Planning permision madness!

How come I can put up a 2.5m high garden room that covers 45% of my garden under permitted development yet I need planning to put a deck in that’s 50cm high?!!

Bonkers!

Because your deck will (potentially)  end up with you looking out over your fence and denying your neighbors some privacy in their garden.

Whereas a shed doesn’t impact on anyone.

We have a summer house and our patio is at ground level ish.   It’s still a bit weird as it’s stepped into a slope that goes both up away from the houses and up towards us so if you stand on the step the fence is only about 4ft high on our side and about 7ft on the other, so we’re looking down into their garden.  It’s their fence so if they wanted to add another 2ft they could, but they’d lose the light.  I’d be pissed if it was the other way round and the uphill side added another 50cm.

Whereas a shed doesn’t impact on anyone.

I’m sorry….. what??

(upstairs windows?)

I’m sorry….. what??

(upstairs windows?)

You asked, I told you the reason. Don’t get angry.

And don’t stand in your upstairs windows staring at your neighbors, it’ll get you into trouble,

Just make sure you are dressed when staring out your windows – if you can see them, then they can see you!

And don’t stand in your upstairs windows staring at your neighbors, it’ll get you into trouble

If only I had some (neighbours) 😉

Upstairs Window – unless you are some sort of perv you don’t stand at it for hours looking into your neighbours garden.

Raised Decking – you could have loads of people round for a BBQ all peering over into the neighbours garden.

Planning can seems stupid but the rules have been put in place for a reason.

Because your deck will (potentially)  end up with you looking out over your fence and denying your neighbors some privacy in their garden.

Whereas a shed doesn’t impact on anyone.

A shed, with its floor 50cm off the ground could quite feasibly have exactly the same view through large patio style doors as a deck would!

Am I right in thinking that whilst a deck (>50 cm ht) requires planning, some work with a mini digger to change the slope/ht of the garden would not normally?  In which case can you re-contour the garden this year and build a deck 30cm above the new contour next year?

If you’ve genuinely got no neighbours then just crack on – who’s going to report it?

Just make sure you are dressed when staring out your windows

Should we ask you how you know?

fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples

A shed, with its floor 50cm off the ground could quite feasibly have exactly the same view through large patio style doors as a deck would!

Am I right in thinking that whilst a deck (>50 cm ht) requires planning, some work with a mini digger to change the slope/ht of the garden would not normally?  In which case can you re-contour the garden this year and build a deck 30cm above the new contour next year?

I think there’s some wording about the height of the shed being measured from the ground level at the highest point.

Our shed base is at ground level, but that’s ~50mm above where it was as the spoil from digging the hole went around it.

On the 2nd point, surely if you’re re-profiling it with a digger you’d just build a patio when you’re done, unless you really want to pry on your neighbors 😂

fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples

Excellent – love facts like that (even if they are not true….this one may well be and I read it on stw so I’m taking it as FACT and will repeat frequently)

Yes, beyond the peeping tom possible issue (I say possible – it’s bollox) AND decking is minging (I thought we’d moved on from this noughties default ‘upgrade’); the fact that you can add a mahoosive addition to your house/garden and not need it but you do if you want to add a giant slip hazard/rat refuge/ potential rotting behemoth to your ground is a bit weird.

Excellent – love facts like that (even if there are not true….I read it on stw so I’m taking it as FACT)

It was on QI ‘tother week!

Because the General Permitted Development Order has to put a limit on how high decking can be (without the need for planning permission) because you always get some clever clogs trying to bend the rules and end up with a massively invasive patio – probably after wanging on about it on a forum somewhere;)

The GPDO just sets out what you can do without consent – it’s not to say you can’t be succesful with a planning application.

Ground level is typically taken as an average over the footprint of the structure. You can’t really contrive it to you benefit.

fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples

Thank you! I’ve been a town planner for more years than I care to mention and I did not know this.

Pedant alert: It’s not a rule as such – more a ‘rule of (blind cobbler’s) thumb’.

Whereas a shed doesn’t impact on anyone.

I’m sorry….. what??(upstairs windows?)

I know this is STW, but a 2 storey shed is taking the mick by anyones standards!

That would have been a great experiment to be part of..

“I can see nip – go back”

“I can see nip – go back”

“I can see nip – go back”

“I can see nip – go back”

“No nip – come forwards a bit. Nip again, back a bit. No nip – perfect”

“Now lady with the large areola…..if you could assume the position and we’ll do the same with you to see if it makes a difference….”

“Cedric…..you’ve been taking a particular interest in all this research – but have been very quiet – anything to add? You’ve gone blind you say – what have you been upto in that observation tower….well, it was worthwhile sacrifice to keep the public safe from filthy prying eyes”

fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples

I am resisting googling that for corroboration.
Source?

That implies someone has come up with a value for ‘standard nipple size’.

That implies someone has come up with a value for ‘standard nipple size’.

I bet Cedric was also involved in that.

That implies someone has come up with a value for ‘standard nipple size’.

All such decisions should be evidence informed, ideally by a Phd in Nipple Sizing.

a Phd in Nipple Sizing

I thought about doing one, but couldn’t see the point…

It’s the height measured from the highest adjacent piece of land (the natural level – you just can’t heap dirt up) – not the average height. So you could have a 5m high patio (or whatever) on a slope.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance

The 21m thing isn’t true. It’s not part of PD rules, it may be in some local authorities own rules of thumb (lots of places uses Essex’s) but it’s not law.

fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples

Is this on a warm day?

@avdave2 – best not, but the same rule applies if you have moved from a top floor flat with nothing around you to a house with neighbours!

A neighbour of mine once took all of their soil from some foundations that they had dug and spread it on the garden, raising the height of the garden on their side considerably. This meant that when they had their first garden party, all of the guests on their side of the fence who were above 5’5 were essentially shoulder height to the top of the fence.

Now we resolved this very amicably and we just put a higher fence in… But I could imagine how it would get very irritating if suddenly somebody built a deck that allowed everybody in the one garden to see to the other

All such decisions should be evidence informed, ideally by a Phd in Nipple Sizing.

I’m sure @stirlingcrispin has that very qualification!

“fun fact – the 21m rule (distance between two upstairs windows that face each other) is based on an experiment from over a century ago to find out from how far away you could see someones nipples”

That must be temperature-dependent surely. British Standards Institute needs to get involved.

On the 2nd point, surely if you’re re-profiling it with a digger you’d just build a patio when you’re done, unless you really want to pry on your neighbors

Hard suracing normally requires planning permission to ensure that it doesn’t discharge poorly and contribute to flash-flooding.

It was on QI ‘tother week!

And where exactly do you think QI researchers get their ‘facts’ from?*

*Shame it was Ray and Bazza rather than Cedric and Shazza.

If I were to put in some decking 50cm high on top of my patio, that would bring it up to approximately the same height as the path round the side of my house to the back door, from which I could look over the top of next door’s fence, but I couldn’t see over the top of the fence from the patio.
Which isn’t there at all now, because it’s disintegrated, the council will no longer replace it, and neither will they.
I guess it’s up to me to stump up £1000 or so for new fencing, the posts for which will be on their side of the property line, because that’s where the holes are. 🤷🏼

I guess it’s up to me to stump up £1000 or so for new fencing, the posts for which will be on their side of the property line, because that’s where the holes are.

the convention is that fences are own by the side with the posts for the reason you allude to.  So unless your deeds say otherwise it is likely  YOUR fence which has written and your responsibility to replace.

the convention is that fences are own by the side with the posts for the reason you allude to.

That’s an interesting one and I have thought about this before due to our circumstances… We moved into a house with a fenced boundary and on one side, the boundary adjoins a public footpath and the original fence had the posts on the path side, but responsibility is clearly ours (as no-one else could be responsible for it, it being a footpath). However, it was a crap footpath that went nowhere as, over the years, properties had land-grabbed ‘their’ bit of the footpath. When we moved in, two of the three houses opposite hadn’t taken the land, but they have now so, by ‘convention’, we/they could assume they are responsible, however we want to remain responsible so all the fence matches when looked at from our garden. There is nothing (that I can find) in the deeds to confirm any responsible.

Convention doesn’t tell you anything useful in fencing. Either it’s on the deeds map, written into the deeds, a restrictive covenant or similar or it isn’t.

In the absence of documentation, build what you want up to your own property line.