Recreational drugs policy

I think that’s hopeless naïve.

Its what the evidence shows.  ( again this is cannabis only) Why would you get something of unknown quality on the black market when you can get a better product at a reasonable price legally?  When its easier to buy legally than illegally?  do you drink Potcheen or nice scotch?

Edit:  Colorado buggered up their legal market with poor products at high prices and what you say was true there. Canada legal market is a high quality product at a reasonable price and early indications are the illegal market is dying fast at least in part because many of the folk who supplied into the black market now supply into the legal market

I wouldn’t do them in the order you’ve suggested, the weekend would be all over the place.

Lolz!

all did have unhealthy lifestyles but the cocaine useage led to these events no doubt at all in my mind.   

Sorry are you saying they had those incidents straight after taking coke, or because you suspect they took coke over a period of time? If the former then yes it’s possible, but for it to happen to 3 friends? Given the huge amount of folks taking cocaine in this country who don’t have issues I’d say your friend circle is fairly unlucky

If all your coke abusing mates with unhealthy lifestyles had heart attacks not straight after taking coke, well I don’t think it’s possible to claim ‘it was the coke that did it’ any more than the 30 years of smoking, boozing and pies.

It’s probably fair to say however that if your cardiovascular system is already ruined through years of poor living then you are probably far more likely to die from an acute MI event than if you are young fit and healthy. Same as if you walk up a set of stairs, get flu etc. Therefore I’ll stand by the statement that acute mi events caused by a line or 2 of cocaine are incredibly rare in people that are otherwise fit and healthy.

Over do it and it’ll kill you no doubt, but so would heroin, even if you are a first time user

MMMMM – there is a clear correlation between cocaine usage and acute cardivascular events – tends to be the day after IIRC.  Lots of published research on this.  As with all these things is hard to sort out the various factors but this seems pretty clear.  Its much more than rare IMO

there is a clear correlation between cocaine usage and acute cardiovascular events

I would agree with that too, but I would strongly disagree to the implication you are giving it as in it happens on a first time basis.

But would say that study is more a case of long term profound use of coke.

If there is some sort of medical emergency from a first time coke hit, that is more likely going to be due to underlying causes than the drug itself.

I’m not disputing there is a clear correlation. I’m saying it’s very rare. Approx 2% of the adult UK population regularly take coke. Let’s say that’s 2% of 20-50 year olds. That is around 400000 regular users.

I don’t know the stats, but how many have acute mi incidents occur in that population every year?

And i am saying its not.  I googled a load of acedemic studies on this and its very clear.  ~acute MI in younger men is often cocaine related.  I haven’t posted them but I can

anyway its a distance from the crux of the debate I hoped for and a distraction. that population acute MI is fairly rare – but many of the events are cocaine related so its a common cause of a rare event.

Two things I can see would be the first hurdles; 1. The illegal market will react to the competition

This is probably the biggest problem for legalisation. Currently ecstasy pills cost about £5-7 a go and they’re strong, enough for a couple of doses. MDMA crystals are approx £20-30 for a bag which contains enough for around 10 doses (at least!). By the time legal suppliers have navigated themselves around all the regulations and tax is added I don’t see how legalised MDMA could get anywhere close to these prices so the black market would continue as it is. The gangs won’t give up their monopoly easily and will always be able to undercut legal suppliers.

actually here is one that is fairly readable

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0828282X22002872#preview-section-abstract

The risk of myocardial infarction is significantly elevated in the first several hours after cocaine use,50 with one group reporting a 24-fold increase in risk within 60 minutes of use.51

I fully accept my view may be skewed by personal experience.  I have no doubt one death and two strokes amongst folk I know were inextricably linked and directly caused by cocaine usage with bad lifestyle underlying it

Dazh – we can supply paracetomol for 10 p a gramme.  MY view is that folk will generally go for a known regulated high quality product over black market so long as the price is not too high.  Black market prices are all about how much they can get not how much it costs to make.  MDMA is not hard to make

Badly made MDMA ends up with a strychnine (like substance??)  in it – most pill poppers will know what this is like if you get a bad batch.  Few would want to risk that if a clean regulated pill is available

Always thought legalising was the way ahead, harder drugs like heroin and so on, you could make it a lot safer (not cut with anything), and if made for the NHS, would cost pennies, same with other stuff.

Cannabis again, used by loads, could make it safer and cheaper, could treat a lot of things, but you also bring in the risks associated with driving and so on, first accident caused by someone high as a kite and it’ll be front page news, how do you work out limits safely and stop the bad press, that’ll be the hard bit.

MDMA and cocaine are party drugs, you can make them safer easily via licensed sales, but you’re opening a door to a future where it’s going to cause more issues longer term, and again, always being a thorny subject for either side.

Reducing the black market would be an added benefit, organised crime would lose a huge amount of its trade, same with costs to the NHS from substandard products causing medical issues, but it would be an absolute battlefield to get anything through parliament!

but it would be an absolute battlefield to get anything through parliament!

Understatement of the year!

I’ll admit now I have had a colourful past in relation to this, not all of the above mind. However, there has been no known deaths due to cannabis, you can’t overdose on it, take too much and you’ll just fall asleep for a bit and wake up hungry. I also think that as most people smoke cannabis mixed with tobacco (and also deeper, longer hits than just smoking) it is more difficult to see results of weed alone. Look at how much tax the US government has made since making it available, surely a good thing. I can’t for the life of me see why it is illegal when a drug like alcohol is freely available and caused many, many deaths. I agree with the statement that jeffl made before, if alcohol was discovered today it would be banned. Decrimalising weed is the way forward I think. I also think it is hypocritical for the government to say its bad when one of our old prime ministers husband is involved in the biggest weed farm in europe.

(I’ve ranted enough so I’ll stop now)

The author of Good Cop Bad War spent years as an undercover tracking smack dealers leading to hundreds of arrests and court time. At the end of his project they calculated he’d disrupted the trade for 20 minutes.

aide – as Kramer pointed out it will have a high risk of lung cancer.  But in the same ballpark as tobbacco maybe?

Otherwise you are right – the fatal dose has been theoretically worked out IIRC and its many kilos – less if you drop it on someones head from 50 ft

TJ – your still thinking along the lines of smoking it, what about people that use edibles? — less risk of lung cancer there I think

Oh for sure.  Fair point.  No real risk from eating it I would think

Cocaine should be banned, more banned I should say, as it turns most people into pricks, boring pricks, and ruins a good night out.
MDMA is the opposite and should be added to drinking water.

Oh yes – take a person, add cocaine and lo and behold – instant arsehole

I was given a pill over the weekend. The old me would have swallowed it there and then. It’s in my desk drawer until I can figure out if I can get it tested.

Lidl Stamp fwiw.

.  I googled a load of acedemic studies on this and its very clear.  ~acute MI in younger men is often cocaine related.  I haven’t posted them but I can

As you say, a common cause of a very rare thing is still a very rare thing

actually here is one that is fairly readable

Well aware of that statistic and article. And if I’m a healthy 25 year old reading that my stroke risk goes up 24x in the hour following coke consumption, id probably stay well clear. However in reality, 24x absolutely bugger all risk (for a non coke user) is still a miniscule amount of risk

Drugs are bad, cocaine is terrible. But the chances of you dying from a few lines of coke if you are fit and healthy is miniscule

Nearly everyone I know has taken coke at some point, and none have died from a few lines down the pub.

This probably speaks more about circles than lines.  I can probably count the number of people I know personally who have done coke on the fingers of one hand.

“correlation between cannabis use and psychosis” – yet THC is fat soluble and the brain is very much fatty tissue.. what does the science say on this? These ‘middle class’ types who use it with no consequence… is that no consequence after 10 years of use? 20 years? 30? How heavy / regular? How would their lives have panned out if they weren’t dope smokers? More successful / happy? Or perhaps more alcoholic/shambolic? Depends on the person.. that’s one reason why drugs are illegal- there are professional drivers who are completely safe at 120mph, but we don’t raise the speed limit to 120 because the vast majority couldn’t cope with it.

Where decriminalisation has occurred, things have often gone pear shaped. British Columbia has had to reverse decriminalisation after it led to open hard drug use on streets, and headlines such as “How decriminalisation made Vancouver the fentanyl capital of the world” aren’t really selling the place to me.

Nope, I’m with Nancy Reagan on this one and I have had a fair amount of contact and experience with the issue, including family member jailed for dealing and friends’ deaths from overdose as well as being able to observe others’ lives over a long period of time, ie decades

Legalise everything, industrialise production, tax the heck out of all sales. Woo hoo. Cheaper drugs for those that want them, tax support to the NHS to treat any resulting health issues. Parallel to drink and fags?

I guess OTOH we ought to recognise that mountain bikes were born in the Fairfax/Repack area where everyone sat around cross legged listening to The Doors all day and invented off road bikes in order to reach their hidden crops that needed watering….

Just a sad anecdote from me, a good friends lad had a drug induced psychosis, it destroyed his life and he almost took his family down with him.

He grew up with my lad and it was horrible to watch the events unfold and completely horrific for his family.

The Drug Science podacst with David Nutt is well worth listening to from the beginning if you want to be better informed.

When my teenage boy eventually tries ‘drugs’, it would be much safer if he could purchase them from Boots.

grimep – you need to differentiate between different drugs.  They have different effects on individuals and society and some are legal – ie chocolate, caffeine, alcohol and tobacco

Anecdote is not evidence but I know a few life long smokers in their 60s.  all hold down professional responsible jobs and all are happy well adjusted people.

Sure, you can waddle into an offy and buy a bottle of scotch, use it responsibly and it’s not dangerous, you could hold down a professional job and be happy and adjusted. Or you could waddle into the offy buy a bottle of scotch, crack the lid, chug the whole thing back in one go. I’d bet you couldn’t hold down a professional job [for long at least]

Same with legalising drugs, you might sell it in safe quantities, but that just gives the illegal trade a way back in straight away, but anyway you’ve no control over how people will use it, and the ways they will invent to abuse it, or what they’ll mix it with. You will (unwittingly perhaps) add to the heap of human misery and probably deaths of people that otherwise wouldn’t have.

I’m all for decriminalising personal use, but legalising it will kill people.

Why would you get something of unknown quality on the black market when you can get a better product at a reasonable price legally?

why would I go to a shop when the dealer will come to my door, will have drugs of known quality that will always be cheaper?

Nickc – sorry dude thats really not how it works.  One of the advantages of a legal market done properly is high quality stuff at a reasonable price easily available.  Colarado mucked up the legal market.  Canada did not.

also what you  are claiming is simply not seen in countries with a legal or decrim market.

Edit – apologies – this should not be about me trying to convince.  this should be a discussion point and your view is valid.

Currently ecstasy pills cost about £5-7 a go and they’re strong, enough for a couple of doses.

Really? Because I never tire of hearing bams talking about taking 2 or 3 of an evening. Either they’re talking shit or taking shit.

why would I go to a shop when the dealer will come to my door, will have drugs of known quality that will always be cheaper?

See my point above. What known quality?

I was in Prague for the last week or so, weed is decriminalised there, they sell it by strength. Never had a dealer offer that, the choice was always take it or leave it.

MDMA standard dose is 250 mg. per pill  125 or 100 is a half dose or half a pill. So 4 full doses in a gram of crystal MDMA.   It will get you high but not the full effect on a half dose.  Mdma lasts about 4 – 5 hours so what some folk will do is take half doses at 2 hour intervals thru the night.  rather than a full dose in one go. 3 decent pills in one night will leave you a gurning mess and p[ossibly pass out / lose contact with reality unless very spaced out

Illegal drug market is also split with poor quality stuff cheap for the bams and higher but still unknown quality stuff more expensive for the non bams

so squirrelking your bams are probably doing both 🙂

Yeah if you look at the US states that legalised Cannabis early on, so have a history of data, its worked well. Colorado has seen no extra uptake by users, particularly the young and increased tax revenues that have gone into health and education. Hopefully increased collaboration between Scotland and UK govt might see that happen in Scotland as an initiative for the rest of the UK.

I took any recreational drug I could get my hands on when I lived in Northern Ireland in the nineties aged 18 to maybe 25? I was lucky that the Troubles reduced the availability of the hard stuff, cloud with a silver lining.  Drug use, mainly cannabis and LSD,  probably did hold me back, but you could just as easily say the impediment to growing up/gathering responsibilities at that stage of my life was fanatical mountain biking.

Since moving to Scotland in 1999 mild and now very occasional cannabis use.

Criminalising people for use of any drug is a nonsense. I think people get lost in drugs because of a lack of opportunity.

My very straight edged ex police officer wife who now works as a drug and alcohol recovery nurse agrees with decriminalisation.

I also worked as a sales rep for a major brewer for five years – from what I saw in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee working mens pubs it is a disgrace that alcohol is more socially acceptable than cannabis.

The mental health risk apparent with some drugs is hard to resolve though. That said the government hasn’t outlawed social media that damages kids mental health.

Colorado had real issues early on with the legal product being poor quality ( think this was colorado)  What happened was it was state licensed growers but they refused to license anyone who had been in the illegal market – so the licensed growers had no real experience and thus the product was poor.  they had to start advertising for growers with experience 🙂  They sorted it out tho after a year or two.

Canada didn’t make this mistake so the products were good from day one ass ther illegal growers just shifted to the legal market.  There is still some black market stuff.  I think unlike here tho most of their black market growers were enthusiasts rather than criminal gangs.  do not know for sure.  You go into a cannabis shop and tghere might be 50 differnt products on sale.  You don’t get that in the black market

Its certainly the general trend that after legalization you get an increase in usage then it drops away again to pre decriminalisation levels or even lower.

People far prefer to buy a known quality product from a legal source where this is available assuming the cost is not significantly higher than the black market

from what I saw in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee working mens pubs it is a disgrace that alcohol is more socially acceptable than cannabis.

The thing about alcohol is it is not only socially acceptable, but actively encouraged, and at a governmental level. It is the drug the they insisted we all take.

Our culture is set up around it.

You go into a cannabis shop and there might be 50 different products on sale. You don’t get that in the black market

The reason i gave up smoking weed is i was becoming rather ill. I suspected that it was being sprayed with something nasty, which is something that is known to increase its potency.

undercover tracking smack dealers leading to hundreds of arrests and court

I think he was working in Nottingham and took out one gang. All that happened is that a rival gang that had been trying to move into their area then did it with minimal hassle.

The mental health risk apparent with some drugs is hard to resolve though.

Yes.  One issue is its very hard to do valid research when its illegal.  You rely on folk self reporting and there is often multi drug use so valid conclusions are hard to make

There is a link with cannabis and psychosis.  AS I said above there are 3 theories.  One that its a direct cause and its a lottery if you get psychotic.  Or its purely coincidental and that folk more likely to have psychosis take cannabis hence the higher rates and psychosis often starts in your teens and 20s and the third which I believe is that Cannabis acts as a trigger for those susceptible to psychosis ie they would get it anyway at some point but the cannabis use means it happens now

Cannabis also alters your brain chemistry and this is particularly so with developing ie under 21yr old brains.  However what these changes mean is far from clear.

Legalisation would mean that decent research could be done.  there are theories around THC to CBD and other cannabinoid levels in the weed but as far as I know not conclusive.

countries with more liberal drug laws that ours do not seem to have higher levels of psychosis in young folk as far as I am aware

Mind you when I had some weed and went for a walk in the woods in Canada I was more than a little paranoid about the bears that lurk in the woods 🙂

Lots of MDMA usage or stronger hallucinogens can lead to “fried brains” it would seem – some cognitive impairment but its rare and you have to try very hard and possibly be a multi drug user

Harm reduction does not mean ignoring this stuff.  It means minimizing dangers and legalization makes it easier to get help when required