http://www.secularnewsnetwork.com/2011/04/european-christians-dont-want-government-to-reduce-income-inequality/

That’s where a new analysis by Daniel Stegmueller, a sociologist at Goethe University in Frankfurt Germany, and colleagues comes in. They looked at data from 16 Western European countries that took part in the European Social Survey in 2002-2006. One of the questions asked in the survey was the extent to which people agreed that “The government should take measures to reduce differences in income levels”.
People who said they had a religious affiliation (Catholic, Protestant, or’other’) were less likely to agree. That held even after adjusting for a wide range of other factors, like age, income, social class, employment status, children, and whether the respondent was on a temporary contract. They also adjusted for the political climate of the country (social democratic versus liberal, and social conservatism).
The interesting thing was that the difference between Catholics and Protestants was quite small, and much smaller than the difference between the religious and the non-religious. The effect is quite large – equivalent to five more years of education or increasing household income by €500/month.

😆

and

Indeed, Stegmeuller found that more religiously polarized countries (defined by the difference in religiosity of religious group members compared with non-members) had lower the support for social welfare.
So religious polarisation reduces support for social welfare. But the surprising thing was that it had no effect on the link between individual religious affiliation and rejection of governmental intervention to reduce inequality.
Even in the least religiously polarized countries, religious people are still just as opposed to the idea that the government should try to reduce inequality.

Confirms everything I needed to know about why people fast or go through with lent…..staves off the cognitive dissonance.

Tom_w1987

Just an observation, but I notice you post a lot of intolerant and judgemental stuff for someone preaching empathy

Ro5ey – Member

If that goes well, I give a full day a go

Anyone else fancy giving it try?

I’ve done seven days before, on a couple of occasions.
None of this half-arsed only eating at night cop-out though, seven whole days with no food and just a finger of water each day.

The hallucinations were incredible.

I’m of the opinion that not eating food when it’s available is profoundly privileged. Not being able to eat for 15 hours makes you feel better about yourself but at the end of the day, comparing that to people actually starving is hilarious – they don’t get to eat at the end of the day and they probably think that people who fast are bat shit insane as when they do get food, they pile on as many calories as possible.

oh…because you can emphasise with someone who is starving because you’ve gone a day without food or water and know how it feels? you’re probably one of those who like telling people that they know what it feels like to starve because they’ve seen some poor starving person on tv once.
if you find it hilarious that someone should choose to fast for a day to help bring them more empathy then it to me it shows that you’re too scared and weak to give it a go because you cant control your own gluttony

Neither do I think that you should have to fast to be able to empathise with people who have no food, that should come naturally.

and you’ve demonstrated on many other threads how little empathy you have of others especially with regards to the middle east…but then again i think you only had empathy for one side and it wasnt the ones who deserved it

I also think that it’s telling that possibly the most unequal countries in the world are those that observe fasting rituals, whilst secular western countries have some of the lowest rates of inequality.[/quote]

i think you’ll also find that most of those countries have suffered at the hands of the very same secular western countries you mention…screwed over in more ways than one and then left to pick up the pieces…historically why do you think these western secular countries are doing so well for themselves and upon whose backs did they get elevated to this position of power/wealth/control?

historically why do you think these western secular countries are doing so well for themselves

The enlightenment? 😆

I mean, otherwise, the Ottomans, Mongols, the Empire of China etc etc etc ad nauseum would also be incredibly by rich now…or at least richer…from all that plundering.

But yes, wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia have been soooooooooo **** over by the west.

Tom_W1987 – Member

I’m of the opinion that not eating food when it’s available is profoundly privileged. Not being able to eat for 15 hours makes you feel better about yourself but at the end of the day, comparing that to people actually starving is hilarious – they don’t get to eat at the end of the day and they probably think that people who fast are bat shit insane as when they do get food, they pile on as many calories as possible.

Neither do I think that you should have to fast to be able to empathise with people who have no food, that should come naturally.

I also think that it’s telling that possibly the most unequal countries in the world are those that observe fasting rituals, whilst secular western countries have some of the lowest rates of inequality.

Yeah but to be fair Tom you don’t actually like Muslims, that’s something which you have made very clear on this forum, so your opinion isn’t exactly very surprising.

In contrast I am deeply impressed by how Muslims have the self-discipline to engage for a month in a very challenging act of self-denial. Specially when you consider how many people in our society are at the mercy of various forms of addiction.

I am sure that I would be a better person for it I could engage in similar acts of profound self-discipline and self-denial.

But then I don’t have a problem with Muslims so my opinion isn’t exactly very surprising either.

Uncle Tom_w1987 – fasting is one of the 5 pillars of islam as is charity. we are obliged to give 2.5% of our wealth/earnings to charity…this increases during Ramadan and is helped by the empathy felt for the poor through fasting.

here are some western secular media sources stating the impact of Ramadan on charitable giving:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/21/muslims-give-most_n_3630830.html

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/uk-muslims-expected-raise-100m-charity-during-ramadan/fundraising/article/1189642

Lots of people practice self discipline on a daily basis, in their own little ways – without ever preaching about it.

Uncle Tom_w1987 – fasting is one of the 5 pillars of islam as is charity. we are obliged to give 2.5% of our wealth/earnings to charity…this increases during Ramadan and is helped by the empathy felt for the poor through fasting.

here are some western secular media sources stating the impact of Ramadan on charitable giving:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/21/muslims-give-most_n_3630830.html

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/uk-muslims-expected-raise-100m-charity-during-ramadan/fundraising/article/1189642

I’m assuming those charitable donations include to their church, synagogue etc etc, most likely significantly changing where that charitable money ends up.

But then the same demographic is more likely to vote conservative…. 😀

Lets not even get into the hilarity of comparing polls done by different groups and using different methodologies.

Lots of people practice self discipline on a daily basis, in their own little ways – without ever preaching about it.

Well that’s wonderful. So what’s the problem? Apart from the fact that you don’t like Muslims.

Trolls are greed so and so, aren’t they? … Always wanting the bigger Billy Goat

And our Troll doesn’t believe in fasting…. there’s a thing 😆

But …. we don’t have to feed him.

Because….

tell you something else…we live in a society where we can have anything we want…all the creature comforts and material needs we could wish for
but other parts of the world and in fact within sertain aspects of our own society there are those who dont have what we have
there are those who dont have a roof over their head, clean clothes on their backs, food on the table
some of them dont have clean running water and dont know when their next meal will come…to them food and water is a massive luxury…whereas we take it for granted…so go on fast for a day and step into the shoes of the less fortunate and feel their pain and suffering…you choose to do it for one day…but many of those less well off than us dont get to choose this way of life

implies that you can’t understand or empathise with people who are starving unless you step into their shoes and “fast”.

Also Ernie, you’re a traitor to your own marxist cause 😛

But yes, wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia have been soooooooooo **** over by the west.

you think they havent? just because they have the wealth and power? the west allows Saudi Arabia to do whatever it wants so long as it feeds the wests need for oil…only the royal family are in a position of comfort…what about those who suffer at their hands through their government policies?
you really dont have a clue do you?

I mean, otherwise, the Ottomans, Mongols, the Empire of China etc etc etc ad nauseum would also be incredibly by rich now…or at least richer…from all that plundering.

how much land the Ottomans, Mongols and Chinese etc plundered and subjugated to their command in comparison to say the modern French, Spanish and British empires?

how much land the Ottomans, Mongols and Chinese etc plundered and subjugated to their command in comparison to say the modern French, Spanish and British empires?

Oh so now it’s just an issue of how much land we grabbed. That makes everything better.

What’s the cut off point before land grabbing becomes unacceptable? 1/5th of the known world? Half of it?

Anyway

Pretty big wasn’t it? Didn’t do them a fat lot of good in the end.

you think they havent? just because they have the wealth and power? the west allows Saudi Arabia to do whatever it wants so long as it feeds the wests need for oil…only the royal family are in a position of comfort…what about those who suffer at their hands through their government policies?
you really dont have a clue do you?

And religion allows and is used to justify the ruling elites position and their treatment of everyone else within Saudi Arabia….but yeah, blame it on the outsiders!

Lets not even get into the hilarity of comparing polls done by different groups and using different methodologies.

yeah because only the zionist methodology matters doesnt it??

Trolls are greed so and so, aren’t they? … Always wanting the bigger Billy Goat

And our Troll doesn’t believe in fasting…. there’s a thing

But …. we don’t have to feed him.

he’s too mentally and physically weak to fast…and too gluttonous too

Pretty big wasn’t it? Didn’t do them a fat lot of good in the end.

no they should have been more ruthless like this lot

and we’re off.

so here it is…my challenge to you is to simply fast for one day…
lets be specific and say fast on Monday (the reason for this is that those who do take part will be at work…focussing on the job should hopefully help pass some of the time and remove some of the distraction of thirst and hunger)

— I may regret this (or even simply completely forget – Twitter people remind me!) but I’m in…

Edit – so for me that means 0434 till 2134 – ouch! https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sunrise+sunset+13+june

Rachel

implies that you can’t understand or empathise with people who are starving unless you step into their shoes and “fast”.

Yeah well you are obviously very special Tom. You understand exactly one hundred percent what it’s like to be starving. There’s absolutely nothing that you could to give you a greater understanding.

However lesser mortals might struggle to have the same level of understanding which you so clearly possess.

And my respect for other people’s cultures and religions is completely in keeping with my commitment to marxism. In the same tradition as working-class marxists such as James Larkin and James Connolly.

You seem a bit upset that we beat the middle east when it came to conquering and technological prowess – as you seem fairly focused on one empire being evil.

Anyway, the real reason why we’ve accumulated lots of wealth – wasn’t just land, it’s because we started caring less about religion.

The Romans, Mongols and Aztecs voraciously conquered new lands in search of power and wealth — not knowledge. In contrast, European imperialists set out to distant shores in the hope of obtaining new knowledge along with new territories.
James Cook [who went on to discover Australia in a British financed semi-military expedition in the 18th Century] was not the first explorer to think this way. The Portuguese and Spanish voyagers of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries already did. Prince Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama explored the coasts of Africa and, while doing so, seized control of islands and harbours. Christopher Columbus ‘discovered’ America and immediately claimed sovereignty over the new lands for the kings of Spain. Ferdinand Magellan found a way around the world, and simultaneously laid the foundation for the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.

Anyhow, at some point – you have to quit blaming inequality on outside influence and start looking at your own root causes for it.

Gonzy my friend … in my attempting to fast I have said I’m in for ALL your reason… so this includes, importantly, your religion.

Please could you accept something from mine, the part time church goer that I am.

Turn the other cheek

🙂

Bit of a random article written by a Filipino – but the Phils suffers from exactly the same issues – blaming outsiders continually. Worth thinking about, if you consider the west to be the major root of inequality.

http://www.getrealphilippines.com/blog/2015/09/did-spanish-colonial-rule-doom-the-philippines-think-again/

Harari asserts that the key cultural feature of European colonial powers that enabled them to conquer the world lay in their thirst for knowledge which they satisfied by mounting audacious enterprises of exploration of the unknown. Harari writes in Sapiens, “European imperialism was entirely unlike all other imperial projects in history.” He continues…
The Romans, Mongols and Aztecs voraciously conquered new lands in search of power and wealth — not knowledge. In contrast, European imperialists set out to distant shores in the hope of obtaining new knowledge along with new territories.

James Cook [who went on to discover Australia in a British financed semi-military expedition in the 18th Century] was not the first explorer to think this way. The Portuguese and Spanish voyagers of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries already did. Prince Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama explored the coasts of Africa and, while doing so, seized control of islands and harbours. Christopher Columbus ‘discovered’ America and immediately claimed sovereignty over the new lands for the kings of Spain. Ferdinand Magellan found a way around the world, and simultaneously laid the foundation for the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.

Indeed, while the other powerful cultures of the time convinced themselves that they knew everything and looked inward into their comfy wealth and prestige, Europeans underwent what Harari calls “a revolution of ignorance”. By admitting that they did not know the answers to a lot of the important questions of the time, Europeans embraced a spirit of exploration and inquiry into the unknown.

We see today the same stark difference between native Filipinos who happily wallow in wretchedness and the exasperated mostly-expatriate observers who can only watch and facepalm themselves at the obvious solutions to that wretchedness that Filipinos choose to ignore. The inherent inability of Filipinos to do things differently in order to achieve a different outcome that has long baffled observers seems to stem from the same condition that afflicted the Aztecs and Mayans — a lack of curiosity over possibilities that there may be bigger and better ways out there worth exploring.

Nowhere is this more evident in Filipinos’ choice of presidential candidates in their national elections. The banal sameness of the political debate — and the options to choose from — election in and election out is astounding. Filipino voters seem to be totally disinclined to even consider that there may be other options. Instead, they imprison their thinking within the same fatal comfort zone that their politics have languished in over the last several decades.
These observations of the way Filipinos continue to choose the easy path of muddling along in mediocrity leads us to a confronting reality — that Filipinos are too lazy to think much less physically explore the uncharted.

No guts, no glory, as the old cliché goes. Glory belongs to those who beg to differ. To the Filipino belongs only the same poverty brought upon by a wholesale lack of curiosity.

Come on people, we can look past our own views on religion for a few days. Gonzy’s going without pudding to get extra gold stars from the big chief.. Yay!

What’s David Icke up to these days?? I bet he can fast like a good’un

Northwind – Member
and we’re off.

😆 Yeap! it is going off!

Much more interesting conversation in me opinion. Woohoo!

————————–

I am sure that in the age of interweb if you do not want to be commented upon, vice versa, you simply do not publish information or your views whatever they may be.

If you do publish your views etc then be prepared to defend them but try not get upset, hurt, or overly sensitive because others do not agree with you.

The world has nearly 6 billion people (majority ZM!) so I do not expect you lot to think the same.

See! Now I want to join the party … arrghhh … 😆

Gonzy my friend … in my attempting to fast I have said I’m in for ALL your reason… so this includes, importantly, your religion.

Please could you accept something from mine, the part time church goer that I am.

Turn the other cheek

he has a hatred for Muslims and its been blatantly obvious from this thread and many more in the past…he nearly reeled me in and i shouldnt rise to his baiting…sorry to everyone else who has commented here

i’ll never let someone like Uncle Tom trully get under my skin. he can troll as much as he likes with his hated filled islamophobic and zionist clap trap.

day 4 update:
i felt a lot fresher yesterday. the tiredness has all but gone. i didnt get round to weighing myself…that will happen this weekend.
i’m going to mark yesterday as being a one off in that i nearly got reeled in by the attempt to derail this thread.

thanks for those who have said they’re willing to take up the Ramadan challenge on Monday.
depending on where you are located sunrise and sunset times will vary. according to official sources the sunrise times are at between 4 and 5am…however we use a slightly different sunrise time (more in line with the nautical twilight start time) this is because it falls in line with the time from which the first prayer of the day can be offered. fasting has to commence before that time has started.
but fir the purpose of this and the fact that i dont want to throw you into the deep end too much we will go off the standard sunrise times.
so from around 4.40am on Monday morning no food, no drink, no smoking and no nookie…until sunset which is around 9.20pm (these times are for london so you will need to check your local times)

it would be interesting and good if you all could post up on here on how your day is going, how the fasting is affecting you (physically and mentally) etc.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ramadan-2016-fasting-sunset-time-sunrise-time-a7073261.html

http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london

just to give you an idea of the stages of detox your body goes through during Ramadan:

[/quote]Detoxification Stage 1 (Day 1 To Day 2) p

On the first day of fasting, the blood sugar level drops. The heart slows and blood pressure is reduced. Glycogen is pulled from the muscle causing some weakness. The first wave of cleansing is usually the worst. Headaches, dizzinessnausea, bad breath, and a heavily coated tongue are signs of the first stage of cleansing. Hunger can be the most intense in this period.

Detoxification Stage 2 (Day 3 To Day 7)

Fats, composed of transformed fatty acids, are broken down to release glycerol from the gliceride molecules and are converted to glucose. The skin may become oily as rancid oils are purged from the body. People with problem-free skin may have a few days of pimples or even a boil. The body embraces the fast and the digestive system is able to take a much-needed rest, focusing all of its energies on cleansing and healing. White blood cell and immune system activity increases. You may feel pain in your lungs. The cleansing organs and the lungs are in the process of being repaired. The breath is still foul and the tongue coated. Within the intestine, the colon is being repaired and impacted feces on the intestinal wall start to loosen.

Detoxification Stage 3 (Day 8 to Day 15)

You will experience enhanced energy, clear-mindedness and feel better. On the downside, old injuries may become irritated and painful. This is a result of the body’s increased ability to heal during fasting. If you had broken your arm 10 years before, there is scar tissue around the break. At the time of the break, the body’s ability to heal was directly related to lifestyle. If you lived on a junk-food diet, the body’s natural healing ability was compromised. During fasting, the body’s healing process is at optimum efficiency. As the body scours for dead or damaged tissue, the lymphocytes enter the older, damaged tissue secreting substances to dissolve the damaged cells. These substances irritate the nerves in the surrounding region and cause a reoccurrence of aches from previously injured areas that may have disappeared years earlier. The pain is good as the body is completing the healing process. The muscles may become tight and sore due to toxin irritation. The legs can be the worst affected, as toxins accumulate in the legs. Cankers are common in this stage due to the excessive bacteria in the mouth. Daily gargling with salt and water will prevent or heal cankers.

Detoxification Stage 4 (Day 16 to Day 30)

The body is completely adapted to the fasting process. There is more energy and clarity of mind. Cleansing periods can be short with many days of feeling good in between. There are days when the tongue is pink and the breath is fresh. The healing work of the organs is being completed. After the detoxification mechanisms have removed the causative agent or render it harmless, the body works at maximum capacity in tissue proliferation to replace damaged tissue. After day 20, the mind is affected. Heightened clarity and emotional balance are felt at this time. Memory and concentration improve.

What’s your source for that nonsense, out of interest?

I’m not going to pick it all apart but here’s one from the beginning.

The first wave of cleansing is usually the worst. Headaches, dizzinessnausea, bad breath, and a heavily coated tongue are signs of the first stage of cleansing.

This is the result of a build-up of ketones, ie your body going into ketosis. It’s not “cleansing”, it’s eating itself because you’ve starved it of calories.

Foul breath, chest pain, headaches, exhaustion, boils, spots, greasy skin/hair, sounds wonderful. I’ve a rubbish diet, but that sounds worse than a rubbish diet to be honest. Plus, I can understand the no food thing (to a point) but no water? That just seems dangerous and/or seriously limiting. Basically reduces you to a level of physical activity that doesn’t require rehydration. Can’t be good for your kidneys either. I wonder if Ramadan has anything to do with the higher incidence of diabetes in the Asian population? Or whether it’s just a general diet thing, or genetic predisposition.

Gonzy, all the best in your endeavour, I think you’re mad to put yourself through it, but I appreciate its really important to you.

Edit; what was that about not swallowing your own saliva? That’s bonkers! (And impossible, I think) where’d that come from?

I’m not going to pick it all apart but here’s one from the beginning.

this came from two of my friends…both of whome are GP’s…they never said it to be written in 100% scientific jargon…but more in laymans terms but they say its reasonably accurate

but please do pick it apart Dr Cougar. with your medical degree i’m sure you’ll do a grand job of putting it right from a scientific point f view and from an actual experienced point of view.

I wonder if Ramadan has anything to do with the higher incidence of diabetes in the Asian population?

the diabetes issue amongst asians is down to their general lifestyles and diets…ramadan happens once a year for 1 month…it can hardly be attributed to an asian person becoming diabetic.

it can hardly be attributed to an asian person becoming diabetic.

Yeah, I’d tend to agree, I think. Must be tough on your body though; especially if your someone (like me!) who’s body is used to getting an excess of nutrition. Mind you, I can see the argument that it balances things out a little bit. It’s a bit ‘binge and bust’ though, not probably an ideal solution.

v8ninety – its tough..but its manageable. the lack of food or water doesnt bother me. the disruption to my sleeping patterns is another matter…it makes things a bit trickier but its a small price to pay IMO

i can still do pretty much all the normal stuff…even riding although i’d only push myself to about 70% instead of giving the full beans

as for the post i put abut the detox stages….i’ve been doing this ramadan fasting malarky for 30 years and with each year all that “nonsense”actually makes sense and i can confirm the body does go through those changes

Over on the David Icke forums there are some experienced fasters who seem to think fasting can cure anything. There are some genuinely helpful tips on there for those trying it for the first time. Some slightly quirky information too but I don’t think that will worry anyone religious 😉

David Icke seems to be doing really well now if anyone was interested.

they never said it to be written in 100% scientific jargon

“Jargon” isn’t the issue, “science” or rather lack of it is the issue.

I understand you fasting due to your religious beliefs and whilst I don’t share those beliefs I applaud you for having the commitment to it and I don’t doubt that you’ll get some spiritual feel-good wellbeing out of it.

But if you’re fasting for “detox” reasons then, well, you’re still in the grounds of belief systems, the body simply does not work like that. You can no more “detox” by fasting than you can align your chakras, focus your chi or expel miasmas. It’s pseudoscience, and potentially dangerous pseudoscience at that.

Point I’m trying to make is, if you’re doing this, please do it for the right reasons.

i can confirm the body does go through those changes

I dare say those symptoms manifest, yes. That doesn’t mean it’s “cleansing” or “detoxifying” anything, it’s mostly trying to adapt to survive.

this came from two of my friends…both of whome are GP’s

I expect the GMC would take a keen interest in them giving out that sort of advice.

he has a hatred for Muslims and its been blatantly obvious from this thread and many more in the past…he nearly reeled me in and i shouldnt rise to his baiting…sorry to everyone else who has commented here

i’ll never let someone like Uncle Tom trully get under my skin. he can troll as much as he likes with his hated filled islamophobic and zionist clap trap.

Hate Muslims? I just dislike religion and religious circle jerks.

But I did manage to goad out of you, your rather strong blame ridden feelings for the west – coupled with your accusation that I’m a zionist because I support a two state solution in Palestine. It could possibly be viewed that it is you that is the one filled with hate.

I can’t believe that you are denying being a pro-Zionist anti-Palestinian Islamophobe.

Who would have thought it?

This is the thing that is really starting to annoy me about this forum.
Does Gonzy go on everyone else’s threads telling them they’re shit because they’re not a Muslim?
Why do you feel the need to do it then, Tom?
I get it, you don’t like religion, and no-one is asking you to.
It would be the polite, grown up thing for you to not comment on threads if all you have to contribute is the same negativity you’ve plastered all over so many threads before.

Also, Gonzy, I’m in for Monday.

A mate of mine often puts pictures of his dinner on Facebook and it’s desperately dull. Now we have someone writing about not having their dinner. Duller still.