Pogacar

Two Grand Tours made to look like child’s play! For all the talk of Le Tour having a weak field, lets not forget he made previous Grand Tour winners look like amateurs.

Who wants to start the grey zone and undetectable shopping list to get a STW member in yellow next year? 🙂 Sand worm hemoglobin anyone?

Pogacar, pulled out of the Games with “extreme fatigue”, the OKS said in a statement on Monday.

The Giro d’Italia-Tour de France double winner competed in a criterium race in the Netherlands on Tuesday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/articles/c4ng87zzgl6o

lets not forget he made previous Grand Tour winners look like amateurs.

Which ones?

By saying his Olympic decision was partly based on Zygart not being picked he may have jeopardised his selection for the worlds. So then he could justify doing the Vuelta.

“Which ones?”

Roglic

I haven’t read the whole thread. But six pages in, has anyone got any irrefutable evidence or facts about Pog doping?

Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?

Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?

I think it is more if it walks like a duck type of thing.

Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?

Just this with lots of people complaining about his winning margin of what 6mins over a guy who was in intensive care a few months ago with a collapsed lung, the guy who beat him by 7mins the year before.

He might be doped, he might not be but easily beating Vingago this year is evidence of nothing.

“Which ones?”

Roglic

Crash Roglic?

Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?

Not just STWers. When someone is easily smashing multiple records set by doped up riders it is going to raise a certain amount of suspicion.

I haven’t read the whole thread. But six pages in, has anyone got any irrefutable evidence or facts about Pog doping?

You’d think, if they did, it would be appearing somewhere other than the STW forum. It’s just the standard, ‘they are winning, therefore they must be doping thing’ that may or may not be the case. It’s idle speculation that follows a time-worn and predictable path that relies on it being very difficult to prove a negative.

See also the ritualistic thing where cycling hacks ask TdF winners ‘Can we believe in your performances?’ Or variations on that. As if anyone is going to hold up their hands and say, ‘well actually no, I’ve been using a hitherto unknown DNA manipulation method that artificially boosts my VO2 Max along with an undetectable, synthetically produced EPO booster…’

And then the bit where they actually say, ‘No, I am clean’ and the hacks observe that that’s just what Lance would have said, ergo, they must be doping.

And the whole thing rolls on.

Really it’s just about faith isn’t it? You can choose to watch and hope that performances are mostly clean and that anti-doping measures are far more effective than they used to be and just enjoy the sport as a spectable. Or you can decide that anyone who wins by more than 2o seconds or so is a cheat and spend lots of energy denouncing them without any real evidence. Neither really matters, but at least the former take means you don’t spend hours going down speculative wormholes about asthma inhalers and the like.

None of which is to say that doping isn’t happening, but no, no-one here – surprisingly enough – has any proof that Pog is doping, or, if they do, they’re keeping it to themselves… Cue… ‘omerta etc’

Agree, I just take it as it is and I like Pogacar so happy for him to be winning.

lets not forget he made previous Grand Tour winners look like amateurs.

It’s a thin argument when you dig into it.

Roglic – Injured recently and clearly wasn’t at the level from the Dauphine where he nearly lost to a classics rider…

Thomas – Just podiumed the Giro, ill and getting on a bit. Has never really been competitive against Jonas or Pog

Carapaz – Clearly not on good form at the start getting distanced on the first mountain stage.

Bernal – Still trying to come back from a serious injury also there to help Rodriguez whatever SKY claimed.

Yates S – Clearly not performing well in the first half.

Hindley – Not there for the overall to help Roglic.

Remco – First Tour. Doubts about his ability in the high mountains. Injured recently. To be fair I came away liking him a lot more than I used to.

Jonas – Seriously injured recently.

Then you look at the performances of some of them in the last week and they clearly got better/healthier. Thomas, Yates, Carapaz, Hindley.

Remember that only last year, Jumbo-Visma (as they were then) won all three Grand Tours – a feat that I’m not sure any other team has ever managed. Roglic at the Giro, Vingegaard at the Tour and Sepp Kuss at the Vuelta. And remember in 2023, Pogacar broke his wrist during Liege-Bastogne-Liege and hadn’t had the best prep for the Tour which lead to him cracking in the final week.

And in 2022, they absolutely dominated the Tour – Vingegaard got yellow and KOM, WvA won Points.

The situation at the moment is that Visma-Lease A Bike and UAE Team Emirates are essentially doing what Sky did in the very early days – buy a load of top talent and throw the kitchen sink at one goal. With Sky, it faltered a couple of times when the kitchen sink in question crashed out and they had no other eggs or baskets left. So far, UAE and VLAB haven’t had their star rider crash out, at least not in the targeted race. Clearly though the impact f the crash in Tour of the Basque Country has severely impacted VLAB and the fact they were able to come up with a reasonably credible defence is pretty impressive (or a sure sign of doping, depending on your particular feelings).

I think we have just been lucky to have Pogacar and Vingegaard show us what unique talent are. That they are around together is even better because they can push each other to greater heights.

How they demonstrate their next level to the likes of former GC winners like Roglic and Thomas, for me, just emphasises how mediocre the top contenders had been since Cadel Evans, when old guys in their mid/late 30’s are still on podium.

What annoys me more about Pogacar is not the “is he clean/doped?”, it’s the fact that he makes it look so easy.

Race starts, there’s a bit of action, a breakaway, a catch, Pogacar wins.
It’s unbelievably dull to have one rider so utterly dominant. Same in F1 where there’s a bit of racing, a crash or two, Verstappen wins. It’s just crap to watch.

I’m looking forward to the Olympic RR – partly it has to be said because Pogacar won’t be there but partly because it’s so chaotic with riders on the same trade team become rivals riding for the individual nations for the day, you can;t just buy all the top talent and have “hyper domestiques” for the race.

Race starts, there’s a bit of action, a breakaway, a catch, Pogacar wins.
It’s unbelievably dull to have one rider so utterly dominant. Same in F1 where there’s a bit of racing, a crash or two, Verstappen wins. It’s just crap to watch.

In both those cases there is a lot more going on than who wins (especially in a stage race).

As a fan of Pog, I really hope that he is this unique once in a lifetime super athlete who isn’t doping or rides with some hidden secret motor  :0)

It’s a bit unfair to say that Rog and G are mediocre. These men are some of the world’s strongest, bravest and fittest athletes, they also have the experience and quick thinking that’s needed in the world of road racing. Sadly they do seem to crash a lot.  Pog could easily wear himself out and not be a Grand tour rider in his thirties, time will tell.

If Pog isn’t in the Vuelta Espana then hopefully there’s hope for a Brit to win, Tao Geoghegan Hart could stand a chance or Simon Yates. Hopefully Josh Tarling will be riding.

@slowoldman @tomlevell sure you can make excuses for the rest of the field but they are no mugs and they haven’t turned up making no effort at all

Pog effortlessly riding away from the entire field at will, two GTs in a row is superhuman. The Giro didn’t slow him down at all which is incredible too.

As much as Vins relative performance isn’t too surprising, he still put out career best power numbers up la planche des belles filles whilst Pog was casually riding no handed taking a swig from a bottle, before riding off in to the sunset. Previous crash or not, Vin was flying faster than ever and Pog makes it all look ridiculously easy.

As a casual fan I’d love to see him repeat the same feat at La Vuelta 🙂

I have read vingegaard has decided to race Vuelta, and that Pogacar is also considering. That would be great, and Ogacar could do what nobody else has ever done by winning all three main grand tours in one year.

As much as I`d like Tom Pidcock to be up there with the new guys at the top, I feel he is 2nd maybe third tier and will be lucky to reach what the Yates brothers are achieving in road racing.

I have read vingegaard has decided to race Vuelta, and that Pogacar is also considering. That would be great, and Ogacar could do what nobody else has ever done by winning all three main grand tours in one year.

Would be good to see. From Pog’s point of view, only worth entering the Vuelta (at the expense of Olympic and I assume also World Champs) once he has bagged the other two grand tours – which could explain the late change of plans.

The Giro didn’t slow him down at all which is incredible too

Can’t be understated that winning both is a great achievement, but Pog was in pink with a healthy 45s after stage 2 and had the luxury of managing his effort against so-called lesser GC candidates from there until Milan.

There was an article somewhere last year about the fact that Vingegaard and Pogacar are able to metabolise lactic acid much quicker that other athletes, and this allows them to perform at high intensities in a way that others can’t (of course I can’t find that right now). They were both discovered early as standout athletes, and their training has been developed to maximise their abilities and genetic strengths.

Last year all the focus/suspicion was on JV’s ability to smash Pog on the climbs.

The tables were turned this year. But aside from JV having had his accident the teams look very different this year. Visma last year had a really strong team, and could beat up Pog who didn’t have a comparable team. This year UAE had the strong team, and Visma were without Kuss and Rog, and WvA was also recovering from a pretty horrid accident.

@slowoldman @tomlevell sure you can make excuses for the rest of the field but they are no mugs and they haven’t turned up making no effort at all

Pog effortlessly riding away from the entire field at will, two GTs in a row is superhuman. The Giro didn’t slow him down at all which is incredible too.

None of it was effortless but the others all have a reason why they were on or beyond their current limit. Greg Lemond is also on record before the Tour saying the best prep is the Giro before. It’s just become this big myth that it’s impossible. Dumoulin and Froome nearly did it in 2018. Dumoulin 2nd in both Froome 1st and 3rd. Pog is a far better all round GC rider than both of them.

As much as Vins relative performance isn’t too surprising, he still put out career best power numbers up la planche des belles filles whilst Pog was casually riding no handed taking a swig from a bottle, before riding off in to the sunset. Previous crash or not, Vin was flying faster than ever and Pog makes it all look ridiculously easy.

He says he put out career best power numbers but this was directly at the finish. He’d not looked at power files etc. Just what was on the computer and made his own interpretation. He may have done for the 45+minutes of the climb due to the way it was ridden whereas normally climbs go steady then stop starty for the leaders as they try and find a weakness. That was full on from the bottom. I don’t agree Vin was faster than ever but he was clearly at his current limit.

I have read vingegaard has decided to race Vuelta, and that Pogacar is also considering.

Where? Not seen or heard that mentioned for either. Both have good reasons not to bother. Baby and the damage it might do to next year. Pog has to focus on the Worlds as it’s a rare course where the likes of MVDP and Wout don’t have a chance realistically.

Pogacar is “as clean as his test results”.

Plenty of wiggle room in that statement, I think.

TBH, my take, let the sporting bodies do their job. We’re just chucking peanuts.

The Tour was a decent race, plenty action going on for 2nd/3rd/sprints/KOM/stage-wins.

For me, and I’ve said this earlier in the thread. Its not about who he has beaten, its about the numbers that are being produced. In the road cycling world there was always a theoretical limit of what was achievable clean. He is suprassing that limit.

You then look at his team, and to see an 80kg, 6 foot 3 rider pulling really hard on the flat (expected) and then continuining up the climbs, that to me is a bit more difficult to believe.

Of course none of this is evidence of cheating. Its just not normal. Its also not normal to see a Grand Tour winner being so effective in the one day races. Again not evidence of cheating. But as a lot of us here are …ahem… getting on a bit…. we can remember the old days. And certainly for me, it makes me wonder.

I think it is right to be sceptical. If he was winning within the previously regarded tolerances, I think I would be much more comfortable with that. I do think he is a once in a generation racer irrespective of whether he is on the gear. I would say he is a Nibali esq rider but better. (By that I mean he is capable in certain classics and momuments, as well as being an amazing climber so making him a top GC contender)

Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?

The amount of arse-covering in the media is interesting. Even in today’s Cycling Weekly, Ned Boulting talks about how it’s never certain whether doping is occurring or not, Pog seems lovely and is obviously a fantastic athlete, but finishes with a paragraph pointing out that Pog’s backroom is filled with the dodgiest people in cycling. Boulting’s obviously covering himself ready for when the scandal breaks.  😀

He says he put out career best power numbers but this was directly at the finish. He’d not looked at power files etc. Just what was on the computer and made his own interpretation. He may have done for the 45+minutes of the climb due to the way it was ridden whereas normally climbs go steady then stop starty for the leaders as they try and find a weakness. That was full on from the bottom. I don’t agree Vin was faster than ever but he was clearly at his current limit.

Vingegaard put down the all time second best climbing performance, as confirmed after the ride. Pogacar rode with no hands casually taking a bidon while Vingegaard was going full gas, before disappearing in to the sunset with 5km left (the best all time climbing performance).

Vingegaard is just as superhuman, especially considering his build up to the race, but Pogacar could at least pretend that riding off from the worlds best is at least a little difficult 🙂 The ease he has pulled away from the front of GT stages this year is incredible

and to see an 80kg, 6 foot 3 rider pulling really hard on the flat (expected) and then continuining up the climbs, that to me is a bit more difficult to believe

80Kg still fairly capable of climbing well, ‘only’ have to empty the tank to halfway up to discourage attacks before limping in job done.

In context of thge full climb rarely competitve on the big mountain stages, but they don’t have to do that. Don’t even need to get a good time.

Of course none of this is evidence of cheating. Its just not normal.

This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn’t, is a bit surreal.

Nobody knows if there’s anything underhand going on, but it’s curious to say the least.

You’ve also got to remember that Vins boss is a self admitted liar. How do we get everyone onto talking about others. Oh yeah our crocked GC rider just put out the best numbers ever and was ridden away from. Everyone now talking about Pog the doper. He probably wasn’t putting out remarkable numbers for him in reality.

He may well be doping or he may just be one of those freaks who can do this given the right training stimlus. I’ve got to the point with it that it doesn’t matter until it’s actually a thing.

It’s all far less dodgy looking than Lance coming back or the general EPO era when everyone including the public knew about it but they had to fudge a test that just made a few less people die in their sleep so we all knew the best were on EPO. It was one hell of a show though until Armstrong strangled the life out of it on an industrial scale.

This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn’t, is a bit surreal.

I’m not arguing that though just pointing out that like beating the time up the climb by 3 minutes wasn’t that outlandish considering the way it was ridden. Potentially for someone to ride it was but it’s not suprising it was that big a difference when you compare how it was ridden when Pantani set the record. I know full well the history of cycling from the 90s onwards.

Same with the bit about previous GT winners. None of them bar Pog had a good run in to this race or wern’t even racing for GC. It explains the difference between them but doesn’t mean all or some or most may or may not be doping. History tells us if the winners are so is everyone else down to 20th place (choose any random position you please)

How do we know this isn’t normal?

Have we ever had “normal”

“Of course none of this is evidence of cheating. Its just not normal.

This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn’t, is a bit surreal.

Nobody knows if there’s anything underhand going on, but it’s curious to say the least”

Exactly, it’s all questions and no answers.

How do we know this isn’t normal?

Have we ever had “normal”

The definition of normal:

“conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.”

There has been a fairly typical style of racing for the past few decades, with some exceptions during the Armstrong era. What we’re seeing now far surpasses what we seen from Armstrong and Pantani imo.

The type of racing we’re seeing now hasn’t really happened since Merckx and was strongly considered to be impossible in the modern era.

People are playing it down, saying there’s just no competition, yet the riders themselves are telling us the racing is harder than ever. Bardet claimed the performance he put in this year would have given him a top 5 position 10 years ago. Even MVdP was surprised he was being caught so easily.

Every metric you measure it by tells us the racing is faster than ever.

Pog is dominating every single race, not because everybody else is slower, but because he’s either one of the greatest natural talents we’ve ever seen (alongside Jonas, and perhaps Remco) or he’s found a considerable athletic advantage over the rest, whether it be ethical or not.

Nobody can possibly claim there hasn’t been a massive shift in pro cycling in the past 4 or 5 years. It’s night and day.

You then look at his team, and to see an 80kg, 6 foot 3 rider pulling really hard on the flat (expected) and then continuining up the climbs, that to me is a bit more difficult to believe.

This same point could have been made about WvA. Was it last year’s Tour when he was dropped having done an uphill lead-out for the team, then, somehow made an instant miraculous recovery to get back to them and do more work for Jonas and putting more stress into the rest of the leading bunch? (I may be misremembering so apologies if so…I’m getting old 🙁 )

I will view, as ever, with the hope it’s clean, until shown definitively otherwise.

WvA in 2021 on the TDF, won a mountain stage, a sprint stage and a time trial stage.  Same year he also won:

• Tour of Britain
• Gent–Wevelgem
• Amstel Gold Race

@IdleJon Do you have a link to the article?

Who knows what they are on?

Don’t forget that Miguel Angel Lopez got banned for taking what is essentially an IVF treatment:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/what-is-menotropin-the-drug-that-has-landed-miguel-angel-lopez-with-a-four-year-doping-ban

and Simona Halep got banned for taking an anti anemia drug that was undetectable until 2017:

https://www.reuters.com/sports/cycling/banned-blood-booster-challenge-anti-doping-authorities-expert-2023-07-20/

Bicarbonate of Soda has long been known to give a significant boost to athletes, but in quantities that mess your stomach up pretty badly. Some clever clogs has encapsulated the bicarb so it gets past the stomach and into the gut where it can still do it’s thing without sending you running for the toilets. Maurten ABC is the most publicised product. Like chugging uncooked tapioca, so I have been told.

A cricketer has been pinged for Ostarine, of course he claims contaminated bilberry supplements. I have blood tests a couple of times a year, when I get the follow ups I ask what they were looking for and what they found. So far they have never looked for or had me try to boost my bilberry levels. Perhaps I’m missing out.

Pog’s a massive zone 2 afficianado isn’t he? That’ll it explain it.

He’s changed coach, not sure how/if that has changed the Z2 emphasis though I’d imagine there’s still a fair bit!

(believe heat acclimatisation and TT position were mentioned)