Recreational drugs policy

IMO legalise the lot and tax its sale and production.

I think it’s one of those subjects where the system we have now is very much bent, and should be reformed as @tj and others suggest to remove as much harm as can be reasonably achieved. You could however, never realistically legalise them, no politician will ever go near it, and the medical community won’t ever thank you, and you’d instantly create a new market for the really shittiest of companies (becasue we all know it would be fags, booze and pharma corps that would sweep it all up) to make vast vast profits

Not 100% up on things in the Vaterland, but there aren’t any clubs set up and running as yet, at least in Bavaria.

yes – in typical german style they have in theory legalised the set up of clubs very recently.  In practice it all stuck in a bureaucratic nightmare with some of the regional governments being obstructive.

, and you’d instantly create a new market for the really shittiest of companies (becasue we all know it would be fags, booze and pharma corps that would sweep it all up) to make vast vast profits

Its early days yet in the Canadian legal cannabis market but from what I saw at least the weed seemed to be lots of small scale producers not conglomerates.  I do not know about the THC products like drinks and edibles.  I believe in the US the cannabis derived products like drinks have been mainly big businesses.  I am doubtful whether these should be legal

Interesting discussion folks.  I have realised I have conflated two things tho – my personal opinions and my understanding of legal status and effects in various places.  I hope the two are suffficiently clear which is which

Put heroin on prescription. It would stop the one man crime waves addicts become and may stop some of the health problems with impurities, cannabis is virtually decriminalised as it’s not worth the polices time to arrest someone over £20 worth, let people grow it themselves. Drugs gangs are organised, successful and incredibly wealthy and offer a product people want and you will never stop them by the use of the law. Fancy some drugs, do a quick Instagram search and have it delivered to your door.

Someone on this forum once suggested that heroin must be amazing, because people are willing to give up everything else in their life to use it.How would the user demographic change if the experience was less trainspotting and more swanky high end bar?

And a separate question about the gangs. How exactly are they structured, are they using drugs to fund other criminal activities, or are other activities purely a business expense at running an illegal drug network. I imagine they would not voluntarily renounce their past lives and go get a minimum wage job, so what would they turn to?

IMO heroin is mainly used to ease the pain of a shit life.  I do not believe it would become “swanky high end bar” – and I am not advocating full legalization personally.

Drugs gangs – hard to know but I believe there are many different models some of which are very nasty indeed.  Its one of the reasons I want a liberalization of the law – to remove the power of the gangs.  Many of the recruits at the bottom end are coerced not voluntary in the nasty ganges.  also stopping busting folk for simple possession means no criminal record and jobs are easier to find

I think we need to look long and hard at what other countries experiences are and copy the policies that lead to least harm to individuals and society

They’d turn to other crimes of course. Crime to fund drug deals, drug dealer profits to fund legitimate business for laundering you’re money, repeat in one way or another.

Heroin is indeed an amazing experience or at least opium is which I tried once and thought twice your an addict. Not all addicts are in grotty council flats it’s every level of society.

A lot of the point is missing that not all drug users have horrible lives, lots of people use drugs ’cause you know they are fun. Forget kid in a tracksuit on a street corner it’s all nice houses and people with well paid jobs and pleasant lives with door to door delivery. Drug policies are written by people who are way out of touch or more concerned with political loss or gain so nothing improves.

I find the “I have a bad drug anecdote” fairly bizarre. Someone took some unregulated drug of unknown provenance and had a bad (or terminal) experience. That’s not an argument for keeping the status quo. Legalisation is about reducing/preventing harm. Illegal drugs are easily available now to anyone who wants them, but with all the negatives of a criminal trade along with people’s reticence to be truthful when asked about substance use. Keeping the drugs illegal does nothing to prevent more future bad anecdotes. Legalising, controlling, monitoring and supporting their use should.

Someone on this forum once suggested that heroin must be amazing, because people are willing to give up everything else in their life to use it.

The assumption of opinions like this is that drugs/heroin cause chaotic life problems. I think in most cases (informed by Mrs Daz being a drug and alcohol support worker for 15 years) the opposite is true. As TJ says people take drugs to escape their shit lives. For a couple of hours a day a homeless person or victim of abuse can forget whatever’s going on in their lives and have a fleeting moment of feeling good. Of course the drug use may then exascerbate their situation and make it worse, but it’s generally not the root cause.

 I think in most cases (informed by Mrs Daz being a drug and alcohol support worker for 15 years) the opposite is true.

Actually, I think that the abiding lesson from the opioid crisis is that the addiction leads to the chaos and not the other way round in many cases.

 Keeping the drugs illegal does nothing to prevent more future bad anecdotes.

But this is already also true of the legal drugs we have now.

Its early days yet in the Canadian legal cannabis market but from what I saw at least the weed seemed to be lots of small scale producers not conglomerates.  I do not know about the THC products like drinks and edibles.  I believe in the US the cannabis derived products like drinks have been mainly big businesses.  I am doubtful whether these should be legal

From speaking to a retirement age Oregon based weed farmer I met in Bangkok the big pharmacy companies and Mexican cartels (using immigrant slaves) have moved in and combined with the new legal red tape has forced out the small local farmers.

Portugal has implemented a successful system of helping not criminilizing addicts, Thailand on the other hand is reversing its decision on legalising weed due to OCG and youngsters smoking it.

I’m not sure exactly how much you need to take or how often before you become hopelessly addicted, but when you live in a seriously depressed area, with no jobs on the horizon and are in the habit(no pun) of taking drugs like weed, then i suppose it can be more appealing, as it certainly has more of a hit than weed.

The problem is they start smoking heroin. Initially, it might only be at the weekend, much like cocaine,and because it’s only the occasional,it’s cheap. Then within a year, maybe 2 they are probably smoking £200-300/week. Thats when the real problem starts, which is when they move from smoking to injecting. If you are smoking £300 a week and you start injecting, because of how it works, that habit goes back to maybe £70/week, but you’ll build up a resistance very quickly and be back to the 300+

Someone on this forum once suggested that heroin must be amazing,

Put it this way. Say you have a bad flu, and you can’t even get out of bed. A fivers worth of heroin, and you could go on a ten mile jog. It’s just that its really addictive/habit forming/moreish.

I expect there are some who have a stronger head and can limit it to once a week or once a month,or even a couple eof times a year, but not everyone is that focused and can project the dangers..

Most of my mates took it, I took it, though I was 90% of the time a weed smoker and often said ‘Just stick to weed, you’ll not go wrong’. They’re all dead from it, im still here.

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Whatever their reason, and it might not be deprivation, it could be death of close family, depression, please be christian about the horrible disease they’re caught in.

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Funny joke

Whats the difference between a heroin addict, and an alcoholic ?.

Both will steal your wallet, but the heroin addict will help you look for it.

It’s high time that Cypress Hill and the London Symphony Orchestra have just fullfilled The Simpsons pipe dream and performed together last night, all reviews are smoking it !

Actually, I think that the abiding lesson from the opioid crisis is that the addiction leads to the chaos and not the other way round in many cases.

If you are rteffering to oxycontin in the US then yes – prescribed opiates led to addiction and chaos.  However the heroin addicts from the sink estates in the UK its shit life syndrome IMO

I think that the abiding lesson from the opioid crisis

The opioid crisis is an entirely different issue to the harm caused by recreational drug use. Addiction to opioids is mostly a result of aggressive marketing and dubious research by big pharma than the result of people choosing to use drugs and then falling victim to them.

The opioid crisis is an entirely different issue to the harm caused by recreational drug use.

Oh come on, just because I contradicted you, don’t start making stuff up. There’s massive crossover between the two.

There’s massive crossover between the two.

Well it’s funny but I don’t know anyone in the UK who uses opioids recreationally. I know loads of people who frequently use weed, MDMA, mushrooms, coke, alcohol etc but I’ve yet to come across anyone using opioids so I don’t think it’s the problem you’re making it out to be. The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors. It’s not a recreational drugs issue.

The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors.

I do not think that is true at all.  UK doctors are very careful about prescribing opioids to the point they may be under prescribed.  In the US this might be true

*klaxon* Irony alert *klaxon*

this has been a nice polite debate – can we keep it that way ta?

 The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors.

Seriously, when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

can we keep it that way ta?

You’re telling the wrong person TJ.

Addiction to opioids is mostly a result of aggressive marketing and dubious research by big pharma than the result of people choosing to use drugs and then falling victim to them.

And

Addiction to heroin is mostly the result of aggressive marketing by drugs gangs rather than the result of people choosing to use drugs and falling victim to them

Aren’t actually that far apart…

Addiction to heroin is mostly the result of aggressive marketing by drugs gangs rather than the result of people choosing to use drugs and falling victim to them

In over 30 years of taking various recreational drugs (although admittedly not heroin) I’ve never once come across a dealer or gang aggressively pushing (or ‘marketing’) a drug. If anything it’s the other way round, the demand from users often outstrips supply and the people selling them are reacting to that demand rather than generating it themselves.

the result of people choosing to use drugs

Better choosing life

As the US surgeon general noted, “Tobacco is more addictive and damaging than heroin”.

Afaik, the govt in the late 1960’s proposed measures to wean heroin users off it.

When the conservatives took over, these proposals were abandoned. Deliberately trying to create ‘Kaoss’? Who knows.

In Scotland, it’s merely furthered what is basically ethnic cleansing as a means of whittling down the population and staving off any expansion back into the highlands.

As for cannabis…

In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.

The legal growers are still playing catch up.

From my brief experience in the Netherlands, the police don’t so much turn a blind eye, as condone its use.

They appreciate it when tourists use the coffee shops, as it saves the police from having to waste precious resources, chasing people around town.

Theres always an argument when a progression policy is mooted of “well what about the teenagers? Won’t they all become addicts?”

Doesnt seem that way for the Dutch. The ‘yoot’ don’t cluster around, passing doobies.

Without a coherent message from the drinks lobby, the Dutch seem to respect the weed and its smokers.

Were not revered quite like sports stars, but there’s a healthy sense of astonishment from the residents.

Priest-class?

And whatever you smoke, there’s always a risk of cancer. More so with tobacco, but always present.

Kind of odd when the German tourists snort with derision at the smell of a doobie, but when they return home, they’ll spend four hours perched over their barbecue???

And ironically, it’s that demographic (retired), are probably the ones who’ll receive the most benefit from the weed.

They’ll be able to run diagnostics to their hearts content.

As for psychosis, it’s alcohol that makes people paranoid AF.

But I’d argue that psychosis is hard wired into the human psyche. Part of the human condition.

When push comes to shove, most people of all ages have absolutely no concept of reality, in any way, whatsoever.

Its not surprising that people can undergo psychosis.

Mental fitness, whatever, is just as much of a hard won struggle as gender identity.

Ive experienced verbal gender reassignment from my peers, even when in my twenties. That kind of nonsense, I had already dealt with in my very, very early youth.

When the conservatives took over, these proposals were abandoned

I think they were happy to let it carry on, IIRC it was Regan personally who lent on Thatcher to put a stop to it, as it was out of step with his own policy (the war on drugs) Folks in Liverpool were sacrificed to transatlantic relationships.

In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.

That’s not strictly true… I Know first hand from a Canadian friend.. He grows a few plants on his land, just for personal use really…

Much like someone might grow tomatoes or whatever. He doesn’t sell it.. But he does trade small amounts and cuttings with like minded friends who have grown a different strain or whatever.

No cartels or big pharma in sight.

Of course you need a garden or allotment or something to do that otherwise you have to buy it from somewhere if you want it.. Be that a licenced operator or traditional black market dealer.

In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.

I am not sure how this can be as the industry is now legal ie both growing and selling is fully legal in a controlled and regulated market.  do you mean its the same people?  Weed is tested, stuff is taxed, there is a high degree of regulation

I am not sure how this can be as the industry is now legal ie both growing and selling is fully legal in a controlled and regulated market. do you mean its the same people? Weed is tested, stuff is taxed, there is a high degree of regulation

I’m guessing he means legal dispensaries that may be sourcing bulk product from producers that are not always totally legit, possibly even proper criminals.

That’s more a commercial supply chain issue, and not the experience I have from ‘informal co-op’s’ for want of a better term, who are basically just very small scale home growers who help each other out, rather than growing it to sell for profit as a business.

I’m not sure how that can be as the stuff in the shops has a tested and approved type seal on it like cigarettes in the UK with the tax paid seal on them.

Its not dispensaries really – its shops.  I do not see shops knowingly selling black or grey market stuff – if caught they would lose their license to sell and there is plenty of legal product to sell.

Its a tightly controlled market.  I am willing to be proved wrong but I don’t see how it could be a major issue.

I think a lot of the growers may have been illegal growers before the legalisation but that is surely a good thing as they will now be paying taxers and being inspected and the products tested.

In Scotland, it’s merely furthered what is basically ethnic cleansing as a means of whittling down the population and staving off any expansion back into the highlands.

wow!  Scotland has a drugs problem. The problem is not unique to the big cities.  I’ll buy that governments of all colours and all locations don’t give it the priority they should – and often regard it as self inflicted harm.  BUT as a policy of intentionally removing an ethnic group it’s a pretty shit one: which ethnicity is it targeting?  what %age of that group has it removed?

Well it’s funny but I don’t know anyone in the UK who uses opioids recreationally.

do you think that’s because your social circles don’t involve injecting drug users?

The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors. It’s not a recreational drugs issue.

i don’t think that’s true.  Its quite possibly true for the US but in the UK we never really had the same drug company opioid push here, and a healthcare system that’s funded in a way that doesn’t benefit doctors by overprescribing.  Moreover, if you end up addicted to prescription medicine in the UK there’s much less reason to resort to street drugs – in the US once the meds (or the underlying health issue you were taking them for) mean you lose your job – you lose your healthcare insurance and access to the doctor who got you hooked!

but it’s not a “fun” or “party” drug issue – people taking opiates are doing it to escape a miserable life probably inflicted on them by others and with no easy way out; so yes not a “recreational” drug in the sense of it being a game but very much not usually starting with prescription opiates.

I’m not sure how that can be as the stuff in the shops has a tested and approved type seal on it like cigarettes in the UK with the tax paid seal on them.

Its not dispensaries really – its shops. I do not see shops knowingly selling black or grey market stuff – if caught they would lose their license to sell and there is plenty of legal product to sell

You might well be right, I’m not disagreeing, all I can say is my own experience, if you get to know people in certain circles, there are networks of very small scale personal growers, which is technically ‘black market’ but it’s not a money making scheme, it’s just groups of people who grow a handfull of plants for thier own use, and help each other out.

My friend for example, if his few plants get eaten by a marauding goat or just die or something, then he can lean on some friends to get some new cuttings etc, as you can grow your own as long as you don’t get silly with it, the police really won’t give a damn.

My friend just grows his own as it’s totaly legal in small amounts, and so do his friends, as long as you don’t go commercial with it, it’s a better way of doing it.

Ah – yes I am sure that still happens – and thats legal to grow a small amount at home and gifting small amounts Is again I think OK

The sooner we move to a legalised production model for consumers the better, this is how it’s sold in Canada, comes in a sealed package with exact THC/CBD terpenoids listed on the packaging (my aunt sends these over) so you know exactly what you are buying.

My opinion on drug use/decriminalisation has been done to death before on the forum and I imagine most are aware of my experience in growing so I won’t bore you all with it again, growing for personal use/clubs with friends should be totally legal.

Drugs other than cannabis/hash/oil should also be decriminalised and made available to users, the idea of a state deciding what I am allowed to consume/take is utterly absurd and throughout my life I have ignored the law

Re:Canada. What I heard was that whilst there is legal weed, most of the cultivation facilities know-how, etc, is still in the hands of the criminal gangs.

Re: Scotland. There’s been about a thousand drugs deaths per annum. Maybe they were the direct descendants of Robert the Bruce?
Such affrontery!

I guess at a level above the Scottish govt, someone decided that it would require too much resources to combat generation upon generation of poverty. So they hit reset, handed out ‘hot-shots’, and hived out any kids to better-heeled foster parents.

As for any perceived population, encroaching  onto the highland estates.

The theory is that the USA feared an increase in the African population. Was AIDS engineered to achieve population control?

Who knows.

Certainly, by stigmatising the use of condoms, the papacy was instrumental in those countries holocaust.

Re:Canada. What I heard was that whilst there is legal weed, most of the cultivation facilities know-how, etc, is still in the hands of the criminal gangs.

As they are licensed and inspected I do not think that can be true.  Is it that its the same folk growing but they have moved into the legal market?  that may be true ( infact I think it probably is given that the legal market has such high quality products.  people who know how to grow good stuff are growing it) but then they are no longer a criminal gang – they are a legal and licensed grower paying taxes etc.  One of the key things was to get the money out of the hands of the criminals to avoid the situation they have in the netherlands

colorado tried to freeze out anyone who grew in the black market and as a result the legal product was so poor no one wanted it.  They had to backtrack

I do not know the details tho and am not certain.

I must say I find this very refreshing that we have no real ” all drugs are bad just say no” nonsense and a nice willingness to consider harm reduction approaches.  also interesting that a few folk would go further than I would on this.  Clesarly there is an appetite for a change in the laws

Nice discussion

Anyone watched Murder Mountain on Netflix? Covers some of the growers trying to go legal, really good series, it’s a totally outlaw part of California.