Part 3 of an occasional series
So with STW’s help and advice I have sold the camera gear via MPB and the car to a local dealer. Now the big one – my late father-in-law’s flat.
It’s worth in the region of £125k in its current unrefurbished state, so no stamp duty or IHT issues. Wholly owned, no mortgage, leasehold of 990+ years, in England. An amicable neighbour in the same block has agreed to buy it for only a little under the given price, with a plan to significantly do it up and sell it – he and his son are already doing this with another neighbouring flat in the block, so they are very familiar with the situation. They would pay in cash. They have confirmed no requirement for searches or a management pack. They are fully set to gut it and renovate, so current fixtures, fittings and internals are largely irrelevant. No-one’s currently living in it, and no-one would be moving in immediately.
So with all that stated – can we do our own conveyancing? What do you specifically/actually need to do? Anyone done this themselves?
Obviously it would save us loads of time and effort making it ready for sale, engaging estate agents and going through the rigmarole of selling a property on the open market, and we don’t believe we would be losing out significantly on the sale price either as we have compared the prices of other flats in the block. The usual concerns for conveyancing i.e. convincing a buyer and/or their mortgage lender that the investment is safe appear to be irrelevant… but conveyancing is almost always portrayed as something you should never do yourself. Are there other risks we haven’t considered?

My other half who has a law degree looked into doing this. The issue she found was although you can do most of it yourself there are some bits ( mainly handling the money IIRC) that can only be done by someone with the right qualifications and lawyers charge a significant fee for this so the savings over using a local fairminded lawyer was not enough to be worth the hassle.

I think TJ has it. There should be cheap conveyancers around also.

You can still do the direct sale even if you use a pro conveyancer. No need to go thru estate agents and do all the rest of it.

Conveyancing can be done for about £1,000. That’s hardly a dent in the 125,000 proceeds from the sale, if you’re that worried just add 1k to the sale price!

It can be done for a lot less than that!

Do you know how to draw up the deeds etc, very the documentation right for the Land Registry and be 100% confident everything is absolutely right and watertight?

I just don’t see why you’d skimp and not get a solicitor to do it. Far too much at steak to take a punt at amateur conveyancing. Christ even the pros cock it up often enough…

I’d argue a flats inherently more complex than a house sale too. Access, party walls, services etc

It’s possible but not straightforward.

The seller’s solicitor usually obtains the office copy entries and plan from the Land Registry at the outside. Solicitors do this via a portal.

There are ID requirements – both sides will have to see a solicitor in any event to have ID certified via ID1 forms.

As Duncan said, it’s a flat so probably leasehold. Likely to be some complexity inherent in that.

The buyer’s solicitor may raise enquiries that you don’t know how to deal with. They may also be reluctant to deal with you directly.

You should be able to find a solicitor that will deal with it for around 600 quid. Absolutely no need to use an estate agent though.

Also be aware that the buyer may have some stamp duty to pay if they already own other property.

You can probably do a lot of the legwork in preparation, and get a better price off a friendly solicitor, although they are busy atm.

You will need the last 3 years of service charge accounts from the management company, also some kind of check on buyers source of funds, not sure if self declaration from them is sufficient.

You also may need an energy performance certificate, you do for new tenants so maybe buyers, 50 quid and complete waste of money, no one looked at mine.

Tbh I would just get the buyer to pay for legal work, any deals around 125k will attract interest so keep evidence.

We just sold ours, no chain, no new purchase, cash buyer. Cost £650 after haggling with our local guy for £275k property value.

I’ve done it a few times as a buyer. Its very easy if both parties are agreeable. There is very little risk for seller, the only important thing is getting the money. As a buyer there is a lot more to check but it can all be done diy.

There are two forms to fill out. ID1 to confirm id, and TR1 to do the transfer. You’ll need a copy of the title register which can be downloaded from the land registry for £4

If both parties are happy you can go to the land registry together, with your passport, the fee (about £40) and the forms. How you transfer the money is up to you but I’ve handed a bankers draft over in the office once the form was signed.

If the other party insists on a lawyer you can still do your bit diy. You need someone to sign the ID1, probably for a fee.

A couple of caveats. This is for a cash purchase, if there is a mortgage company on either side then it is trickier. Also not sure about extra complications from leasehold.

There are a couple of good books with guides in if that might help. One by Which, one by Lawpack

Don’t do it. I have two professional qualifications, one in accounting and the other legally based. There’s no way I’d do my own conveyancing.

The money handling, the risk of expensive/time consuming errors in legal documents and the hassle of dealing with someone else’s solicitor whose only interest is the right outcome for their client.

A flat will be leasehold which adds other complications.

Sod that and if I remember rightly this is a death estate so if you then disburse the funds to the beneficiaries you’ve got nothing left to settle any later claims if you make a mistake and possibly no claim on the beneficiaries vs. having a professional indemnity policy you can claim against.

It’s very hard for someone to criticise you for taking professional advice, much easier for not doing so and messing it up

No brainer £500-1000 well spent.

We bought our current house direct, no agent. We told our solicitor what we wanted to do, he got in touch with theirs and all paperwork done and money transferred safely for a few hundred quid. The only issues were to do with getting all the window certificates, planning documents etc. from the seller.

Getting it wrong can be expensive. About 30 years ago my parents solicitor made a mistake on a house sale and got fined significant money. They didn’t have to pay it but if you had no solicitor and make the mistake you would have to pay to get all the legal stuff in order and any fines.

Update and further details… the neighbour/buyer (experienced in buying) does not have, or want, a solicitor, which has already meant that conveyancers we’ve been in touch with have declined to be involved. The buyer has also outlined all the necessary steps (e.g. the ID1 and the TR1) and the paperwork they need – which we have, and are keen for us to proceed – accepting the risk themselves. There’s no mortgage involved on either side.
Other conveyancers have also declined the work on the grounds that they are already too busy with sales being pushed through before the end of the stamp duty holiday!
Does anyone have any specific examples of what can go wrong? I see a lot of warnings but never seem to get any actual concrete examples…

That scares me. Maybe I am overly cynical but why is he so insistent? Dodgy dealings?

The point at which actual, professional conveyancers are refusing to go anywhere near it should tell you all you need to know as to whether it’s a good idea for you to DIY it or not.

The point at which a buyer doesn’t want to use a solicitor is the point at which I’d be looking for another buyer.

Does anyone have any specific examples of what can go wrong?

No. This is why we give money to people who do. You might get a couple of examples but you need an exhaustive list and you’re not going to get that for free, on a mountain bike forum.

I’ll give you an example. I had a ‘simple’ purchase. The previous occupant was an elderly lady who used to have some form of foster care going on for adults with learning difficulties. My solicitor unearthed something somewhere where this meant that it changed the type of dwelling (it was a type 3a rather than type 3, or something like that). This could have had an impact in regards to requiring things like annual check-ups or extra maintenance certificates. In the end it turned out to be a non-issue but this is the sort of random weirdness that could get turned up.

Solicitors are expensive. Mistakes are potentially very expensive.

I smell a bit of money laundering going on, or something dodgy.

Tbh for a grand and solicitors indemnity I would just pay.

Agree with others this all sounds very fishy. For you the risk is something happening to the money and having very little recourse. For the buyer to say they don’t want a solicitor involved but all you have to do as the seller is sign here here and here and we’ll transfer you £100k +, honest guv. They are making it sound ever so easy for you aren’t they?!

The fact that no one will represent you if the buyer does not have a solicitor means they see it as a risky transaction also – I mean how often does a lawyer turn down money. I’ve be heading for the hills on this one or telling them to lawyer up or no deal.

Also, not being funny at what is no doubt a difficult time, but it’s not like you haven’t just come into some money. The fees will come out of the transfer, if it sells for £125k you’ll see £123k of it.

Interesting views…

I agree that £2k out of £125k is, percentage-wise, not a large proportion. But it’s still 2 grand, and it will take, at the current state of the housetrading market, several months of stress to get solicitors and conveyancers all lined up and talking to each other (see other thread about how solicitors are lazy bastards who don’t do anything without being chivvied every step of the way). When there’s no mortgage on either side, all you actually have to do is prove your id, have them prove their id, sign contracts and fill in the form with the Land Registry to notify the change of hands (and transfer the money).

We have tried to look for possible risks from all angles and, simply can’t see anything that isn’t the buyer’s risk rather than ours. Any theoretical nasty discoveries post-purchase are for the buyer to deal with – there’s no way to claim after exchange and completion (that we can find). We will have the money via a CHAPS transaction carried out at the branch with my wife in attendance – they can’t take that back with an PayPal dispute – before we hand anything over irrevocably. The property isn’t going anywhere either – the buyer can hardly run off with it.

About the only thing not covered is if it is money-laundering… but given that the buyer is retired, literally lives next door (in a small flat in Malvern) and has done for over a decade, known to the FiL all that time, it’s a very long con if he’s up to something… he (and we) just want to make a simple deal and get it over with.

The question about examples is still out there – I wasn’t looking for a free and exhaustive list, of course, but for anything that’s actually a concrete example of a problem for a seller. Every example I have encountered has been about discovering or dealing with risks to the buyer (indemnities, searches, things like Cougar’s change-of-use issue etc).

To be honest, I fear I have wasted/am wasting your collective time here – my wife is the executor and she has satisfied herself that she can handle it (she is extremely capable, to be fair). It’s been discussed variously with a family friend estate agent, property purchasers at her place of work, and every time it boils down to this being the simplest possible purchase because the buyer has assumed all the risks. I don’t believe I could change her mind about it at this point… I have raised every concern I could think of! In every case it seems to either be ‘doesn’t apply in this case’ if it’s specific, or it’s the generalised ‘better safe than sorry’ response which I totally get but is not enough to convince her not to do it.

This may be the prelude to a post where I explain exactly how wrong we were, and bemoaning making the bold decision rather than the safe one… but I trust my wife to have thought everything through (she is a chartered accountant – not that it gives her any legal expertise of course, but she is unfazed by form-filling and expensive processes!). Will let you all know!

A few hundred quid for conveyancing not a couple of thousand

Any theoretical nasty discoveries post-purchase are for the buyer to deal with

Discovering that you have been dragged into a money laundering racket and losing not only the £125k but also your reputation and potentially ending up doing time would be enough to put me off. But then I am risk adverse.

Just because he’s a quiet chap and retired doesn’t mean anything to be fair. How many people have their neighbours down as a bad ‘un? There are enough alarm bells ringing with the fact this chap wants to rush it through and wants to avoid solicitors to make me very edgy indeed.

Or you end up at the bank and suddenly the excuses start about why they cannot do a CHAPS transfer and can you take a cheque etc. Then they put lots of pressure on your wife to hurry up and make a decision, she’s wasted everyone’s time here, let’s just get this done etc, don’t you trust me, you know where I live, you’ll have to put it on the market and how long with that take etc etc

But hey, it’s your £125k not mine 😀

Oh and your wife is a chartered accountant and will be willingly involved in a transaction, which if described to her by a client in a professional capacity, would have enough to it to report it to her company’s MLRO?..

Not a professional risk I would take…

Obvious question to me is what do the freeholders think about this- can’t imagine they’d be too happy, they’ll have a bit of exposure here.

I sold a flat privately, buyer wanted possession on deposit, funny as the properties I have bought I usually ask for keys on exchange so I can get started painting. So speak with solicitor and she said no way, it’s a known scam. Once they ‘re in they ‘re staying there and no more money.

Roll forward to last year, I sold a flat, buyer had a draft, my bank wanted 300e to pay it in so I said a transfer is better, solicitor said no as it can be cancelled.

I hate paying professionals but they ‘re worth their fee.

Or you end up at the bank and suddenly the excuses start about why they cannot do a CHAPS transfer and can you take a cheque etc. Then they put lots of pressure on your wife to hurry up and make a decision, she’s wasted everyone’s time here, let’s just get this done etc, don’t you trust me, you know where I live, you’ll have to put it on the market and how long with that take etc etc

That bit at least will stop the operation – she’s got some red lines and that is one of them! It’s not a choice of a few hundred for conveyancers or not, it’s DIY or put it on the market normally so definitely a few £k once agents and solicitors have had their way. The fact he doesn’t want to involve solicitors could definitely be seen as a warning light, I agree, but it is justifiable in that he’s done it before, knows what to do, and doesn’t want to spend time and money if he doesn’t have to… as others on this forum have done.

The possible money-laundering angle can’t be entirely dismissed but honestly is that really a realistic concern? It just seems fantastical to turn down a deal which is what both people want on the remote possibility that the guy is an organised criminal who just happened to live next door all this time and needs a way to clean up a hundred grand. If it was an unknown buyer who had contacted us, sure, I’d be very suspicious, but we (rather coincidentally) managed to get hold of him while we were visiting the property, knew he was doing up another flat in the building and wondered if he would take on a second project. I feel there’s being risk-averse and there’s being verging-on-paranoid and this seems more the latter…

Anyway I appreciate the advice – it would possibly (probably?) be enough to sway me if it were my decision, as I am more prone to thinking of potential disasters – but as I say, I believe the decision to proceed has been made!

Is he really saying DIY conveyancing or no sale?

Thats an even bigger red flag to me. something is very off here. He wants your property but will not buy it if a professional is involved?

I’d call his bluff. If he wants it that much he will back down.

I could not run away fast enough from this .

Is this not really just a question of risk? Spending £500 – £1,000 to mitigate the risk of something going wrong with £125k.

Given high chance of something going wrong, and high impact if it does go wrong, it seems a low cost to avoid the risk.

Even if this was a viable consideration before, there seems to be so many red flags I think you would be nuts to go down that route.

The possible money-laundering angle can’t be entirely dismissed but honestly is that really a realistic concern?

It seems fantastical that someone has £125k lying around and that they are desperate to buy a property with it no questions asked and absolutely does not want solicitors involved. If someone picked up the phone to your wife at work and explained that they were doing this it would trigger just about everything on the checklist for her to report it immediately to the MLRO.

Don’t forget money laundering covers a very broad range and the buyer doesn’t have to be Mr Big, it could be simple tax evasion which still falls under the same umbrella. The point to bear in mind is your wife’s professional accreditation could be at steak though.

As a chartered accountant she could not claim, even if people hadn’t posted warnings all over internet forums about it, that she was unaware of the possibility of it being money laundering.
Similarly, if your wife’s client were the sellers would she advise them to go down the DIY route? I very much doubt it!

I am not for one minute saying don’t grab the opportunity for a quick sale. What I am saying is that for £3-400 you have the certainty that you will actually get your money and that it’s someone else’s problem if the buyer does end up being a touch dodgy.

You know the saying – if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck…

The fact he doesn’t want to involve solicitors could definitely be seen as a warning light is the klaxon sounding and great big red lights flashing all over the building

Oh, and as a final edit – you didn’t want to sell a bit of camera kit on eBay as you were worried about getting your pants pulled down by a dodgy buyer yet you will go through with this?!

It intrigues me that my purchasing legal paperwork is 4.5 pages long.

My equally legally binding Tenant Information pack now runs to 34 pages, including more than is in the purchasing pack and an upto £10k fine if I get it wrong. Yet no solicitor involved.

It seems fantastical that someone has £125k lying around and that they are desperate to buy a property with it no questions asked and absolutely does not want solicitors involved.

Why? Many can quite easily lay their hands that amount of cash and more if they wanted to.

An amicable neighbour in the same block has agreed to buy it for only a little under the given price, with a plan to significantly do it up and sell it – he and his son are already doing this with another neighbouring flat in the block, so they are very familiar with the situation.

The “buyer” is buying into a known property if they have others in same block they are probably well aware of the issues with the flat/block. I’m guessing there is lots WE don’t know about the buyer, the OP can’t obviously relate the feelings you get speaking to people. I know a few people who have bought properties cash without the Columbian drug cartels getting their cut

@bruneep – it is not the buying in cash that is raising eyebrows but the insistence that no lawyers are involved that is suspicious. So insistent in fact the buyer is saying to the seller ‘if you use a lawyer then the deal is off’…

I have just finished studying real estate practice as part of an LPC. The textbook I have which is really only an introduction to the subject is 550 pages. Throughout, it gives many examples of what can go wrong. Having studied it, I would still pay someone else to do it. These are legal contract that can have very expensive consequences if not done right.

This bit made me giggle:

‘all you actually have to do is prove your id, have them prove their id, sign contracts and fill in the form with the Land Registry to notify the change of hands (and transfer the money)’

Good luck!

and we all trust lawyers don’t we. Given my dad’s one **** up his will and cost us £000’s and no comeback from practice and law society they all closed ranks and put up the shutters. I treat them all with great contempt now 🦈

@bruneep – it is fine for the buyer not to trust lawyers but to tell the seller they mustn’t use one as well otherwise the deal is off is plain odd. It becomes even more suspicious when it is the buyer who is making out to the seller all they have to do is sign a few bits of paper – honest guv, you sing here, I sign there and Bob’s your uncle…

If your dad’s will was genuinely screwed up then you do have recourse absolutely and you can take it to the SRA and also the law firm’s professional indemnity provider. If it didn’t happen too long ago feel free to PM me and I will see if I can help on that front.

Does he have the money? Demonstrably? Where from? Have you means-tested him?

If he lives next door and already has a mortgage on his existing property, there is no way while I’ve got a hole in my arse that anyone will offer him another mortgage for an adjacent purchase.

I keep thinking about this thread and I keep concluding this:

Also, not being funny at what is no doubt a difficult time, but it’s not like you haven’t just come into some money. The fees will come out of the transfer, if it sells for £125k you’ll see £123k of it.

I just don’t get why you would take the risk.