Powder Coating my Heckler

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  • Powder Coating my Heckler
  • SBrock
    Member

    just need to take my Heckler frame to LBS for headset cup removal, I will remove everything myself. A local Powder Coating Company is stripping down for me.

    Any other tips or advice from you guys?

    PS I'm having it done in Brilliant Gloss White!!

    fotorat
    Member

    tape up or grease the shock bearings if you leave them and if you take them out then protect where they fit – you wont get them back in without removeing the paint!

    toys19
    Member

    do not powder coat your heckler the process goes to 130c or even more some to 180c, this has the potential to muck up the careful post welding heat treatment carried out by santa cruz. ask them to spray it 2 pack instead.

    rich-6
    Member

    It'l be fine, Manufacturers powdercoat from the factory, A paint booth goes up to 80 degrees too when done in 2k, Obv there are lower temps you can use round 70s the norm

    Premier Icon cynic-al
    Subscriber

    yeah cover any bolt holes and the pivot "hole"

    On someone's advice here I just had my Joker sprayed not coated. I had a long chat with the sprayer, powdercoat is just paint in a different form it may be very slightly tougher but he reckons not by much.

    I had a big off and the bike hit a tree I was fully expecting chips etc but no damage I could see the impact rubbed it off with my finger and nothing broken. 2 pack is pretty tough and I got a much nicer finish as it's more glossy than PC and the colour is better too (Saab graphite grey metallic).

    toys19
    Member

    It'l be fine, Manufacturers powdercoat from the factory, A paint booth goes up to 80 degrees too when done in 2k, Obv there are lower temps you can use round 70s the norm

    Ahh rich-6 withe greatest respect, can I tell you I love you in advance? Let me assure you, yours is a common misconception, but with 6000 series Al alloys temps over 130c are not a good idea, no it wont be fine, they frequently powdercoat as part of the heat treatment process, at 150 ish degrees its called ageing, and its done to very close control, if you over age you risk embrittling the frame and risk failure in use.

    Don't do it, and if you ever see a frame for sale that has new paint make careful enquiries about how it was painted – if it was powder coated, don't buy it.

    Toys Just a quickie how do you know that it's 150 for ageing I accept it's probably right but I couldn't find the info on line and thought better safe than sorry.

    Good call that man.

    Powdercoat is baked for an hour typically at 130 I was told I could see that weakening these alloys.

    Natural Aging. The more highly alloyed members of the 6xxx wrought series, the copper-containing alloys of the 7xxx group, and all of the 2xxx alloys are almost always solution heat treated and quenched. For some of these alloys, particularly the 2xxx alloys, the precipitation hardening that results from natural aging alone produces useful tempers (T3 and T4 types) that are characterized by high ratios of tensile to yield strength and high fracture toughness and resistance to fatigue. For the alloys that are used in these tempers, the relatively high supersaturation of atoms and vacancies retained by rapid quenching causes rapid formation of GP zones, and strength increases rapidly, attaining nearly maximum stable values in four or five days. Tensile-property specifications for products in T3- and T4-type tempers are based on a nominal natural aging time of four days. In alloys for which T3- or T4-type tempers are standard, the changes that occur in further natural aging are of relatively minor magnitude, and products of these combinations of alloy and temper are regarded as essentially stable after about one week.

    In contrast to the relatively stable condition reached in a few days by 2xxx alloys that are used in T3- or T4-type tempers, the 6xxx alloys and to an even greater degree the 7xxx alloys are considerably less stable at room temperature and continue to exhibit significant changes in mechanical properties for many years.

    Precipitation heat treatments generally are low-temperature, long-term processes. Temperatures range from 115 to 190°C; times vary from 5 to 48 h.

    Choice of time-temperature cycles for precipitation heat treatment should receive careful consideration. Larger particles of precipitate result from longer times and higher temperatures; however, the larger particles must, of necessity, be fewer in number with greater distances between them.

    The objective is to select the cycle that produces optimum precipitate size and distribution pattern. Unfortunately, the cycle required to maximize one property, such as tensile strength, is usually different from that required to maximize others, such as yield strength and corrosion resistance. Consequently, the cycles used represent compromises that provide the best combinations of properties.

    Production of material in T5- through T7-type tempers necessitates precipitation heat treating at elevated temperatures (artificial aging).

    Differences in type, volume fraction, size, and distribution of the precipitated particles govern properties as well as the changes observed with time and temperature, and these are all affected by the initial state of the structure. The initial structure may vary in wrought products from unrecrystallized to recrystallized and may exhibit only modest strain from quenching or additional strain from cold working after solution heat treatment. These conditions, as well as the time and temperature of precipitation heat treatment, affect the final structure and the resulting mechanical properties.

    Precipitation heat treatment following solution heat treatment and quenching produces T6- and T7-type tempers. Alloys in T6-type tempers generally have the highest strengths practical without sacrifice of the minimum levels of other properties and characteristics found by experience to be satisfactory and useful for engineering applications. Alloys in T7 tempers are overaged, which means that some degree of strength has been sacrificed or "traded off" to improve one or more other characteristics. Strength may be sacrificed to improve dimensional stability, particularly in products intended for service at elevated temperatures, or to lower residual stresses in order to reduce warpage or distortion in machining. T7-type tempers frequently are specified for cast or forged engine parts. Precipitation heat-treating temperatures used to produce these tempers generally are higher than those used to produce T6-type tempers in the same alloys.

    Two important groups of T7-type tempers — the T73 and T76 types — have been developed for the wrought alloys of the 7xxx series, which contain more than about 1.25% copper. These tempers are intended to improve resistance to exfoliation corrosion and stress-corrosion cracking, but as a result of overaging, they also increase fracture toughness and, under some conditions, reduce rates of fatigue-crack propagation.

    toys19
    Member

    I cant remember the exact temp I need to look it up in my hong kong book of kung foo back in the office, I'll tell you tomorrow. From memory its solution treat at 550 for 24 hrs, quench, then age at 150c for 8 hrs, if you go to 9 hrs its over aged. I know of an aluminium frame that was accidentally left in the heater at the powder coaters over night at 150c. My point here is that a heat treatment plant is a carefully controlled environment, a powder coating outfit is not a place where they are likely to know anything about metallurgy.

    SBrock
    Member

    mmmmm gonna make a call to Santa Cruz UK in the morning and see what there take on it is!!

    gutted if I can't get it powder coated!

    toys19
    Member

    just talk to SC usa, Jungle the uk importers are just that..

    Spray it up. Mine cost 60 quid and looks ace.

    toys19
    Member

    joolburger, 60 is what I paid, are you in devon? did we go to the same place?

    Premier Icon Bregante
    Subscriber

    mmmmm gonna make a call to Santa Cruz UK in the morning and see what there take on it is!!

    gutted if I can't get it powder coated!

    a mate rang Jungle about getting his Nomad re-sprayed (it's that gangreen colour and it went really dull within about 6 months).

    Jungle told him "DO NOT HAVE IT POWDER COATED – GET IT SPRAYED AT ARGOS – HAVING IT DONE ANYWHERE ELSE WILL INVALIDATE YOUR WARRANTY!!!" 😯

    hilldodger
    Member

    Mmmm, interesting stuff and makes me think more than twice about giving an expensive frame to a 'local powdercoater' more used to doing alarm boxes, fence panels and garage doors……..

    Premier Icon cynic-al
    Subscriber

    Guinea pig here: my 2003 Heckler got pc'd a few months back.

    I'm in Surrey went to my local panel beater and had a chat with the sprayer while the guvnor was out!

    toys19
    Member

    cynic -al, might be ok, they may have heated it up for only 15 mins you never know…

    toys19
    Member

    ps – powder coating steels is fine..

    Premier Icon michaelbowden
    Subscriber

    I've just had a reply from Turner as I want my 5Spot re PC'd. They do their own re-coating service and say that only if oven temps reach 450F/230C will the heat treating be effected.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Orange happily powdercoat their frames from new, and also offer a powdercoating service for older frames, apparently they're not too worried about it weakening the frames.

    Premier Icon Beagleboy
    Subscriber

    When I looked into getting my Orange 5 frame powdercoated I did a bit of browsing and came across a site, I think it was Kona Uk's site, that warned of warranty issues with their frames unless the job was done at a Kona approved powdercoater. I'm sure it was to do with the oven temperatures.

    I got my Orange 5 done anyway, it was lovely, matt black with shiny holographic sparkles through it. Within about four weeks the frame also had a crack right through the top tube / seat tube junction. I can't blame it on the powdercoating process for certain, as the frame was nearly 3yrs old and I ran it with a lot of seatpost showing, but it's a thought, innit. 😕

    The tale does have a happy ending though, as I managed to get a superb deal on a new 2010 Orange 5 frame (I went for the large this time), and it's lovely. My old frame now hangs with pride, battle scars and all, on my garage wall.

    B.

    Premier Icon cynic-al
    Subscriber

    toys19 – Member
    cynic -al, might be ok, they may have heated it up for only 15 mins you never know…

    That's muy thinking, they're not going to leave it in the oven for any longer than necessary.

    IMO if this was really a significant issue, ALL the manufacturers would be sreaming about it in warranty terms. But they're not!

    I've had two frames powder coated. In 2000 during foot and mouth I stripped a Marin attack trail. I was advised by John Whyte himself not to allow the frame to go over 175degreesC. Unfortunately the powder coater ignored me and the frame came back as weak as lead and as light as alu. They paid for a replacement.

    I've also had my 5spot powder coated and received the same advice as Michael Bowden. That was nearly 4 years ago and its perfectly fine.

    It clearly depends on the type of heat treatment applied during manufacture.

    I would have never even considered this issue and at least people can check with the manufacturer before they go and bake all the strength out of their frames!

    Still though I am very happy with the spray work I've had done and there are definately more colours available!

    st
    Member

    So presumably SC batch out their frames for 2 different heat treating processes. The anodized frames go to one place for full heat treating whils thte powder coated frames go so far then get finished off in the paint shop????

    I've had in excess of 10 frames powder coated at the same place over the years including a number a aluminium frames. Never had any problems personally or heard from people that have subsequently bought them from me about problems.

    It'll be fine ;o)

    Premier Icon letmetalktomark
    Subscriber

    Only advice I can give is…..

    If they are sand blasting it first be careful to make sure all the sand is gone from the threads/seat tube.

    I know first had what a pain in the a$$ this can be. Nothing like an unnecessarily scratched seatpost or stuck bolt.

    I recently had a frame painted by Argos (2 pack finish) whilst more expensive the finish is way better than the local PC I use.

    Just a thought.

    toys19
    Member

    cynic-al – Member

    That's muy thinking, they're not going to leave it in the oven for any longer than necessary.

    IMO if this was really a significant issue, ALL the manufacturers would be screaming about it in warranty terms. But they're not!

    cynic-Al, lets hope they didn't, but as I said before there is no way to be sure what they did.

    As far as manufacturers making noises or not I don't think its an issue as most peeps don't powder coat until a frame is older, or if they buy one 2nd hand. I am sure that if you bought a brand new frame, and next day powder coated it shocking pink down the local engineering shop, if it broke and you sent it back they would tell you you invalidated the warranty. Any decent metallurgist/materials scientist/failure expert would have an easy time ripping to shreds any warranty claim in court if it came to it.

    toys19
    Member

    Ok I want to get this clear.

    I personally would not powder coat a Santa Cruz frame; this is due to my knowledge of metallurgy & heat treatment and what a technical person at Santa Cruz told me about powder coating of Santa Cruz frames in 2007.

    As far as Whyte, orange or any other manufacturer I haven't got any experience of how they do heat treatment or powder coating, needless to say if they carry out similar practices as Santa Cruz then I wouldn't recommend you have them powder coated either. According to the literature on the Whyte website they make their frames from 6061 T6 – same as Santa Cruz, I couldn't find any info about Orange but its a sporting bet they use the same material, most manufactures do. If any firms other than Santa Cruz do post weld heat treatment, which is essential to keep the props of 6061-t6 , is another matter entirely. As ScienceOfficer correctly states, it depends on what type of heat treatment was applied in the first place. I would add other dependencies too such as what material its is, and how the powder coating was or is going to be done

    Whilst I am happy to impart any knowledge on here to help people avoid any problems, I personally am not interested in flame war or a pi$$ing contest, which is what this looks like its turning into. If anyone here wants to know more, my email is in my profile, I'm happy to go into detail.

    renton
    Member

    ok, this is quite an interesting subject now.

    im looking at getting my 06 specialized enduro frame powdercoated but im a bit concerend now that doing it will damage the frame.

    my frame has been anodized so im not sure whats involoved in the process for this and if it would have any affect on the powdercoating at all??

    will it be ok??

    Premier Icon takisawa2
    Subscriber

    I've had a few frames powder coated at work, never had any issues, but they always speed up the track so it passes through the radiant oven a bit quicker. Paint goes off ok, just leaves it a bit glossier. I think it probably hits about 120 – 130c.

    I'm told most low temperature PC is about the 120degreesC mark.

    Beagleboy – Member

    I got my Orange 5 done anyway, it was lovely, matt black with shiny holographic sparkles through it. Within about four weeks the frame also had a crack right through the top tube / seat tube junction. I can't blame it on the powdercoating process for certain, as the frame was nearly 3yrs old and I ran it with a lot of seatpost showing, but it's a thought, innit.

    Exactly the same thing happend to my Cove Hustler… 😥

    It seems that most people view powder coating as more durable and longer lasting than paint as well as being slightly cheaper.

    It most likely is but for the purposes of a MTB is it really necessary?

    As I said my two day old 2 pack paint job took a big hit from a tree trunk without any damage and I was told two pack is very sturdy.

    So to me it seems that Powder coat has a more limited range of finishes and colours, "could" and this is very loose cause the frame to weaken and is a bit patchy in terms of who does it as some PC's are better than others.

    Windridge coatings were at the bike show and I've lifted this from their site

    Can my bike frame be powder coated?
    Any metal that can withstand 220 degrees Celsius can be powder coated, this includes the following:
    Conventional aluminum and mild steel frames.
    Frames made from Reynolds 525, 531, 725, 753 tubing that are often silver soldered or brazed.
    Chromium-Molybdenum Steels have a high strength to low weight ratio but are still predominantly steel.
    Titanium in its unalloyed condition is as strong as some steels but 45% lighter.
    We cannot powder coat carbon fiber frames.

    A spray job offers better colours IMHO, tricky finishes like metal flake or pearl and is definately benign. I know what I'd go with.

    st
    Member

    The powder coaters I use have a reception room with 3 walls of colour discs from flat to metallic to pearl all with laquer opetions. They can't do fades or designs but I did have the back end of a steel frame chromed way back and the front end powdered and it turned out really well.

    They specialise in motorbike stuff and when Saracen had a better reputation back in the 90's they did all their frames too.

    If you pick a full powder coating place rather than an industrial shop who knock out limited colours you'll get a good choice.

    I'm not knocking anyone's opinion here but think it all sounds too cautious for my non technical brain to worry about.

    I couldn't find any info about Orange but its a sporting bet they use the same material, most manufactures do. If any firms other than Santa Cruz do post weld heat treatment, which is essential to keep the props of 6061-t6 , is another matter entirely.

    I spoke with Orange the other day and they said they buy in untreated aluminium sheet and tubes and do the post-weld heat treating themselves. They were reluctant to go into the details of what the treatments were (i.e. temps and times etc) but they said there were at least two, and after each one the frame is returned to the straightening table.
    I asked them if they thought that the the heating process during powdercoating might weaken their frames and they were confident that it would not. They said they've been recoating frames for years using standard powdercoating methods with no adverse effects. I asked them where the most common frame breaks that they deal with occur. I assumed that they say the weld areas, but they insisted that breaks are no less likely to occur mid tube/box.
    I hope there's some useful info in here on this topic for you all.
    If you disagree with or would like to challenge Orange on any of this, then please call them direct. I got the impression that they would love to hear from you. 🙂

    you want me to chop up an old frame and test it? sort out ur arguments?
    i dont think itll make a blind bit of difference because at 130C the temp is so low that diffusion will take billions of hours to occur to an extent were the frame will be degraded… but with an oven, tensile testing machine and hardness tester i can sort out what affects it has on i think 7000 series alumnium…only problem is the frames are dodgey shapes…and hard to test…so if anybody has a spare (broken) rear end of a orange 5…that would be alot better because their more angled and easier to test.

    looked at a diagram…heat treatment at 190C for an hour has no affect what so ever… so 130 is fine, these heat treatments take days, so aslong as its gonna be a 130C for an hours thats fine…but i recomend taking it to a proffesional place who speacilise in al frames. ovens can be 100C out if they rnt maintained…thats why people have had bad exoeriences….

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