Radial lacing all mountian wheels, yes / no?

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  • Radial lacing all mountian wheels, yes / no?
  • Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    you using discs ?

    have you a friend with a video ?

    Premier Icon geoffj
    Subscriber

    OK, would I be crazy to radial lace an all mountain style rear wheel?

    Premier Icon vinnyeh
    Subscriber

    I know it's Friday afternoon, and you've probably had a few at lunchtime, but even so…

    Premier Icon Speshpaul
    Subscriber

    Whats the worst that could happen?

    sofatester
    Member

    Yeah, you'll be fine. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    mysterymove
    Member

    Surprisingly for an engineer on a slow Friday afternoon, nope I've not been to the pub yet ;o)

    I know 3 cross is the recommended method, but that's a little dull!

    OK Straight pull 3 cross to start and then I'll see where it takes me from there…

    coffeeking
    Member

    I can't believe and engineer just asked that question. You are aware of why the spokes pull tangentially, aren't you – i.e. the mechanics behind it? If you're transmitting any torque from hub to rim you NEED tangential spokes unless you have MASSIVELY over-engineered hubs and dont care about flex.

    joemarshall
    Member

    Radial spokes and disc brake on the front wheel?

    Radial spokes and disc brake and driving force on the back wheel?

    Won't it just all snap on the first ride?

    Joe

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Straight pull, or radial? Not the same thing.

    Straight pull… little choice of aftermarket hubs or spokes, Extralite Ultrahubs spring to mind, with CX-Rays or Aerolites, but again not easily available.

    Radial? On the drive side can be fine (but I wouldn't bother), on both sides… are you on crack?

    mysterymove
    Member

    Yep, I'm fully aware that driving / braking forces pull tangently from hub to rim. Was just thinking a little out side the norm and wanted to try something new with the way spokes are held into the hub.

    I'm really quite happy with the Hopes and Burgtec's I already own. So hey regardless of you lot flamming how good I am at my job, I just fancied having a go at making some of my own!

    Change and Progress is dangerous stuff you know ;o)

    mysterymove
    Member

    OK, would I be crazy to radial lace an all mountain style rear wheel? i.e. straight pull rather than 3 cross

    Not so worried about the front radial lacing that should be fine?
    Iโ€™m thinking about designing and making my own hubs :o)

    I've seen a front disc braked f wheel laced radially 'as an experiment' – needless to say, it didn't last long.

    That was with conventional J bend spokes though. I can't see how it'd be any less stupid with straight pull spokes.

    out of interest, is there realy enough flex in a hub body for it to make a difference which side is laced radialy and which is 2x or 3x?

    Incidently i have a radial spoked coaster braked rear wheel. Its 140 spoked though!

    cynic-al
    Member

    Change and Progress is dangerous stuff you know ;o)

    I'm sorry but you must be a rubbish engineer to have even asked the question, whether it's about radial lacing or striaght pull spokes.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    You could probably get away with doing the drive side, but you'd be trueing/rebuilding it all the time I reckon if you were really thrashing it.

    Premier Icon sockpuppet
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    straight-pull spokes, fine.

    radial, whether straight-pull or not, not fine. as said, you could do one side the wheel radially, but for 'all mountain' it would be form over function IMO.

    you do know that radial and straight-pull are different? nothing you've said so far suggests you do…

    plus, speeling fail.

    Straight pull from the hub 2 or 3 cross to the rim, will be fine.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    You can't choose how you lace a straight pull hub, the spokes come straight from the rim to the hub, the only straight pull radial hubs are things like the previous generation Bontrager Race X Lite road wheels, which incidentally are also straight pull radial on the drive side too.

    It's not 'progress' except in a backwards direction, we went away from radial laced wheels when everyone realised it didn't provide enough support on a disc braked front wheel, let alone rear!

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    A radial spoked wheel using conventional spokes (ie with a bend in them)

    A wheel with straight pull spokes (not radial in this case but they can be)

    Some factory built wheels (eg Mavic) use radial lacing on the drive side due to having a special hub – you can't do this on normal hubs. You can't have radial spokes on the disc side cos the forces will rip the wheel to pieces.
    I've had both conventional spoked and straight pull radial laced front wheels on a V-braked MTB before, both seemed plenty strong enough. Commonly used on road bikes as well.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    out of interest, is there realy enough flex in a hub body for it to make a difference which side is laced radialy and which is 2x or 3x?

    A conventional hub body, yes. If you make it massively oversized and therefore torionally stiff, maybe not (that's what the hub bodies which do drive side radial are).

    Given we're including roadie in this discussion, Mavic R-Sys are radial straight pull (amongst other things). Old non-disk CrossMax were as well I think.

    mysterymove
    Member

    Wow, this has opened a can of worm's! Check this out personal insults and everything…

    Cheers for the relative, valuable and informative feedback ๐Ÿ™„

    Have a good weekend guy's

    Dibbs
    Member

    You could probably get away with doing the drive side,

    Some of the Shimano road wheelsets have the rear wheel laced with radial spokes on the drive side and straight pull spokes on the non-drive side.

    allthepies
    Member

    BURN HIM.

    Oh, you already have….

    Isambard can rest safe in his grave tonight ๐Ÿ˜‰

    cynic-al
    Member

    mysterymove – Member
    Wow, this has opened a can of worm's! Check this out personal insults and everything…

    You new round here?

    If you say you are an engineer then you will get a slagging, particularly if you are clearly clueless!

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Old non-disk CrossMax were as well I think

    Indeed they were, and on the drive side on the rear.

    Mavic R-Sys are radial straight pull

    Yes, and look what happens to them (as you were alluding to…):

    walleater
    Member

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL…..

    coffeeking
    Member

    mystery – we're just a bit baffled by your asking. You say you know why its done tangentially yet want to try radial. I presume you were using mistaken terminology with "straight pull", I could be wrong. If you know why its done, you'd simply not ask the question unless you fancy eating gravel for the sake of looking slightly different. The forces generated by radial-with-torsion through the spokes are pretty huge, no normal hub would survive it, and an engineer could see that at a glance – thats why you're getting confusion and insults! But dont take any of it seriously, we all ask odd questions at times and everyone on here rips us to bits 50% in jest ๐Ÿ˜‰

    IMO your initial post was very confusing it throws into the air, without clarification, thoughts of radial lacing of disc hubs and redesigning of straight pull hubs, all of which are a recipe for disaster. Clarify a bit ๐Ÿ™‚

    Digimap
    Member

    the only straight pull radial hubs are things like the previous generation Bontrager Race X Lite road wheels, which incidentally are also straight pull radial on the drive side too.

    Not sure about that? mine are stright pull crossed on the drive side, straight pull radial non drive. But then that shimano wheel up there is clearly the other way around. Not entirely sure it matters so long as at least one side is dragging the rim round. There might be some dishing based arguments about which side to cross?

    That mavic failure above is more about carbon spoke failure and they recalled them.

    coffeeking
    Member

    Staight pull radial non-drive, normal on drive side:
    http://www.velosportonline.com/products.php?plid=m2b0s155p604

    Digimap
    Member

    ^— Didn't I just say that?

    Oh – scratch that. Conventional crossed on drive side. My mistake.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Yes, and look what happens to them (as you were alluding to…):

    Indeed – was going to say a bit more, but actually thought I'd been far too subtle. I do wonder whether you're just reading what you expected me to say about them (assuming you've read what I've said on threads with pictures like that on!)

    Erm my roval traversee all mountain wheels are straight pull 28 spokes in the rear and 24 up front and guess what? Yep the front non disc side is radial spoked. I don't appear to be dead yet.

    Premier Icon sockpuppet
    Subscriber

    for a hub that has to transfer torque to/from the rim, at least one side should be tangentially laced.

    it can be either side, but at least one side.

    the straight pull thing is a different issue. j bend spokes can be laced radially or tangentially, straight pull spokes likewise.

    interestingly (well, i think so) lots of tangentially laced straight pull wheels that are described as 2 cross are almost functionally the same as 3 cross – the spokes essentially 'crossing' at their paired anchor point on the hub.

    ok, some it's not that interesting…

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    I didn't literally mean that only Race X Lites were the ones with that spoking pattern, just that most (MTB/disc) straight pull wheels are not radially laced. I forgot the Rovals, which is slightly odd as I've got Controle SLs!

    Actually aracer that second R-SYS is a second generation one, post recall, you can see the three stripes on some of the bits of spoke. It appears that was an isolated incident, but I'm sure as hell not paying >ยฃ1000 for a pair!

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Not at all surprised – I should just write what I think of rather than being careful with my words, as I was going to suggest to digimap that I didn't think they'd fixed the fundamental problem with the post-recall wheels.

    I'd not have bought them even were it not for these failures (though given the failures I'd not want to ride in a group with anybody using them). Like most Mavic wheels – or indeed factory wheels in general – they're poor value, that and a complete FAIL at one of the most important criteria for road riding, aerodynamics. Not even all that light compared to what else you can get for half the money.

    interestingly (well, i think so) lots of tangentially laced straight pull wheels that are described as 2 cross are almost functionally the same as 3 cross – the spokes essentially 'crossing' at their paired anchor point on the hub.

    That depends what you think "3 cross" implies. In isolation it actually says a lot less about a wheel than many people seem to think – you need to at least know how many spokes, if not also the size of the hub. What you actually want is hub tangential lacing – 3 cross happens to be the best approximation to this with 32 or 36 spoke conventional wheels. With 24 spokes you wouldn't fit 3 crosses in, so 2x is better. As you've identified, with straight pull hubs where spokes don't connect at regular spacings around the flange, the number of crosses becomes a bit vague.

    Meanwhile, my 24 spoke roadie rear wheel (you can see a reasonable shot of it on the road bike picture thread) is 3x/1x ๐Ÿ˜‰

    mingsta
    Member

    This is one of today's better posts.

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