no brand I have ever dealt with has ever offered a warranty for the lifetime of the original owner. It’s for the realistic lifecycle of the product

So, playing devil’s avocado (sorrynotsorry) – why not just state the realistic lifecycle of the product as the warranty period?

Unless… they can only define that when the individual product lines begin to fail – and therefore the “lifetime warranty” ends at the point where most buyers might need it?

Is that too cynical?

In practice, for high performance products at longer timescales it comes down to a balance of whether a failure has most likely to have occurred from fair wear and tear or whether it has occurred from a design or manufacturing fault which would have existed from new, but presented later on. Which is why it’s such a grey area, although good warranty departments will have a handle on this as they will be the ones witnessing the recurrence of common faults. A warranty’s intent is really to cover against any manufacturing defects, it’s not a promise that a product will perform for ‘x’ many years.

It’s not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when ‘lifetime’ is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.

Had similar with Mondraker a few years ago. Haven’t bought anything with a ‘lifetime’ warranty since…

Van Nicholas..

1.1          Van Nicholas will replace (not repair) any Titanium frame that fails due to manufacturer defects in materials or workmanship for the lifetime of the frame. Every bicycle has a limited life, the so-called useable life-cycle. The duration of the useable life-cycle of bicycles depends on the type of frame, the way in which and the circumstances under which the bicycle is ridden and the care/maintenance the bicycle receives. The lifetime guarantee period is established on the basis of the duration of the useable life cycle of the bicycle. Van Nicholas sets the lifetime of their frames at an average of 25 years.

I guess you can argue that 25 years is hardly a “lifetime”, at least not in the human sense. However, at least they’ve quantified it.

Thats carefully worded from Van Nicholas but still essentially ambiguous. After 10 years and the frame cracks at the head tube, who determines whether it’s failed from defective workmanship or from continually plowing into that pothole at the end if the drive for example? Also if their entire range is averaged at 25 years then how long should one expect their raciest offering to last? Ironic as have certainly seen many Titanium frames lifetime warranties rejected in way shorter timespans, but atleast they’re trying to spell it out, most don’t…

RAB Jacket – what’s the point in offering a lifetime guarantee?

Marketing

It’s not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when ‘lifetime’ is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.

Agreed – if the guarantee doesn’t cover the lifetime of the original purchaser then they should simply say how long the warranty is in years.

But TJ has it – it’s just marketing guff.

Stupid of them to claim lifetime on a jacket as clearly they’re not going to last forever. Get a ski instructor wearing it all day every day and you’d be lucky to get two ski seasons out of it.

Scottish Mountain Gear in Musselburgh. Have saved a couple of very old Gore jackets and twice repaired my Shakedry when the cat sharpened her claws on it!

Give them a shout, only drawback is a 3-4 week wait last I checked.

They’ve just emailed me to tell me they’ve retaped the seams on my 15+ year old berghaus, in less than a week.

In Plain English a ‘Lifetime Guarantee’ suggests that, the lifetime of the owner, not some arbitrary lifetime that they deem as being a fair lifetime.

Did nobody read what I wrote or the link I posted?

Direct from a TSO.

A lifetime warranty / guarantee is a marketing term with no real basis in law. It doesn’t mean ‘for ever’ and we shouldn’t expect it to, it means for the lifetime of the pan/jacket/item. Which then comes down to what an averagely normal person would expect a pan/jacket, etc to last for.

Which I and he agrees is a bit catch 22, so they’ll repair or replace for as long as they say it can be, but if they say it can’t then they deem it to have exceeded its lifetime, and it’s up to you to argue that you reasonably expect it to last longer.

Er, not really, did Rab design the zip?. Zips fail because of wear and tear, contaminants, and folk howking at them blindly forcing them up or down.

Er, yes. Rab chose the zip, there aren’t that many parts to a coat, so you’d expect them to check that the zips that they use are of sufficient quality, last x cycles of being open and closed, are tolerant to a reasonable about of misalignment when being opened and closed, etc.

Contaminants and people blindly forcing them up and down would come under abuse, although in the case of contaminants it is unreasonable to expect none whatsoever, unless Rab expect people to do their zips up in a vacuum.

As others have said, they shouldn’t enhance their reputation by offering what appears to be lifetime warranties and easy repairs, and then change their mind as they see fit. I really like my Rab gear, but I will think twice for future purchases.

Devil’s advocate

They are offering a lifetime warranty. You don’t understand what ‘lifetime’ means and are interpreting it wrong.

Did nobody read what I wrote or the link I posted?

Direct from a TSO.

I don’t care what your mate in the Trans Siberian Orchestra says, they shouldn’t be using the term in marketing in a way that clearly makes so many people believe it’s something it’s not.

I’m going to take some persuading it’s not used in a deliberately misleading way TBH

and I’d argue (DA again) it’s not misleading because I know what lifetime warranty means.

Yes apparently it means the lifetime of the product which is a totally arbitrary and effectively meaningless concept that is never even vaguely defined in the terms and conditions because it’s so open to interpretation/inconsistency.

They should either be stopped from using it at all in marketing or have to have an obvious:

*the term lifetime does not mean the lifetime of the user and is entirely at the manufacturer’s discretion

On the tag.

And they should learn to replace a **** zip.

WHAT IS A LIFETIME WARRANTY?
Our Rab Promise commits to bring you long-lasting and rewarding experiences from your Rab clothing and equipment. If we get it wrong and your item fails due to a manufacturing defect during its usable lifetime, we will step in and make it right

From the Rab website

Seems clear to me. I think the bigest problem is people not seeing that what is covered is manufacturing defects

Put it another way

Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?

On an expensive waterproof jacket I would expect 5-10 years of moderate use at least. This one is borderline admittedly but saying you can’t replace zips with all that spiel on the website about your skilled and dedicated repair team is pretty pathetic.

Seems clear to me

3 pages (so far) of discussion suggests not.

This guy offers a 30 year guarantee on clothing.

30 Year Sweatshirts (Men's)

The 30 Year Sweatshirt is built to last a lifetime but is also backed with 3 decades of free mending. If anything happens to it over the next 30 years, send it to us and we will mend it and send it back to you. That means the cost of repair and return postage is on us.

Went shopping at decathlon a few months back for a pair of sunglasses whilst wearing a quecha jacket I bought back in the UK in 2017.
Joked with the girl at the till that the stitching on the sleeve had opened up.

I’ve now got a new fleece.

Bought in the UK. New jacket in Germany. No receipt.

They should either be stopped from using it at all in marketing or have to have an obvious:

*the term lifetime does not mean the lifetime of the user and is entirely at the manufacturer’s discretion

On the tag.

But they aren’t stopped from using it in this way, the way that it is interpreted by every other company making the same claim, and the way that is accepted by the average person in the street. Yet they are getting bad mouthed when really your beef should be with the ASA?

the way that is accepted by the average person in the street

Citation needed.

Yet they are getting bad mouthed when really your beef should be with the ASA?

They want to be seen as a quality reputable company – they shouldn’t make misleading claims about their products. The ASA could look into it but I guess they have bigger fish to fry

They aren’t really getting bad mouthed either are they, just some people are finding out the reality of what ‘lifetime’ actually means. Isn’t that a good thing?

Case in point which many will be familiar with…you find a crack in the BB of a top end road race frame covered by a ‘lifetime’ warranty, but it’s over 5 years old.

How long would you reasonably expect a “top end” frame to last for?

If a cheap, hammered MTB frame cracked after 5 years I’d be pissed, let alone a “top end” road bike that’d been pootled along on the flat all its life. As a kid I spent approaching twice that length of time kicking the everloving snot out of a Raleigh Boxer which just kept on going. I’d expect a top end road bike to outlive me.

Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?

Uh. Yes?

If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?

Otherwise, issue a 1/2/5/10/whatever year warranty. It’s disingenuous to advertise a lifetime warranty and then counter with “yeah, it’s end of life after seven months.”

Le Creuset for one

Le Creuset is proud of the workmanship in its products and guarantees its enamelled cast iron cookware, from the date of purchase, for the lifetime of the original owner, whether a self purchase or received as a gift.*

Ha ha ha ha ha…

Having tried for months to get Le Creuset to either repair or replace a set of pans that the enamelling started to pit (all of them not just the odd one), I’d say their lifetime warranty is a complete joke. Even John Lewis (place of purchase) were at a loss why they wouldn’t replace them. I’d never buy them again – utter shite.

On the plus side, the bit holder on my £12.99 Cordless Ferrex (Aldi) screwdriver fell off sometime n July 2020; I’d bought it 25/11/19 and used it regularly. These come with a 3 year guarantee on the box so I emailed customer service in Germany who said they’d replace it.

Today I received my brand new screwdriver… 15 months after I first contacted them about the fault 😂😂😂

If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?

A very anthropocentric viewpoint – terms like “lifetime”, “lifecycle” and “mortality” are commonly used in reliability engineering to talk about the expected life of things.

The zip Rab replaced for me was an actual manufacturing defect, the stitching was too close to the edge and the zip and came away you could see it was wonky. 8 years is a very Good innings for a waterproof zip. If you want a zip to last 20 years get a heavy brass one with double storm flaps but then no one would buy the jacket.

OK, I can’t give a citation but as per my first post on the subject, that’s what TS consider a ‘lifetime’ warranty to mean, and as I’m ‘quoting’ my mate who is a (senior, policy setting type of) TSO I take the opinion that it’s what an averagely normal person understands as having some credibility.

I and he agree that it is ambiguous but it isn’t necessarily illegal. And if it was massively misleading then the ASA or whoever looks after this type of non-screen advertising (CAP mentioned in the article I linked) would I assume take action.

Maybe raise a complaint with them? Or a small claim, and see if you can create case law that would answer it completely?

Do people really think that you can walk into a shop at age 25 and buy a jacket. Then spend the next 50 years popping back for new zips, replacement panels seems retaping etc?

Uh. Yes?

If there’s a lifetime warranty on a product then that’s what “lifetime” means, no?

Er no. As 3 pages of roundabout discussion shows. You might think that but you’d be wrong.

They aren’t really getting bad mouthed either are they, just some people are finding out the reality of what ‘lifetime’ actually means. Isn’t that a good thing?

“Highly misleading, marketing BS, attitude sucks, would never buy again, service is s***, deserve to be lumped in with Tucker Carlson, vote with your wallet + spread the negative word on social media……

Yes, it is a good thing that people might understand what lifetime warranty means / is worth in reality. IDK why those that are pointing it out are getting bifters for providing this service, you should be thanking us 😉

“Wow, I never realised that, thanks for explaining.

8 years is nothing. Offer a 2 year warranty and stop lying to your customers.

Otherwise, issue a 1/2/5/10/whatever year warranty. It’s disingenuous to advertise a lifetime warranty and then counter with “yeah, it’s end of life after seven months.”

5 years of what? Trips to the shops on rainy days, or working as a mountain guide under a rucksack?

double post glitch (I wonder if they have the receipt for the forum)

8 years seems pretty good for most any membrane waterproof coat. Zips break but the main thing is they just seem to fall apart: taping abrades; seams break and stretch; membrane delaminates. Zips tend to be fairly OK. Though like some have said, if you want robustness and longevity then don’t choose waterproof zips, get chunky zips with a storm flap.

If you want longevity in a waterproof OP try a Paramo. Great products with really good service backup. If mine ever wears out or becomes unrepairable I’d get another.

Except Paramo aren’t waterproof.

I’ve had a few GoreTex jackets and all except one have worn very well. I have a Paclite jacket that’s 8 years old now and doing better than you could ever expect and has been very abused. The 30 year old 3 ply doesn’t get much action now, but is still in good shape. However all fules kno that Event jackets were rubbish and didn’t last at all- expected lifespan a few weeks . Rab have gone to Gore products now.

Except Paramo aren’t waterproof

My old team of 10 outdoor instructors, outdoors everyday in the Highlands no matter the weather, beg to differ.

Some would perhaps be enlightened by reading Paramo’s warranty.

Spoilers: lifetime warranty – defined as the lifetime of the product, 3 years of regular use given as a guide

Except Paramo aren’t waterproof.

Technically in the sense of resisting a hydrostatic head, no. Functionally in terms of keeping you comfortable and dry – at least in cool, wet conditions – yes. As long as they’re properly maintained and you’re aware that if you, say, lean against a wet rock face, the pressure will allow water to pentetrate. I’ve seen a similar thing under pack straps with a heavily loaded rucksack. So yes and no basically.

Let’s be honest, it’s difficult to argue that “lifetime warranty” isn’t misleading to a lot of people, if they’ve not previously been made aware that it means the expected lifespan of the product.

I now work in marketing myself, and I’d say it’s deliberately disingenuous to an extent, but probably with an aspect of “keeping up with the Joneses”.

However, I do think there’s potential for a brand to make a thing out of saying “we don’t do lifetime warranties and here’s why…” and offering specific length warranties. That would obviously be a marketing ploy in itself, but since marketing is about building trust – and transparency helps to build trust – that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.

Let’s be honest, it’s difficult to argue that “lifetime warranty” isn’t misleading to a lot of people, if they’ve not previously been made aware that it means the expected lifespan of the product.

The heart of the issue.

Counter argument (Devil’s advocate if you want)

Does anyone look at the swing tag on a jacket and think that the lifetime guarantee really means they can get it repaired or replaced for the rest of their life? Really, that doesn’t make you stop and think ‘nah, that can’t be right’

Are people that easily mislead? Or are they being wilfully mislead and now using that ‘misunderstanding’ to push the edges of what the averagely normal person would understand by it if they’d stop and think about if for a moment, or asked what it really means?

Nothing in life is that free, including new jackets every few years and if it looks too good to be true, then it is.

End of DA.

I think that the advertising people need to tighten it up, and I note too that on quick googling most places have some sort of disclaimer so are not simply saying ‘Lifetime Guarantee’ with their fingers crossed in their pockets. Would be interesting for a brand to break cover and see what effect it had.

I’m a bit of a mountain equipment fanboy, love their kit.

They have a similar wording, mibbe folk should actually read that before buying, instead of just the big grabby headline?…

We define reasonable life as the time a product could have been reasonably expected to last when subjected to normal wear for its intended use. It is not indefinite and our decision is final. By its very nature our assessment of what is reasonable life is open to some interpretation but we feel it is the fairest method by which to guarantee our products.

As a guide, the majority of our products should be expected to last anywhere between 3 and 5 years, longer in the case of some products such as packs and certain sleeping bags and considerably less if used professionally or continuously on expedition etc.

However, I do think there’s potential for a brand to make a thing out of saying “we don’t do lifetime warranties and here’s why…” and offering specific length warranties.

That would be problematic in itself. One year in the life of a mountain guide’s shell jacket is probably equivalent to several decades of occasional weekend warrior use. Which is different again to someone who gets out every weekend. [Edit: as per the ME terms above. And hey, who reads that stuff before buying a jacket? Part of the shorthand thing of being a brand is people trusting you, in general terms, to stand behidn your product, it’s kind of factored in rather than mostly being specific I think]

And you can’t warranty against wear. Wear is wear, it’s expected. Unless the materials/contruction are defective, you can’t really expect a brand to commit to replace anything that’s worn out by normal use.

Where you’re right is that it’s more about managing expectations. One of the problems with increasingly lightweight gear is that it also tends to be increasingly less durable, but not all consumers have recalibrated and somehow expect a 300g lightweight shell to be as durable as the 1200g one they bought back in the 1990s and is ‘still going strong’.

A lifetime warranty on manufacturing defects is pretty meaningless, as any will be realised within the first few months of use, anything else will be wear and tear, however they should be more explicit with this as they do use it as prominent marketing, and for some people (such as the OP) it could be a deciding factor in them buying Rab as opposed to Blacks own brand.

With regards to the zip, as someone else has said you could argue that they have sourced / specified this badly.

I also take issue with the current trend for ‘lightweight’ products, its virtually impossible to get high spec waterproof jackets that are going to stand up to a hard life, the same goes (especially) for a certain brand of off-road running shoes. There’s a minority movement of ‘Fast and Light’, but it seems to be a marketing fad to make you buy a new version of something you’ve already got, which is likely to be less featured, protective or as durable.

One of the problems with increasingly lightweight gear is that it also tends to be increasingly less durable, but not all consumers have recalibrated and somehow expect a 300g lightweight shell to be as durable as the 1200g one they bought back in the 1990s and is ‘still going strong’.

Yup – See Cougars point regarding his childhood Raleigh v a top end road bike, if you want some kind of correlation, kids bikes are either gonna become very expensive, or racing is going to be a bit slower.

For me ‘Lifetime Warranty’ doesn’t mean I can get it repaired forever, it says to me that the manufacturer has sourced high quality materials and components, tested it thoroughly and are confident in its ability to perform. It says to me that they are so confident in it that they can offer this warranty, and need to honour it in only a minority of cases as their product is so good, and if they had to they’d soon go bankrupt.