Pogacar

Just don’t want Pog to break Sir Cav’s record in the near future.

You thinking he might come out of retirement in 2034 if Pog takes the record then?

Who says he’ll retire ?(wink)

Just don’t want Pog to break Sir Cav’s record in the near future.

As the greatest rider since Merckx, I could live with him breaking the record.

Any professional rider will be taking every legally allowed enhancement and be tested frequently. Pog will be tested daily and that will include today in the rest day at uncertain times. The probability of a false positive for multiple testing is surprisingly high (about 1/5 for a 1% false positive), so you can imagine that given the daily testing regime, Pog really must be negative. What he IS taking will be subject to speculation, but given the multiple testing, it will be legal.

And I thought Vingegard’s previous TT was the biggest eye opener since Floyd Landis overdid the testosterone patches. He finished 22nd in the Danish National TT in 2019

And I thought Vingegard’s previous TT was the biggest eye opener since Floyd Landis overdid the testosterone patches. He finished 22nd in the Danish National TT in 2019

But going by the logic of your previous paragraph, he will have been legal at the time?

Legal is the important word in all this. You can only make a thing illegal, and test for it when you know about it. Known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns and all that.

he will have been legal at the time?

No doubt. I said it was an eye opener. Of course he probably spent a week in a wind tunnel and optimised everything he could. And had the power on the day over a lumpy course. This TdF TT showed it wasn’t a fluke, but when it comes to short all-out efforts that do not involve bumps, he won’t be competitive as he’s all power/weight not power like Ganna, for example. The parcours definitely helped him.

This sort of speculation is why we can’t have nice things.

This thread IS a nice thing! It’s a civilised discussion about a contentious topic between people who disagree, but are respectful to the others.

What he IS taking will be subject to speculation, but given the multiple testing, it will be legal.

Given the history I’m certainly not 100% that they’re clean now, but on balance I still believe.

In the past though it was pretty obvious what and/or how riders were doping. eg. EPO and its effects were well known and certainly in its earlier years there was no test for its use. There were more than whispers about who was doping and how they were doing it – multiple TdF scandals, Lance books (Walsh, O’Reilly) etc.

There does seem to be any of that now (yet? I hope not).

What he IS taking will be subject to speculation, but given the multiple testing, it will be legal.

You really just cannot say that.  Dopers have historically been ahead of the testers.  Unfortunately you just cannot be sure he is clean as yo cannot prove a negative

This thread IS a nice thing! It’s a civilised discussion about a contentious topic between people who disagree, but are respectful to the others.

Yes fair point.

You really just cannot say that.

Not from a single test, no. But multiple consecutive tests means that during the race, as a minimum, he is not taking substances that are being tested for. Of course there could be some magic potion, as yet undisclosed in the performance enhancement class, that is in covert use. It won’t be anything in preclinical development from any major company – those are already tested for years before they come to market (or fail e.g., SARMs). BALCO slipped under the radar, as they were modifying anabolic steroids for very low consumption in a sports market. Failing a test for roxadustat for example? This article lists Vingegard’s testing last summer. I worked on a similar molecule and WADA were testing for it many years before it was approved.

This sort of speculation is why we can’t have nice things.

In this case we had nice things, lots of them and it was great, and then they all turned out to have crap in them, in some case absolutely loads of the crap. Then we had no nice things and all future things were sort of ruined too. But we got some new things anyway, and they looked pretty nice and we were happy. Except now there’s some brown stuff on the floor near them and we’re not sure if it’s crap or chocolate.

To be fair to Pogacar’s performance yesterday, he had the whole of Visma giving it everything while he hid well back in the peloton until the last climb, where he had Visma’s second best rider giving it everything until his legs fell off, then he had Visma’s best rider, the second best in the whole Tour, sheltering him and giving him a lead out until 5km from the top and then he went for it.

You could not manufacture a better attempt at breaking the record on that climb unless you started it with everyone on turbos/rollers 1km from the bottom of the climb.

Still his performances have been very, very good this year, haven’t they.

(Am I allowed to say I was more impressed by Cav’s performance yesterday?)

didn’t we have this last year? Pog looking like a class above Jonas for about 2.5 weeks of a 3 week race then blowing up? For all their sports science excellent recovery evenings, stage racing takes its toll and he paced himself wrong. Has he done it again this year?

also medical doping is old hat, hidden motors are the new game in towm.

Whatever he’s doing its working, I highly doubt it’s legal but then again I assume the rest of the peloton are doing something similar but maybe not as well.

Just because he’s legal now doesn’t mean he’s clean, how many riders have been caught dopeing many years later but were squeaky clean at the time?

History tells you that riders in the tour have always taken enhancements of some kind, even in the very early years they were taking cocaine and amphetamines! I very much doubt they’ve stopped taking drugs because someone has created a test, they just take something else, adjust the dosage etc. There’s always a way around these things, it’s just a case of how close they want to get without being caught.

This isn’t limited to cycling, I can’t think of another sport where dopeing doesn’t take place!

also medical doping is old hat, hidden motors are the new game in towm.

Linear motors hidden in the road surface, controlled in sections from the team car.

That’s why:

a) getting a few yards clear of your competitors is hard, because you can’t switch the motor on for that section as the competitors would benefit too. You need 5-10m gap.
b) the road surfaces are always new.

(OK nonsense, but I love the madness of the idea)

Of the 12 Slovenians on the WADA banned list, 6 of them are male road cyclists. Another is a female mountain biker. I dunno if that’s coincidence, a comment on road cycling generally, an indication that there’s something to look at at the heart of the Slovenian cycling community, or just nothing at all, guilt by association.

Personally I treat everything that seems unreal as unreal, I long ago cast aside any notion that any of the Peloton aren’t doing every single thing they can to gain an advantage, and I doubt that’s just good nutrition and massage technique.

Just look at Slovenias top athletes for such a small country, their government evens cites this. Sounds like state sponsorship to me.

https://www.slovenia.info/en/stories/what-is-the-secret-of-the-success-of-slovenian-athletes#

Another amazing performance of note I’ve seen over the summer was Ngolo Kante at the Euros, he looked 10 years younger. Wonder if the Saudis are also investing in sports science ?

Of the 12 Slovenians on the WADA banned list, 6 of them are male road cyclists. Another is a female mountain biker. I dunno if that’s coincidence, a comment on road cycling generally, an indication that there’s something to look at at the heart of the Slovenian cycling community, or just nothing at all, guilt by association.

Agreed, Slovenia has produced quite a few outstanding riders recently, for a population of 2 million. That’s a population 2/3rds the size of Wales, who also have access to an outstanding development programme but haven’t yet produced any superhumans.

Personally I treat everything that seems unreal as unreal

It’s quacking, waddling, having ducklings called Donald and Daisy, but people still want to enjoy the belief that it’s the deep section wheels and some gels that make a difference. 😀

Apparently doping was always a thing in organised sports, nothing new.

https://greekreporter.com/2022/10/21/doping-sports-ancient-greece/

Linear motors hidden in the road surface, controlled in sections from the team car.

Nope. Electro-stimulation of leg muscles via the “radio”. Have you seen the size of that device under the skin suit? Different motor.

didn’t we have this last year? Pog looking like a class above Jonas for about 2.5 weeks of a 3 week race then blowing up? For all their sports science excellent recovery evenings, stage racing takes its toll and he paced himself wrong. Has he done it again this year?

Indeed.

And who knows what shape Jonas is really in this year. They’re hardly gonna say if he’s struggling with an illness or something, but it could well come out after.

 That’s a population 2/3rds the size of Wales, who also have access to an outstanding development programme but haven’t yet produced any superhumans.

Well G has won more Tours than Rog, and half as many as Pog.

there could be some magic potion, as yet undisclosed in the performance enhancement class, that is in covert use. It won’t be anything in preclinical development from any major company – those are already tested for years before they come to market

This I find convincing. Teams do not have their own secret labs and mad scientists working on unheard of drugs, So come on then specifics: what drugs are they taking? Muscle buiders, stimulants, oxygen uptake enhancers, airway wideners? And then what’s on the market or close to market and that isn’t tested for?

Re: the difference between TP and JV… don’t forget, in addition to JVs own crash and injuries, Visma Lease-a-bike have lost many of their best domestiques for the Tour through other injuries/crashes.

So, UAE as a team are (much?)  stronger than Visma…

The way he seems to pull away from everyone else just seems a bit ‘off’! 

I bet most of the top XC racers say the same when Pidcock shows up to a world cup round, starts at the back and leaves them racing for 2nd place by the 4th lap

I find it extremely unlikely that a large portion of peloton aren’t on performance enhancing drugs, whether banned currently or not. For that matter I think that cycling is just like other sports in that respect, given the money involved I find it pretty hard to believe that drugs aren’t a factor in the majority of sports. Just because Pog beats someone doesn’t mean that the other person wasn’t on drugs mind, as with all drugs different people react in different ways. My personal assumption is that in competition drug use is limited as there is too much testing, out of comp tho…. that said there are things like lugworm blood that metabolises in the time frame of a race which would make it a goer (https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marine-worm-haemoglobin-could-be-the-new-frontier-of-blood-doping/).

The best evidence for this speculation I have comes from athletes themselves. Here is a paper in a respected journal (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0765-4) that shows that 43% of athletes at the athletics world championship admit to doping. The researchers promised anonymity for the 2000 athletes who took part, but I know if I were an athlete i’d have thought “yeah right” and lied – so 43% has got to be the absolute minimum number of those questioned that were doping.

Maybe cycling is an exception and not like athletics, but I think to think that is naive – just look at Wout a couple of years ago with his back to back super man performances, Vingegaard’s time trial last years, Cav’s turn around from being an also run to winning stages at 39.

That being said, I don’t really mind that they are doping to be honest.

Either they are all clean or they are all not.  I find it unfathomable that only pog is cheating.

This climb may not have been used for 27 years

Apart from in 2015 when it was won by Rodriguez. I wonder how fast he was.

This year’s Giro was the most boring stage race I’ve watched in years, and this TdF is shaping up the same way.

There’s a lot more going on in a grand tour than just the first two or three places.

Cav’s turn around from being an also run to winning stages at 39

Be fair.
He would have had a stage at 38 bar a skipping chain and a subsequent crash.
He might have had stages at 37 if he’d gone.
He did get stages at 36.
And prior to that there were some well documented issues.

Given the history I’m certainly not 100% that they’re clean now,

I think it’s highly improbable they are clean as there is no test in the world that can demonstrate they are.  All you can say with confidence is that they can pass the stipulated tests. That’s a completely different question.

According to some of you, if he wins by a lot he’s doping & if he doesn’t win it’s because he’s trying to hide he’s doping… Good job he’s winning races because he can’t win here.

Cav made a good comment in one of the documentaries, something along the lines of “we used to make bike riders into athletes, now we make athletes into bike riders… It’s all changed”.

Muscle buiders, stimulants, oxygen uptake enhancers, airway wideners? And then what’s on the market or close to market and that isn’t tested for?

Anything in these classes are notified to WADA and all but the latter are banned already. Salbutamol requires a TUI. Detection limits for the PHI EPO stimulators is silly low in urine (1-2 ng/mL). In fact most of the limits are low enough to rule out consumption up to about a week earlier – much longer with hair sampling. Low levels of contamination from supplements, ostatine being a prime example, can result in a positive finding, so pros take supplements that are all carefully monitored, tested and cost 10x what you and I can source. And yes, you can fail a drug test by consuming contaminated meats, and bodily fluids from another person who may be doping!

If I were to guess what they might be taking, it would be something to mask/reduce the effects of fatigue. they all have genetically superior VO2max levels already (goes with the selection criteria – see Cav’s comments), obviously they don’t want muscle in great quantities; Ving is 56 kg and Pog is 63 kg, neither is tall. And they are all caloric restricting to keep weight down. What they want is fatigue masking and recovery, which may be taken whilst on the bike. Would love to see their ibuprofen consumption, for example (Tramadol is now banned).

If I wanted to avoid tests, I’d probably hedge using monoclonal antibodies that require ELISA technology rather than mass spectrometry. Myostatin antibodies were in development for a while for muscle building, but fell by the clinical wayside. EDIT: these are listed as banned in the 2024 document.

WADA list is here if you want to downloadhttps://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/2023-09/2024list_en_final_22_september_2023.pdf

I am sure it’s been said but he has been rinsed the last two years by the bloke in second. Picking on just Pog seems harsh. Loads of them may be juiced who knows but the winners in most sports make it looks easy. 50s gain on a 25min climb is nothing really is it. I have been beaten by mins up a 10min climb whilst putting mins into others. These guys are all super close to each other really. Pog also has by far the strongest climbing team.

As you say 50 seconds isnt much in isolation, but i think the alarms start ringing because he is winning in a verity of terrain in single day races etc…..which as sport becomes more science based it also becomes more specialised, you don’t see a guy winning 1500m race and the marathon in the same year. I know Merckx did it back in the day but sport science was more take a gram of amphetamine every hour and pound out the mile and the cream will rise to the top.

Whatever these guys are on it’s fascinating a combination of science and the human will to suffer

I’m going for something more like super-meldonium personally – weird effects on metabolic function of mitochondria

Can’t imagine ibuprofen would hold a candle to tramadol (no significant central activity, I don’t think – just inflammation (so DOMS-only perhaps – and post-crash of course))

As you say 50 seconds isnt much in isolation, but i think the alarms start ringing because he is winning in a verity of terrain in single day races etc…..which as sport becomes more science based it also becomes more specialised, you don’t see a guy winning 1500m race and the marathon in the same year

Very true, but if Vingago was at his best with his best team around him, would Pog be winning? I don’t think so tbh. We have the same conversations about le tour winners every year. If say Remco was at 30s, would I be less likely to think Pog was doped? No I wouldn’t…we can never know but Pog spanking a very recently seriously injured Vingago is not evidence of anything.

Just remember, that in 2020, there was one Anti-Doping Rule Violation (ADRV) for, you guessed it, Fishing! Pity the Italian who was busted. Testing is more comprehensive than you might think, but approximately 1/175 samples prove to have an adverse finding that needs explaining or a resultant ban will ensue.

Fishing!

ritalin or something like ?

https://www.ukad.org.uk/sanctions <= loads of anti doping violations including for 2020. I’m guessing testing suffered somewhat in 2020 in any event!