plane on a conveyerbelt

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  • plane on a conveyerbelt
  • Premier Icon convert
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    For the aircraft the fly it needs to achieve (in this case) 25mph of forward airspeed over the wings. This could be achieved by tethering it to the ground at a fixed point in relation to the ground and blowing (either through wind or a big **** off turbine) air over the wings or on a still day moving the wings forward in relation to a fixed point on the ground at 25mph. Agreed?

    If the aircraft is to apply EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST it required to JUST make this speed on a normal runway, how when impeded by the drag you acknowledged above will it reach the same 25mph?

    Premier Icon imnotverygood
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    well…it just needs a little more thrust to overcome the small amount of extra rolling resistance.

    Premier Icon convert
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    well…it just needs a little more thrust to overcome the small amount of extra rolling resistance.

    And that is where the experiment was compromised. Obviously if the plane tanked it with huge amount of thrust it could easily take off, especially if you use an aircraft with such a low take off speed so the margins for error are so small. The true test is that the aircraft can take off without using any more thrust than the bare minimum required in normal conditions.

    firepoiboy
    Member

    This is brilliant, when this thread is done can we ask it again?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    If the aircraft is to apply EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST it required to JUST make this speed on a normal runway, how when impeded by the drag you acknowledged above will it reach the same 25mph?

    Who said anything about “EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST”?

    The question is simply “can it take off?”

    It will need exactly the same thrust PLUS a tiny bit more to overcome the extra rolling resistance / wheelbearing drag (or it will require a slightly longer runway)

    Premier Icon convert
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    Who said anything about “EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST”?

    The question is simply “can it take off?”

    It will need exactly the same thrust PLUS a tiny bit more to overcome the extra rolling resistance / wheelbearing drag.

    Sorry, but you entirely missed the point of the conundrum. Of course an aircraft can take off from a rolling runway if it uses more thrust – only a proper thicky could not work that out- think aircraft carier. It’s if it required extra thrust which is the crux of the issue.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    Of course an aircraft can take off from a rolling runway if it uses more thrust

    Premier Icon convert
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    If you thought that was the actual question you must have thought the rest of the world was proper stupid 🙂

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Sorry, but you entirely missed the point of the conundrum

    No, you have. Thrust is nothing to do with the argument. People imagine that the plane simply will not move – hence comments about “why don’t we just replace runways with small conveyor belts”. They picture a plane gaining ‘speed’ (ie groundspeed) on the conveyor, then magically taking off. Of course this won’t happen, but the plane will just accelerate and take off as normal. People don’t get it because they’re idiots.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    Now I know you’re just trolling, convert. 😆

    Mythbusters state the myth as:

    “An airplane cannot take off from a runway which is moving backwards (like a treadmill) at a speed equal to its normal ground speed during takeoff.”

    In one of those earlier threads I stated it as:

    “If you put a plane on a very powerful, very long, very wide treadmill and fired up the engines, then would the treadmill operator be able to prevent the plane taking off by running the treadmill in the opposite direction?”

    http://www.airplaneonatreadmill.com/ states it as:

    “A plane is standing on a large treadmill or conveyor belt. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyor moves in the opposite direction. This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the plane take off?”

    No mention of “EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST” in any of that.

    scuzz
    Member

    “If you put a plane on a very powerful, very long, very wide treadmill and fired up the engines, then would the treadmill operator be able to prevent the plane taking off by running the treadmill in the opposite direction?”

    Yes.

    toys19
    Member

    scuzz – Member
    “If you put a plane on a very powerful, very long, very wide treadmill and fired up the engines, then would the treadmill operator be able to prevent the plane taking off by running the treadmill in the opposite direction?”

    Yes.

    Umm no.

    alex222
    Member

    “If you put a plane on a very powerful, very long, very wide treadmill and fired up the engines, then would the treadmill operator be able to prevent the plane taking off by running the treadmill in the opposite direction?”
    Yes.

    dear god

    Premier Icon miketually
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    My theory: these threads are entirely populated by people who understand the question perfectly, but half of them are pretending they don’t to wind up the other half.

    scuzz
    Member

    Wheels are attached to planes. If you park a plane by putting the brakes on, and then throttle the engine up, the plane will not move.

    The rolling resistance of a wheel varies with the square of the wheels’ rotational velocity (consult any introductory dynamics text). As this velocity can be anything (the treadmill is very powerful), there will be a velocity with a rolling resistance which is greater than the thrust of the engines, just like the maximum friction from the tyre is greater than the thrust of the engines for the parked case.

    Yes, everything will explode, and the rolling resistance coefficient is tiny (around 0.01), but since you asked…

    emsz
    Member

    Areoplanes take off because they have wings, right?

    Just checking.

    Premier Icon Mark
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    Oh Scuzz, please…..

    I really don’t know what to say.

    alex222
    Member

    Wheels are attached to planes. If you park a plane by putting the brakes on, and then throttle the engine up, the plane will not move.

    The rolling resistance of a wheel varies with the square of the wheels’ rotational velocity (consult any introductory dynamics text). As this velocity can be anything (the treadmill is very powerful), there will be a velocity with a rolling resistance which is greater than the thrust of the engines, just like the maximum friction from the tyre is greater than the thrust of the engines for the parked case.

    Yes, everything will explode, and the rolling resistance coefficient is tiny (around 0.01), but since you asked…

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry

    tracknicko
    Member

    dont cry al. the dynamic coefficient of friction will tear the skin right off your face. it’s in literally the most basic textbooks mate.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    scuzz: yeah okay 🙄 I suspect that’s why the other versions simply say the treadmill speed matches that of the plane.

    If we’re allowing the treadmill to be driven close to light speed without anything exploding/melting then it might generate enough force from rolling resistance to hold back a plane at maximum thrust – though the treadmill would probably be displacing enough air backwards at that point that it would actually generate lift and of course a sonic boom at ground level might well launch the plane into the air anyway 😀

    Premier Icon portlyone
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    😆

    What if we put superglue on the treadmill track?

    zokes
    Member

    miketually – Member
    My theory: these threads are entirely populated by people who understand the question perfectly, but half of them are pretending they don’t to wind up the other half.

    *applauds* \o/

    alex222
    Member

    the dynamic coefficient of friction will tear the skin right off your face. it’s in literally the most basic textbooks mate.

    Yes but what about the affect that wind resistance will have on those tear rolling down my face? will that be enough to stop the skin tearing action?

    konabunny
    Member

    (either through wind or a big **** off turbine) air over the wings or on a still day moving the wings forward in relation to a fixed point on the ground at 25mph. Agreed?

    If the aircraft is to apply EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF THRUST it required to JUST make this speed

    Profanity, caps and bold text – engaged.

    Move this thread to Rage Speed 4, Scotty.

    jfletch
    Member

    Everyone is right. Yeh hey!

    Normal conditions – Plane applies a smidgen more thrust and takes off. Whoop.

    Magic superpowerful speed matching treadmill – shakes plane to pieces

    Ignoring rules of reality but obeying certain rules of physics – friction in the wheels matches the max thrust of the plane and it doesn’t take off.

    End of thread!

    gwaelod
    Member

    Wheels are attached to planes. If you park a plane by putting the brakes on, and then throttle the engine up, the plane will not move.

    Yes but on a conveyor belt putting the brakes on will allow the thrust from the engine to act on the conveyor belt, driving it forwards and allowing air to move over the wings, so allowing the plane to take off.

    If you want to take off on a conveyor belt put your wheel brakes on…didn’t we do this 240,000,000 posts ago?

    Premier Icon uphillcursing
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    Methinks you may have “direction of travel” or “troll” issues there gwaelod,

    gwaelod
    Member

    Methinks you may have “direction of travel” or “troll” issues there gwaelod

    No mun…not if the conveyor belt is freewheeling and so isn’t being driven by some sort of force outside of the Plane/Conveyor/Atmosphere system

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    Why would the conveyor belt / treadmill be freewheeling??

    It’s driven. By a motor. In the opposite direction to the plane.

    gwaelod
    Member

    Is it???

    I think I have had a fundamental misunderstanding of this all the way through..I always assumed the conveyor belt was freewheeling

    Premier Icon uphillcursing
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    Hence the “trolling” post.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    I think I have had a fundamental misunderstanding of this all the way through..I always assumed the conveyor belt was freewheeling

    🙄

    Not another one 😀

    Not that it matters, but it would also take off just fine from a freewheeling belt (without needing to use the brakes) for pretty much exactly the same reasons.

    A James
    Member

    Let’s broaden this debate into the Bernoulli effect and the disagreement over its influence on airodynamic lift…. What makes the wing fly?

    Carry on…..

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
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    What makes the wing fly?

    Having a conveyor belt underneath it?

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