped on the flat. I think when going up hill at, say, 60rpm I can make enough power to go well but on the flats I can’t sustain 120+rpm like some of them can, I’m a gear grinder, they all spin really well and I really loose out on the downhill bits, once it gets above about 27/28mph I’m maxed out and they’re still pushing to 35+. Check their leg speed and gearing next time you’re out with them.

I’m quite heavy  and climb “faster” than some roadies only to be left for dead on the flat…. Simon Richardson (who started on the mtb) of gcn commented on when he turned pro how slowly the peloton would climb but how quick it was on the flat.

on the flat absolute power is more important than power to weight ratio.

That’s because on the flat, wind resistance is the main factor – hence drafting –  whereas on climbs, it’s gravity. If you ever ride on Zwift, it’s fascinating being able to see other riders’ watts per kilo, raw wattage and – from that – to be able to extrapolate their weight.

As in real life, a light rider putting out, say, 5 watts per kilo, can be dropped on the flat by a heavier rider putting out more outright power, but a significantly lower watts per kilo figure.

But… all other things being equal, I think it’s just harder to put out power constantly on the flat compared to climbs, even tougher on descents where you have to push harder to find resistance. I just get bored on flat stuff, which is as psychological as it comes really.

You need to learn to wheelsuck… tuck in behind (really close) the bigger riders and feel yourself coasting along.  If you’ve come from the mountain bike, you won’t be used to doing this.

I sometimes miss being to check people w/kg in real life, makes judging whether to chase them or let them go harder.

Power to weight is certainly important but I weigh 80kg and was more better up hills than on the flat. Psychological and it’s easier to put a big effort in uphill than on the flat.

Lots of time on Zwift and I’m now much improved on the flat and can hang with the fast boys. When they start sprinting off though when in the middle of a long effort I’m toast. Hills are still easier in my head though.

My friend and i hired decent road bikes for a trip, he is 9 stone, at the time i was closer to 17st, for us to both go up the same 14% climb, he was putting out 187 watts, i was putting 412 watts to stay with him.

Weirdly i often find i am faster singlespeed than i am with gears, i think because when i have gears i was used to always pushing a hard gear with low cadence, when i am on SS, i tend to spin on flats more and attack hills more, rather than riding them sat down and going through the gears.

It’s really interesting when you look at the physics of it.

There are three parts to an equation governing the speed of a bike and rider.

1st part is rolling resistance/drivetrain losses (these are pretty negligible if bike is set up well and tyres pumped up properly).

2nd is air resistance which is squared with velocity and above 15mph becomes the governing factor exponentially

3rd is working against gravity, which on the flat is non existant.

All three elements get added together.

As a result-

Bigger power output generally goes fastest on flat (although different riders in different positions can have slight different drag co-efficients, hence why tt bikes are quicker at speeds) but as a rule, more power output = fastest rider on flat.

When going uphill the steeper it gets the more the gravitational part becomes the governing factor and power to weight becomes way more important than outright power.

I personally like climbs where you sit at about 16mph, it seems to be where my outright power and power to weight work best against other riders as I’m not a racing whippet but am reasonably light and have some power, but not as much as the big guys, slight air resistance getting involved as well as power to weight.

Thanks all, weight wise I’m generally around 75kg so I’m not that light but probably lighter than those I’m riding with. I didn’t think my cadence was too far off what everyone else is doing, I don’t have a cadence sensor though so I can’t be sure, I have been consciously to try and up it. Pace wise on the group rides I’ve been frustrated by the amount and duration of stops, on rides on my own for say 80 miles I’d have say 1 30-60 min lunch stop and perhaps 1 or 2 others of a couple of minutes to get some food/ text wife. It feels in elapsed time my rides are quicker but the actual riding time they’re slower. It’s been weird, I’ve just felt generally mismatched with everyone from a pace point of view.

I personally like climbs where you sit at about 16mph, it seems to be where my outright power and power to weight work

You must be some climber or the climbs you’re describing aren’t actually climbs.

Anyway, back to the OP. I prescribe a whole winter of Zwifterisation.

Yep, its mixture of power to weight and also physiology. I’m 90kg, not a lot of excess blubber, so mostly muscle….im pretty good on the flat, though not as good as many I ride with who are about my weight and build – I have an FTP of about 300W, they are up at 350W+. I can climb better than them however (though im by no means anything close to being a climber)…so it cant be all w/kg, there has to be a physiological make up to it as well.

The problem with group rides when you are a lightweight is that everyone expects you to wait at the top of the hills for the rest to catch up but no one waits at the bottom of them after a really long flat section for you. 🙂

Actually as has been said if you are in a group don’t let any gaps appear and get on a good wheel.

My friend and i hired decent road bikes for a trip, he is 9 stone, at the time i was closer to 17st, for us to both go up the same 14% climb, he was putting out 187 watts, i was putting 412 watts to stay with him.

Can you replicate that on the flat, scud? Reason I ask is that I am also large, and can do 400W+ up a big hill for 20 mins, but can’t come close to that on the flat. Wonder is it the power meter just not being accurate across the two types of pedalling [low cadence, ‘heavy’ pedal strokes vs more normal cadences, rounded stroke, on the flat], or if the the psychological boost you get of working against the climb really is that significant, where it’s much easier to concentrate?

I personally like climbs where you sit at about 16mph

Me too. Because they aren’t climbs, they’re slight rises.

Maybe steady cafe rides where no-one is really busting a gut to climb quick?

For balance try a local training bash/chain-gang and see how it goes there.

Gearing and cadence are really a personal choice. Unless you’re trying to spin at something excessively high or low then I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Something around 90 on the flat is a good idea but it’s highly personal.

If you look at the pro peleton as an example, some people just aren’t ever going to be good in a TT or as a lead out man for the sprints (on the flat) because they weigh so little and can’t generate the watts to be up with the big boys on a flat course.

An example of that would be Nairo Quintanna who weights in at 58kg @ 1.67m. He is absolutely useless in a TT and sprint; however, he absolutely crushes people when the road starts to point up.

Tony Martin would be a good example of a TT specialist; former world champ and he weighs in at 75kg @ 1.86m. As soon as they go up a long climb at pace, he’ll be out the back.

75kg isn’t particular light for a road cyclist so unless your buddies are all Clydesdales on TT bikes I’d be surprised if you couldn’t keep up with some good drafting skills. Your genetics play a large part, however, at an amateur level it shouldn’t be too hard to improve your power output enough to keep up.

What sort of speed are you talking about holding on the flat in a group? How long a ride and what average speed do you usually have?

Quite a lot of roadies do big miles, but in flatish areas, so their bodies get used to maintain a steady rhythm and workload (including heart rate).

Chuck in a steep climb that requires anaerobic effort and they can struggle where as an mtb’er will be more used to efforts like this.

I am not suggesting this for people who race on the road, just some club riders who go out very Sunday doing 200 miles eating cake and tea etc

aldo56 – I guess I’ve been able to hold peoples wheel and I feel I can hang on, but jumping on the front felt like more effort than I would like! I don’t know, maybe it is mainly in my head! recently I’ve been doing 100-140km and I generally average around 24kph. The group rides (I’ve only done a few recently) were of a similar length but pushing into the high 20s (kph).

Are they just pacing themselves? Maybe they’re not trying to get up the hill the fastest they possibly can. I’m OK up hill compared to my roadie mates on short rides, but after 50 miles or  so their better pacing, and better endurance, means I’m starting to run out of steam and they’re still riding strong.

Double post

24kph average to high 20s kph average is a big old jump.

10 seconds on https://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesPower_Page.html gives a 50% jump in power.

(from about 190 to about 280, depending on parameters.)

It might just be that you can’t sustain that sort of power in that position.

Plus it’s also (apparently) psychologically/physiologically easier to generate higher forces (and power) when you have something (gradient) to push against.

I’ve not read the whoel thread but I’ve found many mtbers struggle to pace themselves – can’t maintain speed on the flats (a psychological thing I think) then hammer it up the climbs when the roadies are pacing themselves – perhaps individually or to a sensible “group pace” – so no one gets droped.

It can be bad etiquette to go off the front at this point (though they may let you do so in the hope of losing you 🙂 )

Aye, i’d tend to agree that increasing your average speed over that distance by 5kph is a massive change (even with the benifit if being in a group). I’d say your doing really well if you made it round with them at that speed whilst taking some turns. How much climbing is involved in these rides?

I think FunkyDunc has it. If you ride miles and miles on mostly flatish terrain your ability to spin without raising your heart rate too much will be pretty good. Once it goes up, and the effort becomes more anaerobic thats quite a different ball game. I think a lot of MTB is high anaerobic activity broken up with going down hill or sitting eating cake to recover, so you may be more used to this type of activity than they are.

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I’ve not read the whoel thread but I’ve found many mtbers struggle to pace themselves – can’t maintain speed on the flats (a psychological thing I think) then hammer it up the climbs when the roadies are pacing themselves – perhaps individually or to a sensible “group pace” – so no one gets droped.

It can be bad etiquette to go off the front at this point (though they may let you do so in the hope of losing you  )

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Agree with this.

New fella being towed by group – then shoots off for no apparent reason when the road goes up.

It is most likely those fellas who are towing you on the flat – aren`t interested in racing you up a hill.

There is definitely a psychological element to it! I have noticed this in Zwift. Much happier putting in a hard sustained effort going uphill than along the flat. Maybe it’s the occasional breather you get when the gradient lessens for a little while?

I think a lot of MTB is high anaerobic activity

For your “average” MTB’er I think you’ll be surprised. The body can’t sustain a high level of anaerobic activity over a prolonged period.

Now being out of breath due to various other reasons is a whole different ball game.

For your “average” MTB’er I think you’ll be surprised. The body can’t sustain a high level of anaerobic activity over a prolonged period.

You can’t generalise, but certainly if you ride trails aggressively – up as well as down – round here in the Peak, you get reasonably good at going anaerobic on short, kicky climbs and technical sections – then recovering repeatedly. In contrast, it’s possible to ride on the road at a steady sub-threshold level, as per triathlon.

I used to ride with a mate who, at the time, had done precious little mountain biking, but was an iron man triathlete. He could pull my legs off on the road, but off road, simply dragging him through technical sections killed him because he wasn’t well adapted to recovering from short, hard, anaerobic efforts.

I don’t think that relates particularly to the OP, but ‘fitness’ isn’t always as straightforward as just being, erm, ‘fit’.

My guess is they are just pacing themselves for the entire ride. So attacking the climbs isn’t in the plan.

If they are at all decent road racers they’ll smash you on the climbs if they wanted to.

Me too. Because they aren’t climbs, they’re slight rises.

From chilled76 other thread, 16mph at threshold is a 4 or 5% slope, ish. Can’t be bothered to do accurate maths, or read the thread in its entirety, because beer.

Aerodynamics plays a part too. I have dodgy hips so cant get low for long I reckon this is a much bigger issue on the flat going fast than climbing slowly.