Revoking an LPA or removing a PoA

If someone successfully creates and registers an LPA but later decides to revoke it, supercede it or change one of the PoAs will the original PoAs be informed?

This is all related to an earlier post of mine and the situation has definitely not improved.

He married the lady in question and bought a house with her. She has persuaded him to stop all medication for both angina and dementia. He is now denying he has or ever had dementia, despite previous diagnosis ! Apparently he reckons he just has severe cognitive decline, mighty severe IMO, if that is all it is.

There is loads of other shit that I could go in to but it is all too disturbing.

Its a bit complex!  Are you in Scotland or England/Wales?

You’ve slightly jumbled up your language.

In E&W – Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) is a document which assigns certain powers to the Attorney (the person you choose) in certain circumstances.

You can cancel an LPA entirely but only if you still have mental capacity.  I don’t think the Attorney’s would automatically be informed by the OPG but it would certainly be good practice to tell them yourself.  If you have multiple attorney’s appointed under the same LPA you can remove one of them (again you need to have mental capacity).   There is a register at the OPG which can be searched to see who are the current attorneys.

LPAs can be just for welfare issues or financial stuff or both.  The financial stuff can be “active” whenever you want (or only if certain criteria are met).  Welfare ones always apply only when you can no longer make your own decisions.  So what do you think you had LPA for? and was it actually “active” – ie. had the process to “trigger” it been followed?

If you are concerned that his wife is not acting in his best interests then it may be worth a call to the OPG.

If you are concerned that his wife is not acting in his best interests then it may be worth a call to the OPG

And the social services adult safeguarding team.

If you are concerned that his wife is not acting in his best interests then it may be worth a call to the OPG

And the social services adult safeguarding team.

This is the best way

The OPG was my immediate thought, having been involved in Poa for a number of years. I would be especially concerned about the medical aspect.

After thinking about it something else came to mind. It’s a dreadful scenario to be contemplating but on the Ukriversguidebook forum there has been a very long running thread, we are talking many years, about an individual who has preyed long term on vulnerable persons for financial gain. There have been numerous victims and the police were involved, prosecutions and jail time. Both male and female perpetrators.

The police may take an interest if there is something seriously untoward. Sadly these things do occur

I can’t answer the question but this might help if the LPA is recent.

https://www.gov.uk/use-lasting-power-of-attorney

The bar for not having mental capacity is quite high (low) in my very limited expereince.

What Educator said,

Also, I think if the existing one is properly registered, then simply doing a new one (properly signed and witnessed) and then registered via the government gateway should simply superceed the old one?

You’ll probabably have to pay the standard fee to register it again, I think it’s about £80, but I’m not sure on that.. the government website lined above is pretty usefull and straight forward to be honest.

Apologies for the incorrect terminology.

We are all in e&w. I and his son were created as attornies for both health and wealth. This was all before he met and married last year.

I am terrified of all the consequences of what could happen but I do feel it is necessary. He still has IMO mental capacity, he just can’t remember anything recent. He is, I think, happy at the moment, whether misguided or not, that makes it very difficult for me.

I’m not sure him re-marrying would automatically affect existing POA, but you should double check that, as getting re-married can often over ride a lot of things, wills included.

Reading up on the OPG I am not sure I want to contact them. If I understand it correctly the donor has to grant permission for the info to be released, which is perfectly correct but I don’t want to alert his wife to it’s existence if she is unaware.

If my beliefs are correct she will then work to get it superceded or revoked.

Is that a daft reason?

Marriage definitely nullifies wills, but I believe PoA and LPAs carry on.

If my beliefs are correct she will then work to get it superceded or revoked.

Is that a daft reason?

No not daft, if your dad (of sound mind) signs a new POA in her ‘favor’ as long as it’s witnessed and registered correctly it will over-ride the existing one and remove you (IMO).

But don’t just take my word for that, it’s too important.

OK so it seems the real question is the OP is wondering if the LPoA is still in place (with them as attorney) or not. It’s not actually been invoked. They may be able to check the status online, but then again, I suspect the initial registration may have predated the online system or else the OP would probably know about it! I have no idea whether old LPoA have been put on the online system or not.

I vaguely remember when we set our up there were some decisions to make relating to informing attorneys about various things, I can’t recall if that includes the case where it’s revoked. If so, no news is probably good news, but that’s a bit speculative.

Incidentally there is no formal process by which the LPoA becomes active or is invoked. The verbiage makes it sound like this is the case, but in reality people just muddle along as best they can. At least this was the case for both my father and father-in-law.

If someone of reasonably sound mind chooses to give over control of their affairs to a wrong-un, I’m afraid there isn’t a lot you can do about it.

OP here. The LPoA were both set up about 2 years ago so on the new system.

Neither have been invoked.

OP here. The LPoA were both set up about 2 years ago so on the new system.

Neither have been invoked.

I think it can still be over-ridden if your dad signs a new one, giving the new wife POA, as long as it’s witnessed and registered correctly, without your knowledge.

The new one will simply supercede the old one,  there’s no ‘revocation’ or ‘denouncement’ of the old one required, to my knowledge.

Might be time to speak to a solicitor TBH to pre-empt anything. Very concerning about being convinced to stop meds – that’s serious.

Might be time to speak to a solicitor TBH to pre-empt anything. Very concerning about being convinced to stop meds – that’s serious.

Indeed, late life marriage coupled with POA and medication shenanigans.. it has ‘black widow’ written all over it.

Are you able to speak frankly and privately with your dad?

If your dad has enough capacity, he can, at any time, revoke the existing PoA by setting up a different one, or opt to proceed without one. That’s his right.

You’d probably need to get some firm legal advice on how to proceed if you feel he doesn’t have capacity to do this, and/or is being coerced into decisions which are against his best interests.

It won’t be easy though. Given that you have not yet invoked the powers in your current PoA, that would suggest that you believe that he, at least until very recently, has some capacity to make his own health and financial decisions. Even if it is only a fleeting ability to do so (even that carries a lot of weight legally).

As above, get some advice, both legal and from adult social care services. It has the potential to be very problematic – as his new partner would presumably offer a view on his capacity, and arguably would be seen to be in a better position to judge it day-to-day than you.

He still has IMO mental capacity, he just can’t remember anything recent. He is, I think, happy at the moment, whether misguided or not, that makes it very difficult for me.

It’s very difficult, but that doesn’t sound like a situation where he is unable to make complex decisions about his own healthcare and finances. If the PoA is still registered, you could in theory approach his GP to get clarity on his medication, but it is likely that the GP would want to involve him in any conversations at this stage. Is it possible that he has made a calculated decision about quality of life vs side effects of his dementia meds?

Yeah, I think you need to speak to a solicitor, even if it’s just a free consultation.

If he can’t remember anything recent then it’s highly unlikely that he still has capacity.

Also it’s not a solicitor you need to speak to, it’s adult social services, as you suspect financial abuse.

You can check if an LPA has been registered via the OPG, search OPG100 which is the form to submit via OPG website.

Getting married wouldn’t automatically revoke any previously donated LPA.

Where mental capacity is concerned, it’s referred to as “decision specific” ie someone does not “have” or “not have”. The process of assessment to determine the ability to make any decision is 4 stage:  can the person Understand, Retain, Weigh up and Communicate, relating to the specific decision. You referred to having capacity but not being able to remember, not being able to do one of the 4 would indicate a lack of capacity to make the specific decision.

My grandad re-married very late in life (I don’t remember my real gran much) 10 years later he re-married. Only a year or two until he developed cancer and was dead quick. Wife fecked off (and her kids) back to Australia, and took what ever my grandad had, and gave only a few quid that was in a will to grand kids. My dad, and his two sisters didn’t see a penny – it can’t have been much as he was in sheltered accommodation, but they got nothing at all as I don’t think the will was upto date.

Even now, some 45 years later, I don’t ask what went on.

Short term memory issues won’t necessarily prevent a person making decisions for themselves. They can still be judged to have capacity with quite serious memory issues – IME anyhow. Only when not understanding the current situation was an attourney asked by medical staff to make medical decisions, and that was the point the LPA became very useful.

Don Powell can’t remember what he did the previous day but is fine in the moment and doesn’t need attourneys making decisions for him.

OP here. Minor point, and not really relevant, but he is my elder brother, not dad.

The inheritance which will be considerable will not come my way, but to his son and the new wife.

My belief on capacity needs more reading. But I think social services is certainly needed. But the idea of kicking that off really scares me.

Is it possible that he has made a calculated decision about quality of life vs side effects of his dementia meds?

Yes, that is clearly possible, although I find his denial of ever having dementia contractory to that.

I refer to my username!

Also it’s not a solicitor you need to speak to, it’s adult social services, as you suspect financial abuse.

It’s both really, as OP needs to get guidance on the legal limitations and responsibilities of the PoA when capacity is in question, especially in a potentially messy situation like this. It’s a wider question than just the possibility of coercion/financial abuse, although flagging that to Adult Social Care may well be the right move.

although I find his denial of ever having dementia contractory to that.

True, has he had a formal diagnosis? If his symptoms are restricted to memory issues at this point, he may have a genuinely held opinion,  reinforced by his new partner, that it’s just an ageing thing, and perhaps the meds make him feel lousy. Refusing meds for other stuff is a red flag though.

It’s difficult if there’s no opportunity to quietly talk it through with him. But as his PoA, you may have to try – as it’s in his best interests, and that’s what you signed up for.

A further point that occurs to me is that it may be worth contacting his GP to mention the LPoA as they may not be aware of it and may assume that the new partner is the most obvious next of kin when discussing his medical issues. They may of course be cagey about discussing his condition, especially if they consider that he’s still capable. But you could at least raise the subject with them and given the dementia diagnosis it’s possible they may be quite forthcoming.

Even with a formal diagnosis of two types of dementia a person can still be judged to have capacity. Again my own very limited experience. It’s a how long is a piece of string thing. Is this person capable of making this decision/ signing this document now? Yes and they make the decision/sign it, no and it’s attourney time.

Thanks all. Really appreciate the support and advice.

He was formally diagnosed with mixed dementia a few years ago now. He definitely didn’t ‘enjoy’ the affects of some of these drugs so I can sympathise why he might stop them.

My belief on capacity needs more reading.

everything mental capacity related is covered by the mental capacity act 2005 plus code of practice.

There are some good user friendly guides available, try the mind website or any of the dementia websites.