It is and one that could do with being fixed, why should a private company not be able to protect its investment and to impose suitable penalties on those that break the terms of use?

You want to empower private companies to be able to issue fines to the general public?

You’ve thought about this, haven’t you.

I had a ticket from these clowns last year. I drove into a car park bought a ticket then went in the shop i was only 5 mins then went home. Next i knew was a few months later a pic of my car going in the car park and one going out the car park. They were they said presuming as i stayed only a brief time that i had no ticket. There was no proof i had or hadnt bought on just their presumption. I had also by this stage obviously thrown the ticket away

I called them up to explain my side but they weren’t interested so i said good luck in court with your obviously strong case and left it at that i had about 5 further threatening letters over the period of about 6 months but have heard nothing since

but at the end of the day your mrs broke the rules. How long does shopping take btw

You want to empower private companies to be able to issue fines to the general public?

You’ve thought about this, haven’t you.

Not really, regulate and let them play by the rules. As found earlier a council can fine you 50-150. Why should a private company not do this if you ignore their rules and take the piss? I’ve had a council ticket for having half a bumper hanging over the bus stop on the street outside my flat while we were loading up for a weekend. the advice “Suck it up princess” so why is private land any different?

Thanks again for all the replys, from what I can find, I’m already too late for an appeal. My wife is getting to the point of paying to avoid court but I’m still undecided.
I am a little surprised by the sympathy the supermarket Giants and private companies get for charging the motorist what I consider to be an extortionate amount of money in fines, but we are in the wrong so I will probably end up paying the £85

There was a 2012 case between the ParkingEye and Somerfield, and at one point the judge stated:

“5 The basic charge was £75, reduced to £37.50 if paid within 14 days of the “Penalty Ticket,” i.e. the first letter. This amount the Judge held not to be a penalty and thus enforceable as against the motorist. If payment was not made within a specified time the charge increased to £135 which the Judge held was probably a penalty and thus unenforceable.”

So whether it’s a penalty or a charge appears to depend on the amount. Where 85 pounds sits I don’t know.

Maybe you could get away with sending them the 50 quid, arguing they have no legal right to charge 85? They’d be unlikely to take you to court for not paying 35 quid, especially given the judge might are it was a “penalty” and not a “charge”.

So which of the grounds of appeal is the right one? Excessive charge? 50-85 seems in line with most other ones.

afaik excessive charge is the most popular “win” in a popla appeal.

While I agree, that supermarkets and other places should be allowed to protect their free customer spaces the more i read about parking companies and the shyster tricks/dubious (sometimes close to outright illegal) practices they pull the less defensible they become.

therag you now need to pay the fine or go to county court and defend it, it’ll probably be after the beavis appeal anyway and chances are whichever way that one goes yours will go the same way. ie if PE win that one you’ll struggle to win yours.

As found earlier a council can fine you 50-150. Why should a private company not do this if you ignore their rules and take the piss?

from what I’ve read councils are legally allowed to penalise you, parking companies are not, they have to prove you have cost them money (which most can’t, certainly not to the tune of ~£80, seem to remember ~£20 was the more likely figure)

So what is the difference between council land and a private car park? Why can’t they fine you the same as a council? You commit the same misdemeanour don’t you? It’s exactly the same thing.

Public land / private land. One is a civil offence covered under bylaws, the other a breach of contract. So no, not the same offence.

Why can’t they fine you the same as a council? You commit the same misdemeanour don’t you? It’s exactly the same thing.

I should imagine it’s a similar case to the police being able to lock you up for being drunk and disorderly but if I find you pissed up wandering about my land if I lock you in my basement til you sober up it would be frowned upon.

vigilante? taking law into own hands?

Vigilante? It’s not that hard? You stayed longer than you paid for. There is a fine pay up. Appealing because you (a) you were wrong, (b) you know you were wrong but decided that you would ignore the penalty? Really!

Next time use a Post-it note to cover part of the number plate when exiting (assuming ANPR was used)

Remove once on the public highway

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31545417

Really!

I wasn’t commenting on the OP, just the legalities. (from what I’ve read, ianal etc etc) private parties handing out their own “penalties” can lead to some dark places.

Thats fine Donk there seems to be more of a point about getting out of a fine that normally starts with I did something wrong can I get out of it.

StuE link is great I’ve had fines from local councils that were similar, so why is that fine? Been done on technicalities by the local council so that is fine but a private company is bad? Regulate but don’t let people off when they were in the wrong

Excellent advice! I like your style.

Not really, regulate and let them play by the rules.

The reason that won’t work is because,

the more i read about parking companies and the shyster tricks/dubious (sometimes close to outright illegal) practices they pull the less defensible they become.

Read back on news stories from a few years ago from before the rules were tightened up, because what you’re proposing is not a million miles from how things used to be. Do you really want enforcement “officers” hiding in bushes, watching for drivers to be out of sight to slap a ticket on before the poor sap comes back 30 seconds later with change for the meter? Or clamping ambulances and hearses with impunity? They won’t “play by the rules”, it’d be like the wild west.

Presumably there are some parking organisations who play fair and have some sort of moral code, but by and large these people exist to send scary-looking threatening letters to people demanding disproportionate sums of money for a minor parking infringement. The OP’s being charged somewhere between fifty and eighty-five quid for overstaying on a free car park, and you want to give these bastards more power?

rules were tightened up, because what you’re proposing is not a million miles from how things used to be. Do you really want enforcement “officers” hiding in bushes, watching for drivers to be out of sight to slap a ticket on before the poor sap comes back 30 seconds later with change for the meter? Or clamping ambulances and hearses with impunity? They won’t “play by the rules”, it’d be like the wild west.

I’ve seen council enforcement playing like this.

The OP’s being charged somewhere between fifty and eighty-five quid for overstaying on a free car park, and you want to give these bastards more power?

The car park is not free, there is no charge. It’s a very big difference. It’s not a free public space, somebody put that car park there. FFS can people not read the rules? Play by them, if you can’t enforce the penalty then why bother playing by the rules. Don’t put local councils up as the best of the best some of those are utter crap at what they do. The number of times in here people come up with I broke the rules and they are now fining me what should I do comes up it’s a joke.

Do you really want enforcement “officers” hiding in bushes, watching for drivers to be out of sight to slap a ticket on before the poor sap comes back 30 seconds later with change for the meter? Or clamping ambulances and hearses with impunity? They won’t “play by the rules”, it’d be like the wild west.

My favourite was the council’s meals on wheels service being clamped as they delivered a meal despite being in a marked meals on wheels van and actually witnessed parking and taking meals in to a home. They wouldn’t release until the ‘fine’ was paid, meaning no-one else got a hot meal that day.

I think it’d be reasonable to pay something appropriate to the actual time overstayed and issues caused to the shop. Perhaps a pound, maybe as much as three pounds.

bruneep – Member

Currently having sport with parking eye after I parked in Forestry commission Scotland forest car park.

Different rules in Scotland apparently. (fwiw I got a parkingeye ticket at glentress, because I’m basically incompetent and hadn’t sorted out my trailfairies pass. I figured it’d be easy to beat the rap if it did go to court so for science I ignored it, lo and behold, never a peep from them.)

FFS can people not read the rules? Play by them, if you can’t enforce the penalty then why bother playing by the rules

A statement that could apply equally to the parking companies. They have to follow contract law the same as the rest of us. Parliament in its wisdom hasn’t legislated for the enforcement of penalty-esque charges in private car parks, and perhaps there is a good reason for that.

Of course someone put the car park there, normally to tempt shoppers to visit a particular location. The foreseeable trade-off of providing a ‘free’ car park in a busy location ( that is not barrier controlled) is that not everyone who parks there will either visit the store or spend money once there. Contracting out this problem to parking firms, who will end up harrassing many actual customers as well as piss-takers, is a poor substitute for putting in another system.

Vigilante? It’s not that hard? You stayed longer than you paid for. There is a fine pay up. Appealing because you (a) you were wrong, (b) you know you were wrong but decided that you would ignore the penalty? Really!

No. No no no.

There is not a fine. Why are you still struggling with this? Private companies cannot issue fines, it is illegal. We’re not appealing because we’re trying to “dodge a fine,” we’re appealing because the overstay charge is disproportionate to their losses and therefore unlawful.

Why can’t they fine you the same as a council? You commit the same misdemeanour don’t you? It’s exactly the same thing.

Superficially perhaps, but the reasoning is different. Councils enforce parking restrictions based on things like double-yellow lines or zig-zags outside Schools; places where parking there isn’t just a case of dodging 50p in a meter but rather is actually dangerous.

If you can’t see the difference between parking somewhere which might conceivably block access for the emergency services, and a supermarket car park, there’s little point in discussing this any further.

It had also been the local council that enforced the overstays on the high street etc. where I lived. But honestly what is the problem play by the rules or pay.

why should a private company not be able to protect its investment and to impose suitable penalties on those that break the terms of use?

Parking eye (in this instance) have no investment at all. They are not landowners so have no right to levy invoices (not fines) in respect to breach of contract.

You can only recover from a breach of contract what you would have lost, genuine pre-estimate of loss.. in a free carpark this is nil.

It’s not a free public space, somebody put that car park there. FFS can people not read the rules? Play by them, if you can’t enforce the penalty then why bother playing by the rules.

Err, no. The landowner is entitled to seek recompense for any loss they have suffered. Which is not what they are doing.

OP: we ignored Parking Eye (last year) and they went away after several threatening letters. YMMV of course.

Err, no. The landowner is entitled to seek recompense for any loss they have suffered. Which is not what they are doing.

They have engaged somebody (an agent) to do this for them. Continue with this and you will get barriers on all car parks and a fee to enter and leave. Plus side you won’t get a fine but you will pay to park. Like Websites, news & TV people think they can get something for nothing. If I have a parking space outside my business on my land why can’t I get somebody to manage it for me?

They have engaged somebody (an agent) to do this for them.

No they haven’t.

But honestly what is the problem play by the rules or pay.

You park on my car park. I’ve a sign up saying “free parking for up to an hour. Penalty charge for overstaying, £10,000,000.” You think, ‘well, I’m only going to be ten minutes” and park up. Perhaps you don’t even read the sign properly and gloss over the small print. Something happens; you slip and fall maybe, or bump into an old friend and lose track of time. You get back to the car after 61 minutes to find a ticket on your car. Where’s my ten mil? Pay up, it’s only fair.

You wouldn’t, would you. It’s utterly ridiculous. Yet the only difference here is the sums involved. I wonder where they get their ‘charge’ figures from? I’ll bet one of my lesser-used internal organs that it’s very meticulously calculated in order to generate maximum revenue without scaring most people into thinking “I can’t” or “no chance.”

And this whole “prompt payment” bonus thing is a scam in itself. What reason have they got for almost halving the fee if you pay in x days? Could it be to hamper you from seeking proper advice and put pressure on you to sort it quickly rather than stopping and thinking. Sure, that’s totally the behaviour or a legitimate company, one who I’d like to give more powers to.

mikewsmith – Member
Continue with this and you will get barriers on all car parks and a fee to enter and leave.

Why not? I have no problem with that. i.e. you cannot enter the car park if you have not paid as the barriers will not open to let you in. Simple. Then people will decide if they will go elsewhere.

What’s the problem with barriers?

🙄

Nothing at all, but people want to be able to park how they want and use loopholes to avoid the rules than actually play fair.

Continue with this and you will get barriers on all car parks

Good.

Plus side you won’t get a fine but you will pay to park.

Private companies issuing fines is still illegal. Have you got your browser set to write-only or something?

As for paying to park, that depends on the park’s policies, surely. They could still operate a park that’s free for an amount of time, and charge for staying beyond that. Supermarkets like free car parks, it encourages shoppers.

If I have a parking space outside my business on my land why can’t I get somebody to manage it for me?

Dunno. Why can’t you?

Nothing at all, but people want to be able to park how they want and use loopholes to avoid the rules than actually play fair.

Again, no. There are no “rules” other than compensating the landowner for their loss.

people want to be able to park how they want and use loopholes to avoid the rules than actually play fair.

I’d hazard that many people want to park within the “rules” and not have their pants pulled down to the tune of £85 for making a simple mistake. I’m sure we’d all be more than happy to ‘play fair’, that’s the crux of this entire discussion.

Not at all Cougar but the system is actually now biased against the private sector, the local councils are not exactly competent and will fine you about the same, semantics mean it’s read as something different.
If I was to get somebody to manage the space any management would have no teeth according to the advice in here, any penalty is harsh and nasty so do what the f you like then appeal it. Sorry but the number of people who can’t read the rules and then expect to get off takes the pee.

Not half as much as the “rules “take the pee

As no one is arguing for a parking free for all [on private land without penalty] you seem to be defeating a point no one is making.

the fines are outrageous and should be illegal

Where they fair or warranted or appropriate most folk would moan, grumble, get annoyed, pay then park better next time.

You can only recover from a breach of contract what you would have lost, genuine pre-estimate of loss

The way it works (normally) is that you need to have actually suffered a loss.

There are two main ways that damages can be calculated…by the parties agreeing a figure at the time the contract is entered into (liquidated damages)…or in a court when a party sues for breach (the party suffering the loss would need to demonstrate their loss).

LDs are basically a way of saying “right, let’s agree right now, before we go any further, that if you breach the terms of this contract you’ll pay me £x, which is the loss I’ll have suffered. OK? Saves us having to go to court and all that nonsense”

In my area (infrastructure deals), liquidated damages are essential, since it not only allows you to manage the extent of your potential liabilities under a contract (which can run into hundreds of millions) but also because it means in the event of breach you can just pay or be paid and move on. You don’t want a billion quid construction project held up because you’re waiting on a time slot at the commercial court so that some judge can put a figure on something that you could have worked out between you months ago.

A lot of work goes into calculating LDs…your losses have to be mitigated and you need to make sure they represent a genuine pre estimate of loss, otherwise you risk them being deemed unenforceable.

For the parking guys…it’s slightly different I think. They know how much of a PITA it would be to show actual loss and how unpredictable the court would be. So it’s a (marginally) more predictable route to try to demonstrate that you’d pre agreed some LDs with the “customer” by sticking up a some t&cs which contained a provision for LDs. Best case scenario, court says pay up. Worst case scenario, court says they’re unenforceable. I think the agents managing these claims are just playing a numbers/volume of claims game.

I reckon this can be argued both ways, depending on a combination of the level of LDs and the judge you get on the day. ie it’s a hard one to call in terms of your likelihood of success on the day.

If it was me I’d let them issue proceedings and contend it. If you don’t have time or energy to do that then the £85 may well be the better option…which is exactly what these guys hope for.

what like park within the lines and leave on time JY?
(the same would get you screwed by the council)

No mike what they charge you for not doing- like you needed to ask?-
So its that type of “debate”

Goes and parks car elsewhere with better T and C

Sorry but the number of people who can’t read the rules and then expect to get off takes the pee.

The “rules” you keep referring to don’t exist.

Not at all Cougar but the system is actually now biased against the private sector, the local councils are not exactly competent and will fine you about the same, semantics mean it’s read as something different.

I expect the local councils ‘competence’ will depend entirely on where you live. But if they’re fining inappropriately then that needs addressing and regulating, rather than using it as an excuse to justify the same behaviour in private companies.

If I was to get somebody to manage the space any management would have no teeth according to the advice in here, any penalty is harsh and nasty so do what the f you like then appeal it. Sorry but the number of people who can’t read the rules and then expect to get off takes the pee.

Two things.

1) That’s not what we, or the law, are saying. If you want to manage your private space, go right ahead. But there are “rules” you must obey in doing so. Any overstay charge you levy must be commensurate with your incurred loss. So if you charged £5 for an hour’s parking and said that exceeding this limit would incur an additional £10 charge, that’s perhaps a little on the high side but sounds fairly reasonable to me.

But then the question becomes, why do you need a penalty charge at all? Why not just charge your parking per hour?

2) You can’t just make up “rules” and demand people follow them. Rules aren’t laws. Where’s my ten mil?