What we need is an international poppy, which recognises the sacrifice of soldiers on all sides, but does not undermine the need for an army precisely to fight our battles for us

munrobiker – Member
While it may be that the majority of red poppy wearers do understand it’s just about remembering British soldiers killed in war (The British Legion is pretty clear it’s not about remembering anyone else) the white poppy offers an option for those who wish to show support for ALL those that died as a result of war, and at the same time show that they did not support the war in the first place and think that no one should have died. As the poppy appeal moves from supporting soldiers from WW1 and WW2 to those who have chosen to fight in modern warfare for which the justification is poor this is an important option

I would be more than happy for you to come and spend the day with me, i can take you some of the facilities where friends of mine are still receiving physical and psychological treatment, you can hear their side of things, why they joined the forces, where their path in the military took them and what it means to them and their families now that they are left injured, often still fighting for housing, for the correct treatment, for work, for a decent pension etc.

Perhaps then you can understand that every soldier, sailor or airman isn’t a warmonger and you can climb back down from your ivory tower using your high horse as a ladder?

As the poppy appeal moves from supporting soldiers from WW1 and WW2 to those who have chosen to fight in modern warfare for which the justification is poor this is an important option.

An interesting point. It will get more difficult to keep the whole poppy thing going, with the “those who have chosen to fight” business, particularly if the conflicts like the recent ones have been shown to be a fallacy. Its not the military’s fault per se, but rather those above them ordering it.

The Somme or even the first bit of Saving Private Ryan, tell them that you son died valiently doing XYZ is a euphamism for his body was ripped to shreds and there is nothing left to bring home. Stop the sanitisation and deliver the true horror of war. Then perhaps we will be far more discriminating in chosing military options going forward

This.

Politicians who stand around the cenotaph in Whitehall doing their mornings mourning for those who died in War, its why I find it difficult to watch it these days.

i can take you some of the facilities where friends of mine are still receiving physical and psychological treatment, you can hear their side of things, why they joined the forces, where their path in the military took them and what it means to them and their families now that they are left injured, often still fighting for housing, for the correct treatment, for work, for a decent pension etc.

But they still chose, right?

yes, and in return for their choice, we/our elected representatives must:

A) not endanger their safety needlessly.

B) care for those who are injured.

imho we haven’t done a great job of either.

But they still chose, right?

You have to remember that many of these are young lads and lasses, i joined the Army at just shy of my 18th birthday, how many of us at that age can honestly say we have a perfect grasp of politics, the way the world works, world religion and how to be the perfect keyboard warrior?

I went to an all-boys Grammar School (on assisted place), where i went to Army Cadets and a week long army camp each year abseiling, canoeing etc, i also went on an Adventure Training camp for a week each year to the Lakes or Cairngorms, to a young lad from a single parent family who never had a money, i lived for these trips away, i saved my money for second walking boots and a rucksack and the gear i needed. I would hope that this type of forum, would understand loving that type of activity. As we had career guidance, i was told i had a natural aptitude for these things. I went on “visits” to the Parachute Regiment, the Royal Artillery and the Royal Hampshires (as was) and my 16/17 year old mind saw an exciting job with opportunities.

I didn’t think, “oohhh i really want to kill people”.

Do i agree in hindsight with everything that happened in the Iraq/ Gulf/ Afghanistan, no i don’t, but i’m now 41 and a hell of a lot wiser.

But every time i pulled on my uniform, i was proud, i learnt a hell of a lot about myself, about others and about the world. I played rugby at a high level, i jumped out of a plane 187 times, climbed and travelled to places a skint 17 year old from Portsmouth probably would not have had chance to do whilst his mates were in the clubs.

I used those skills later to work in Libya and Algeria ferrying around engineers and scientists, i used those skills to run a small travel company taking people to North and West Africa, where i would hope they learnt something about Africa, it’s people and the Islamic faith in person and not what they learnt on Facebook or the Daily Mail.

So no i don’t regret it, all i ask is that you don’t turn our war dead and injured into some kind of symbol of all that is currently wrong with this country.

I didn’t think, “oohhh i really want to kill people”.

No, i don’t imagine you did, but did you realise at the time the extent of the risk you were taking. did you know you might end up dead or damaged?

I don’t mean to say that that makes it OK, but I think there need to be some recognition that in taking the king’s shilling you take on those risks. Getting killed or injured are to some degree inevitable and a part of of the job.

So no i don’t regret it, all i ask is that you don’t turn our war dead and injured into some kind of symbol of all that is currently wrong with this country.

Not at all, i would not support this either. I think those who ended up dead or injured deserve our help, particularly that of the government, of course if that is short, we can top it up by charitable donations, as we do for any other range of charities which do things which we think the state should support, medical research for example.

I’m back in. So I deployed on the initial Op Telic, which we all very quickly discovered was utter bollocks, But then I went back a further two times. Why? Not for Queen, not for country, and certainly not for some random civilians, I went back because my friends were going. The thought of not being by their side, to watch their back, that was not an option. Now, don’t think it was a choice made lightly, but these are guys who are closer than family, it’s something I can’t adequately put into words, something I understand most cannot comprehend.

So the thought of me putting my feet up at home whilst they walk IED ridden streets, constantly under the threat of sniper fire, not going to happen. I wanted to be there, right next to them, thats the comradeship and brotherhood that people spout off about, I literally would walk through fire with them and for them.

I’ll leave the legalities and morality of the decision to deploy troops down to the politicians and armchair quarterbacks, my focus is first and foremost to the man to the left and right of me. It is our job to look out for each other, to protect each other, to ensure nobody strays from the path of ROE and LOAC. To get our assigned tasks completed and bring everybody home alive.

For us it is that simple, yes I knew the other times I went were a crock of shit, but my loyalty was to my friends, it just so happened that I failed on my final tour and I carried my friend onto a Herc, I can still remember that day, the day the vehicle drove around and stopped, we marched around the corner and there was Dave’s casket on the tailgate with the Union Flag. I remember the weight, the smell, feeling his body shift inside as we lifted him up onto our shoulders.

Once we marched him onto the Herc we had a few seconds to say goodbye, I couldn’t leave, there was my best friend of 10 years, a guy that I’d never see laugh again, share a shit joke with, there’s a hundred and one things I’ll miss about him. I had to compose myself and march off that plane and watch him leave, the worst part was because we were mid-tour I couldn’t make his funeral, to say a final goodbye to him. But in one way I was glad because I didn’t know how I was going to look is fiancee, daughter and his family in the eyes knowing I failed to keep him safe.

Now multiply that by the 100,000’s of people the wars have killed, if you think that a great many of us don’t think about that, you’re high. We do, we just don’t wring our hands and make excuses, we chose our job and will continue to serve our friends and do our best to protect each other and those not deemed targets. To insinuate or even openly express we’re unthinking and blindly follow orders, well again, demonstrating how uninformed you are.

Only problem is when you start throwing high velocity and explosive munitions around, people die and not always the **** you want. Some here most likely believe that leaves no stain on soldiers consciences, I can tell you from a very, very informed position that is most definitely does. A stain no amount of cleansing can ever erase.

We chose our job, we accept the risks and when in those situations we always try to do the right thing, both morally and legally. Sometimes we fail, factors outside of our control and the fact that some **** nutters get through the screening and revel in the carnage.

No matter the dubious nature of our deployment, the government has a legal and moral obligation to ensure those marked by conflict are looked after. By all means hold them to account to try to ensure they only use as the public see fit, but even in spite of that we will continue to deploy because we will always look out for each other, our brothers and sisters that chose the same path as us.

Some may find that an uncomfortable truth, but I couldn’t care less, that is the ground truth.

Thanks moose.

I don’t think I could do that, so I wear a poppy to try and show how grateful I am to those who have.

Well said moose.

Hat off to you, sir. And I’m sorry for your loss.

Yep, hats off to you Moose. I know of lads whov’e ended up in prison after going off the rails through PTSD, sometimes after being in Mooses position.

I think I’ll invent the Pink Poppy, that should do for lots of people.

I think anyone (of us) who has experienced military active service will recognise what has been written in Moose’s text above. They will recognise the camaraderie and the personal loss.

But…for me it can skew a debate. I can almost hear the Vietnam vet ‘your weren’t there man’ cliche in it too. Text like that almost looks like it is designed to shout down talk from anyone else as ‘not worthy’ of having opinion. Informing debate with real experience is healthy, shutting it down is not.

Remembrance day should be about the loss and suffering of war, especially of those who had no choice but to be involved. It should however primarily be focussed around the ‘never again’ adage it had at it’s inception but which has slowly become less prevalent. I don’t think it should be a time to share war stories unless they are to remind the greater populous that war is the very very last resort.

NOt how I saw it convert. I saw it as a good explanation of the mind of a soldier.

I have been in the position of helping veterans coming to terms with what they had done and the (usually undiagnosed) PTSD in those WW2 vets. some of those memories I have of those WW2 vets will never leave me in that I saw how traumatised they were.

Edit: Just to reiterate I have no argument at all with the soldier onthe ground. MY argument is about the way the politicians have co opted they symbols of remembrance. I find Blair, Cameron and May wearing red poppies repugnant and that is why I wouldn’t wear one.

Convert, I passionately believe in freedom of speech and I fully support differing opinions, there has been too much of what you have described happening in the UK. It reminds me of all the high profile issues the USA is having. Civil, informed debate can be educational, it’s just we often choose not to bother and just gob off at each other.

I’m more than aware of people’s opinion of my career choice, I respect other peoples INFORMED opinions, if people are uniformed and I’m equipped to do so, I will try to inform them a little. If they’re not interested then I pay them no attention from that point.

I wrote that little personal perspective because this topic, as always is awash with uniformed conjecture, it’s tiring to be labelled the way we are. Just as I imagine other demographics are. So when people are throwing around their ‘opinions’ then they better damn well be prepared for an informed counter-narrative. It may come across as you say, maybe thats more to do with the individual reading it rather than the person writing it?

Back on point; Armistice day is as you say, remembering the futility and brutality of war and how it destroys everything it touches. Both military and civilian, as well as the need to be mindful that it should never happen again. But as my career clearly demonstrates, we have failed at every turn and have continued the cycle.

The poppy appeal is just one charities way of trying to raise funds for those who have served and their families to give them the support that their former employees fail to do. The fact the people get so het up over a small piece of paper and plastic is beyond me. I personally don’t give a shit what people wear or not, if you want no part in the day, fine I respect that, just afford others the same respect.

Just as a side, I’m a paid member of the RBL, I also make a standing donation every month to the Red Cross, because it’s not just the military that needs support post conflict.

I choose not to wear a poppy but always feel under tremendous pleasure to do so. In my last job it was almost expected and that wound me up.

I do however observe the minutes silence and happily donate a pound to the British Legion-I just don’t particularly want to wear the poppy.

I am also mindful of the sacrifices made by many to give me the freedom to make this choice.

Today in work, dress down day, in Shiny Town there was a mixture of wearers and none wearers. I’d say it was about 60-40 wearers, not many white ones. None of our bunch who weren’t British were wearing them.. bit odd because I do remember a few American and Spanish guys last year wearing them.. I’ll have ask on Monday.

And for the record, my Grandfather fought in the 2nd WW, in all the years we chatted, he never wanted to talk about the experience.

To back up my stance on the whole “not supporting War” thing, my uncle was one of many who developed Nuclear Warheads and scuttled off to Saudi to do the same thing for huge amounts of money…. my Father started his IT career developing the tech to control and fire them (until he joined IBM in the USA for a more passive outlet for his talents) my Father hated being a part of the whole weapons establishment, I agree with him.

This has been done many, many times, as TJ well knows as he was very active.
Naughty boy!

I agree with him.

I do to mate, and I’ve been involved in a few conflicts. The very worst of humanity laid bare. Anyone who is pro war has never seen one. Oh, and wear whatever colour poppy you want, or none at all. IDGAF, and I very much doubt if too many others do either.

The issue with rememberence day is it can partly help militirise our society, desenstise us to the ease our military can be deployed to a new conflict. Remember the massive protest March in London when Blair decided to invade Iraq?

What happened since? Where were we? The war on terror scares people into readily accepting destabilising regions with the cost to us later on.

Our presence in the Balkans was the only exception.

Otherwise when we follow American foreign policy we are morally bankrupt.

Remember the fallen. But also take it as an opportunity, to think, energise you to make a promise not to promote, back or support future wars.

Our presence in the Balkans was the only exception.

East Timor? Sierra Leone?

Otherwise when we follow American foreign policy we are morally bankrupt.

Agreed.

Diego Garcia?