“Winning your inner mindset game”

This should have been a red flag from the outset.

One branch of my company is a (very established and credible) provider of workplace training courses, some of which address workplace resilience, etc. That course title would be waaaay too cringey for us.

The course delivery people are now typically freelance trainers. I expect the management team (who I do editing and stuff for) would be very keen to hear feedback like yours.

Half my family died of Stage 4 melanoma. It wasn’t for lack of positive thinking. My sister ran the London Marathon on chemotherapy – how positive is that? The speaker was talking nonsense and I’d report it as such, and the offence it caused.

I see the problem, it’s obvious. You haven’t spent enough time arguing with strangers on the Internet. (-: As soon as she said there was ‘evidence’ she gave was an open goal, you should’ve gone “oh, brilliant, can you drop it in the chat?” I’d probably have asked her what her qualifications were too.

In seriousness, I’d almost certainly complain. Or rather, ‘provide constructive feedback’ to HR. Be sure to mention how upset / angry / belittled / demeaned it made you feel in front of a hundred of your peers, some of whom you’ve never even spoken to before. HR departments love that stuff. Because ultimately, if you don’t and no-one else does either, they’ll have spent a fortune on something they think has been a roaring success and probably book in the same company again next month.

I do bristle with stuff like this. Mental health can be fragile and it’s brilliant that your company is so invested in trying to provide help and support during what is a difficult time for everyone. They should be applauded for that. But peddling pseudoscience and horseshit to potentially vulnerable people is a very dangerous game and it needs calling out. With apologies to “your logical fallacy is: slippery slope,” today we have “a positive mental attitude may help with recovery” (placebo effect, tenuous but vaguely plausible and relatively benign in any case), tomorrow we have “stop your chemotherapy and buy my vitamin supplements”.

I think we can all agree that she was on shaky ground and definitely unprofessional, but it’s interesting how many people on this thread know exactly what the speaker said and meant, even though they weren’t there.

Well it’s not clear, but it appears that the speaker brought up the idea of positive thinking curing the OP’s injuries

Correct

and he doesn’t specify who first mentioned cancer.

That was me, regrettably, because I was mad about the above. Not my finest bit of debating. Feels like there should be a medical equivalent of Godwin’s law… I agree though, I (hopefully) wouldn’t have engaged at all with a point like that if I was presenting.

…if others on the call sent you unsolicited messages of support then clearly you weren’t imagining it or overreacting.

That is a good point, thank you, and one I’ll bring up if I do mention it to someone at work.

OP’s injuries, and he doesn’t specify who first mentioned cancer.

I was pretty mad. So I – shamefully – went a bit heavy and said “I’m sure lots of us in this room have lost family members to cancer. Are you saying if they’d thought more positively they could still be here?”.

The OP absolutely brought it up in an effort to escalate / attack the speaker.

@IHN I’ll take a transcript next time 😉

(Incidentally, have you seen MS Teams can actually do that now? Clever/bloody terrifying…)

And windchimes.

I can’t remember where I read it now but I did laugh recently at, “it’s not a dream catcher, it’s string.”

I’m reminded of the words of Tim Minchin.

Or Dara O’Briain,

“Then we tested those herbs, the ones that worked we called ‘medicine’ and the rest is a nice bowl of soup and some pot pourri.”

The OP absolutely brought it up in an effort to escalate / attack the speaker.

Does it matter? A professional speaker should be able to handle a challenge from a participant without going off into La La Land.

(Other Tellytubbies are available.)

We had a diversity and inclusivity interactive zoom session by a Pro speaker last year.

She was terrible, anything off script she got weirdly defensive and argumentative.

So no open discussion was had and any participant answer was one or two words

Maybe it was the same woman you had.

Move on

Good luck

I suspect we all have now experienced teams/zoom/whatever video meetings and conferences now.

They are in general a great way to offer some alternatives to in person meetings but, when presenting a conference or training it is so difficult to read the audience and get messages across that to a degree need body language and audience reaction to guide their path.

I’m in no way defending this trainer as there are clear wrong doings but, she likely got herself into a hole and kept digging down instead of sideways – something else that is easy to do when remote to your audience.

As to the actual point, in general I don’t think having a positive mindset can hurt those involved and around terminal illnesses. Saying they can cure them is far too strong as a sweeping statement to an audience of 100 different people. Maybe she was trying to say being positive can’t hurt but got it wrong and then stuck to it rather than apologising and saying her words came out wrong (that in itself is tricky on a video call as you can lose the audience very quickly there after)

Saying she should be sacked is a tad strong. Maybe asked to justify her actions and the reasons behind them. Then sack her if she really does believe and promote wildly what was said in the OP. 😀

That was me, regrettably, because I was mad about the above.

Well, if you come to deliver positivity training and you end up upsetting your audience, you’re pretty much doing it wrong I’d say.

I’m sure like IHN I saw (probably heard on Radio 4) something that said that those with a positive attitude did recover from injury quicker, but it was totally down to the fact that they would do what they were told to by physio’s and doctors. So, not a ‘cure’ for an injury, but probably a faster recovery from injury.
Maybe this was the instructor was trying to say? Badly.

I don’t think positive thinking actually cures stuff but it certainly helps you deal with it which can (and I think does) lead to better outcomes and in some cases make the difference. I certainly believe form observations in my personal life, that the opposite…i.e. a poor mental attitude and defeatist attitude, can certainly lead to a worsening of physical conditions which ultimately lead to poor outcomes.

Plenty of people out there who have gone against the medical science and beaten the odds because they set out to beat whatever it was that was affecting them with dogged determination. There is something in it for sure, even if it is just a tool for dealing with adversity we deal with in life.

One example is a mate of mine who had cancer of the throat in 2019. Stage 4 when it was diagnosed. He’s a chipper bloke, really optimistic and pretty tough mentally. The doctor picked up on this and significantly compressed his radiotherapy and chemotherapy protocol because he recognised he was physically and mentally tough enough to take it. He literally said it’s going to be hell but I think you can take it. It was and it worked. If he wasn’t so physically or mentally tough enough and went for the normal protocol then who knows what the outcome might have been.

But then again for everyone who beats the odds there are many more who don’t. Who knows what makes the difference? certainly not medical science. Plenty of Humble Pie been dished out to experts over the years.

They are in general a great way to offer some alternatives to in person meetings but, when presenting a conference or training it is so difficult to read the audience and get messages across that to a degree need body language and audience reaction to guide their path.

I’m normally an advocate of remote working, Teams et al. But I fell foul of this recently too.

I did a video presentation at work as part of some “Learning at Work” project. (Where else would you… eh, anyway.) I agreed to it despite it being a very long way outside my comfort zone because you’ve got to challenge yourself or life would be boring.

I thought it would be a lot easier than one I did in the office a couple of years ago, that was one of the single most terrifying things I’ve ever done. But as it turns out, one-way communication is really hard. With an audience you get direct feedback so if say you do a funny and people laugh then you feed on that, it builds confidence. With everyone on mute you could be the ghost of Rik Mayall and you’re effectively still dying on stage.

I’m sure like IHN I saw (probably heard on Radio 4) something that said that those with a positive attitude did recover from injury quicker, but it was totally down to the fact that they would do what they were told to by physio’s and doctors. So, not a ‘cure’ for an injury, but probably a faster recovery from injury.
Maybe this was the instructor was trying to say? Badly.

Could it be that, in fact, it’s more likely the case that patients who are recovering well, fell more positive than those who aren’t?

I recently had to re-certify for a construction related health and safety scheme (CSCS card, for those familiar). As part of the process you do a test, but you also do a short course on health, safety and the environment. It’s mandatory, so quite the little industry of training providers.

On the recent short course, the trainer brought up the subject of ghosts. Yep, ghosts and the risk they pose to health and safety on construction sites. The group went through a shared process of polite laughter at his joke, then wondering if he was winding us up, then gently challenging his clearly deeply-held view that ghosts cause accidents. They can push you down some stairs for one thing, apparently. He wasnt going to back down – ghosts should be risk-assessed.

Wonder if ghost risk can be mitigated by positive thinking?

You mock, but you wouldn’t be the first to fall down stairs due to dodgy spirits.

Saying they can cure them is far too strong as a sweeping statement to an audience of 100 different people.

Again, not sure she actually said it could cure a terminal illness. If she had just said having a positive mental attitude can help people with terminal illnesses have a better last few months/years of their life then she may well be right. She didn’t seem to expand on it in that way though…

As to the actual point, in general I don’t think having a positive mindset can hurt those involved and around terminal illnesses.

The emphasis on having a positive mental attitude can and does hurt people – badly

Not everyone can be positive in the face of devastating diagnosis and those who struggle with it are made to feel guilty, at blame and worthless by the exponents of ” a positive mental attitude” I have seen someone die wracked with guilt because of this.

It totally sucks along with ” fighting bravely” as if being scared is wrong / as if letting go is wrong

its not a harmless piece of fluffyness. Its a a damaging concept. thats why she needs to be sacked for not understanding something so fundamental shows her to be incompetent in the role

It’s similar to some of the god botherers who’ve accosted my son & I when we’re out & about. He has CP and has to use a wheelchair for extended travel. They mean well “offering to pray for him” but I so have to hold back replying “If the c*** can allow brain damage at birth to an unborn child, what the f*** makes you think he’ gonna do anything now?”

With everyone on mute you could be the ghost of Rik Mayall and you’re effectively still dying on stage.

Its even more fun if there is no video of participants. The silence when asking “so does that make sense. any questions?”

For the OP though. Idiots who argue positive thinking is the cure for everything are reasonably common in the charlatan, sorry alternative medicine, world. Sounds like you got one who was branching out into corporate waffling.

I wouldn’t be trying to get her sacked, and raising the issue to cancer put her on the spot. People react in different ways to challenges. Maybe she feels bad about it now and maybe she’ll look to do things differently in the future. Maybe not.

You shouldn’t really be getting het up over employee training anyway. 🙂

Anyway. Whilst positive thinking absolutely helps people cope better, it doesn’t help with survival rates.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3029-fighting-spirit-does-not-boost-cancer-survival/

You mock, but you wouldn’t be the first to fall down stairs due to dodgy spirits.

…don’t underestimate the power of positive drinking.

With everyone on mute you could be the ghost of Rik Mayall and you’re effectively still dying on stage.

I’ve been delivering training solely through Zoom for the last year and it’s a very sad, very dull facsimile of training face to face. 🙁

TJ, I understand this is a subject that’s touched you personally but, maybe we have different ideals on what a positive attitude means.

For sure some oik that blows positivity to the point of being irrelevant and out of touch with the situation they are in can and likely will be unbearable – pretty much like this woman was to the OP.

The type of positive person I’d class as ‘better than the alternative’ is one that knows when to use such positivity and shows empathy and understanding.

Somebody who can’t is just a double glazing salesman. Somebody I want to punch, even without the stress and emotion of terminal illness.

Absolutely golden advice that a colleague gave to me years ago, went something like this:

“Course/meeting/conference/training-do not interact or get involved however provoked or opinionated you feel.

Give the ‘right’ answer if directly challenged by someone in charge or a boss.

These situations are designed to provoke the dipstick in the group to put their head above the parapet so that they can be made an example of.

Ask yourself this: will my opinion change anything in the real world? The answer is no.”

Always worked for me!

I’ve been delivering training solely through Zoom for the last year and it’s a very sad, very dull facsimile of training face to face.

Our team seem to prefer doing it online, but that may be because they don’t have to their spend nights in the Linton Travel Tavern any more.

They say they’ve made a lot of effort to make the sessions interactive, using breakout groups and exercises – but I appreciate that’s not suitable for all topics.

@ginsterdrz – I think that’s really bad advice. Just sit quiet and say nothing is not helping you, the other students or the trainer. If you are the sort of person who has an opinion on everything and is never wrong then it would probably be better to have a bit of internal monologue to work out why you keep getting sent on courses where you know more than the trainer. Otherwise if the trainer happens to be talking shite on this occasion it should be challenged – perhaps you’ve misunderstood them; perhaps everyone else in the room has misunderstood too (ie they explained it badly); perhaps they are wrong or using a bad example and will think twice before doing it next time – but quiet compliance is just perpetuating the myth (either the trainers myth or your personal one that you are right and they are wrong).

It left me feeling completely belittled in front of probably 100 other people in the session.

Perhaps you should feel more positively about this interaction? 🙂

Honestly though, you should. Her statement ‘no wonder you aren’t getting better’ was aggressive and unwarranted, doubling down with the ‘positive vibes help with cancer’ was obvious bullshit. You called her out, used reductio ad absurdum to allow her to make herself look even more ridiculous.

You may have felt belittled at the time, but I’m sure an awful lot of people on that call agreed with your points, even though, regrettably, they didn’t weigh in on your behalf at the time.

Unfortunately the ‘self-help, motivation’ sector is cram full of this type of shyster. Well done on not letting the bullshit slide past unchallenged.

Did she look like this?

Having like most people been to many training sessions over the years I can’t say many have been useful, especially when they start spouting off about mental attitude and the like.
I had a leadership meeting a few years ago and in two subsequent sessions 2 different trainers (who had clearly not consulted with each other) taught us 2 completely conflicting ways to manage people, one based on avoiding ever defining personality types and the other based entirely on defining people as certain personality types. Overall the day was completely pointless!

On the specific subject, advising people to use mental attitude against cancer is the sort of thing that can cause huge harm directed at vulnerable people, if it makes them less likely to follow proper medical advice.
More severe examples of this include religious beliefs that make people avoid getting proper treatments, I’m sure many people have suffered premature deaths due to this over the years.
It amazes me how many people will believe stuff they hear about or read on the internet over highly trained medical
experts.

On the specific subject, advising people to use mental attitude against cancer is the sort of thing that can cause huge harm directed at vulnerable people, if it makes them less likely to follow proper medical advice.

It can also cause devastating guilt in patients who are told that their bad attitude and poor mental health are some of the reasons their pesky tumours aren’t shrinking.

It’s a glib, facile way of dealing with difficult conversations about complex health issues, and betrays both ignorance and lack of empathy in those who spout it out.

The myths around positive thinking are easy to back up with evidence. It is just that a lot of the evidence is automatically skewed to support the myth. for example:

I twonked my ankle. It is now fused but still degrading so I have had 5 further operations since the original on and can reasonably expect a couple more in the next 5 – 10 years. This is not something I look forward to and I would really like to be able to walk properly and not be in pain. That is an objective summary of where I am.

Positive thinking : Yes, I can ride my bike, still getting out and about, have learnt to paint, can still do my job and have a good life.

Clearly the person reporting the ‘positive thinking’ outlook is recovering a lot better than the objective assessment therefor positive thinking has improved the medical outcome. EVIDENCE

Ask yourself this: will my opinion change anything in the real world? The answer is no.”

You’re new here, right?

In 21 corporate years of training, the single most memorable session was our fire safety training. You may smirk at the color of the fire extinguisher. But this was more practical – here’a a wall of burning diesel, your turn, in you go! Great fun and never forgotten. This was in the days when the site had a fire engine.

Almost all of our training is now delivered online by video. There is not a lot of learning there, even the fire extinguishers 🙁

‘But then again for everyone who beats the odds there are many more who don’t. Who knows what makes the difference? certainly not medical science. Plenty of Humble Pie been dished out to experts over the years.’

They get it right a lot of the time though which is conveniently ignored….

Agreed, we had ditzy girls trying to yank out the safety pin, whilst simultaneously squeezing the trigger, trapping said pin in a clamp
You cant learn that from a condescsnding youtube video.
PMA beating cancer is one step away from healing crystals, feng shwai, faith healing, religion and herbal remedies / cbd oil fixing everything
Probably on £90 an hour to push this garbage.

Our team seem to prefer doing it online, but that may be because they don’t have to their spend nights in the Linton Travel Tavern any more.

They say they’ve made a lot of effort to make the sessions interactive, using breakout groups and exercises – but I appreciate that’s not suitable for all topics.

That’s interesting, thank you – I’d be interested to know if it was better in any way other than just not having to have a night away from home. 🙂 We’ve had to do the same, but it’s finding what works – breakout rooms don’t really work for us as we find a few people do all the work and the rest sit back quietly. Engagement is definitely the trickiest thing, I think – easy to see if people are engaged face to face, less easy remotely. We used to just ask questions and people would answer via chat, but exactly the same problem as breakout rooms, as soon as one person started answering, the rest would leave them to it. We use Zoom polls now and wait until everyone’s answered, which is a bit better. But it’s IT training for new starters – in the training room, they all get to follow along and replicate what the trainer is doing, but now they just have to watch what we’re doing. After 11 hours of that over three days, they must be borderline brain dead, no matter how sparkling and effervescent the trainer…

You may smirk at the color of the fire extinguisher.

Of course.

There’s no smirk without fire.

There’s no smirk without fire.

Clappety clap emoticon…