I really hope that Mo can genuinely unravel himself from this toxic mess.

Any insight from STW? How complicit were the Nike Oregon project folks?

SmAoLfAaZrAaRh

Say it ain’t so, Mo.

The trouble is he’s already been caught fibbing, so it doesn’t look good.

As Nixon said “It’s the lie that gets you”.

There have always been suspicions about MO ( his speed increased a lot in a short time) and to me this makes it worse – why did he continue working with Salazar?

why did he continue working with Salazar?

IMHO – Because he was getting results, and because there was never enough there to convince him* that Salazar was dirty

* When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs.

Pretty damning quotes from the Beeb…

“Asked specifically and multiple times whether he had an L-carnitine injection before the London Marathon, Farah repeatedly denied it.

He was asked: “If someone said that you were taking L-carnitine injections, are they not telling the truth?”

Farah said: “Definitely not telling the truth, 100%. I’ve never taken L-carnitine injections at all.”

He is then asked: “Are you sure that Alberto Salazar hasn’t recommended that you take L-carnitine injections?”

Farah responds: “No, I’ve never taken L-carnitine injections.”

He is asked again: “You’re absolutely sure that you didn’t have a doctor put a butterfly needle… into your arm… and inject L-carnitine a few days before the London marathon?”

Farah says: “No. No chance.”

We have learned that minutes after the interview, Farah then met Fudge, who had been interviewed by Usada the day before.

Farah then rushed back in as the investigators were packing up. He changed his account.

Farah tells Usada: “So I just wanted to come clear, sorry guys, and I did take it at the time and I thought I didn’t…”

He is asked: “So you received L-carnitine… before the London marathon?”

Farah answers: “Yeah.”

He adds: “There was a lot of talk before… and Alberto’s always thinking about ‘What’s the best thing?’ ‘What’s the best thing?'”

The Usada investigator says “… a few days before the race… with… Alberto present and your doctor and Barry Fudge and you’re telling us all about that now but you didn’t remember any of that when I… kept asking you about this?”

Farah responds: “It all comes back for me, but at the time I didn’t remember.”

Barry Fudge.

This has been a sorry affair from the start. But hearing that Mo went to get advice from some bloke called Barry Fudge has made it all worthwhile for me.  Is he a cousin of the chuckle brothers?

Oh man, those quotes above sound bad. I fear this is all heading one way from now on.

Too many statements resonated from the Armstrong days sadly. I’d love to be wrong but:

“It is not against [Wada rules] rules to take [L-carnitine] as a supplement within the right quantities”

“The fact some people might hold views as to whether this is within the ‘spirit’ of the sport is irrelevant”

“Mr Farah… is one of the most tested athletes in the UK, if not the world, and has been required to fill in numerous doping forms. He is a human being and not robot”

“Interviews are not memory tests”

He’s definitely at least skirted the boundaries of what’s legal and what isn’t, wouldn’t surprise if he’s crossed that line a a couple of times. A bit like Team Sky – not blatantly cheating but doing things they’d rather not become public knowledge.

Barry Fudge.

This has been a sorry affair from the start. But hearing that Mo went to get advice from some bloke called Barry Fudge has made it all worthwhile for me. Is he a cousin of the chuckle brothers?

This.

But he’s a supporting character from Toast.

He’s definitely at least skirted the boundaries of what’s legal and what isn’t, wouldn’t surprise if he’s crossed that line a a couple of times. A bit like Team Sky

My thoughts exactly, perhaps no smoking gun but there’ll always be a slight tarnish to that halo now, as with Wiggo.

I wonder how “we” and the UK/World media would be responding to this if the story had been about a Russian, Chinese or other country with a state driven media and sport system.

I think if this was the case then the narrative would have a slightly different dimension??

Apart from his biological passport showing dodgy results, his faulty door bell, his choice of training partners (Jama Aden), his missed drug tests, the use of two coaches who have drug convictions, his change from being a good runner to world beater. I’m sure he’s clean. Well, as clean as Lance Armstrong.

Any insight from STW? How complicit were the Nike Oregon project folks?

You can expect everything from ‘Mo had no idea what Salazar was doing’ through to ‘It’s deja Lance Armstrong vue all over again’ [edit: bingo!] as people embroider the stuff we do know for sure with their own personal bias.

Maybe we should be asking what sort of world it is we’ve built where people can make millions of pounds from running round in circles faster than everyone else. Be paid six figure sums per week for kicking a ball through some wooden posts. Or get a small fortune for riding a bike. To the point where some of them are, maybe understandably, tempted to cheat / bend the rules / devote their entire existence to running round in circles etc.

I read a quote from Deontay Wilder – a man paid millions to punch and be punched by someone else on TV – where he says: “If I say I’m willing to kill a man in the ring, I’m willing to abide by that same principle as a warrior – to die in the ring.”

Apart from thinking that’s quite a stupid thing to say, you have to ask how we’ve managed to elevate sport to a point where some participants genuinely appear to believe that it is a matter of life and death.

If only there were more important things in the world, like you know, its continued existence, nuclear weapons, massive poverty and hunger etc.

I wonder how “we” and the UK/World media would be responding to this if the story had been about a Russian, Chinese or other country with a state driven media and sport system.

I think if this was the case then the narrative would have a slightly different dimension??

I think you’re looking for a double standard which has not been exhibited in this thread TBH.

Or maybe it’s just me that’s not fussed if Mo goes down in flames? I’ve had a gut feeling since his initial reaction to Salazar getting in bother. Us cycling fans are probably a step ahead of the general population in reading athletes’ reactions to doping stories.

But it’s all shades of grey, edge-of-legality stuff innit – while Russian doping was blatant and industrial by comparison.

It doesn’t look like good does it? But then Mo always has the odd question, and the fact that he’s looking very average since leaving Salazar’s team doesn’t help.
Whether he’s “properly doping”, and taking shed loads of EPO and testosterone, or just pushing the boundaries a bit it all just feels very dodgy.

BWD +1 but then I don’t watch any sport so it’s all a bit weird to me that it has become such an industry. I guess the competitors are really just part of an entertainment industry partly fuelled by media companies and partly by nationalism.

Chakaping – a good point in that cyclists are maybe a wee bit more accepting of the possibility given experiences.

A charitable explanation for Mo is that he is actually just a bit thick. You’ve got to wonder if we can believe anything he says is true. Was he even aware of what was really being given to him?

Q: how much carnitine has Mo been accused of using?

I dont think he is looking average I just dont think he is as well suited to running Marathons as some of his peers, regardless of his training. We do view him as average against 2:02 performers when he is only running 2:05 and that is why he hinted he may return to the track where he was peerless and managed to intimidate the (often faster) competition then destroy them with a withering last 600m.
The issue with Carnitine seems to be the delivery method rather than the product itself. Being given intravenously is illegal.

There have always been suspicions about MO ( his speed increased a lot in a short time) and to me this makes it worse – why did he continue working with Salazar?

He was multiple English schools champion as a young teenager and I recall watching him around that time when we raced at the National relays in Birmingham and he was clearly a huge talent then. He progressed over a number of years taking British and European titles and records before becoming a major world player. I dont think there was anything particularly unusual in that.

Assuming he thought Salazar was innocent somebody at the top of their game would not want to change coaches when they have so much invested. If it turns out that he (they) are guilty then that would explain it however we dont know yet. Either could explain it.

Agree with surfer’s comments. He became world class/developed his incredible kick/sprint finish after beginning to work with Salazar which Mo has attributed to increasing workload and training better.

Sad days that we have seen so many cheats now that we assume the worst.

Including myself in this, when I saw just how much time was walloped off the 5k record last week in Monaco.

#nikefly shoes

He’s definitely at least skirted the boundaries of what’s legal and what isn’t, wouldn’t surprise if he’s crossed that line a a couple of times. A bit like Team Sky – not blatantly cheating but doing things they’d rather not become public knowledge.

Thing is, I’m sure a lot of people would do just that.

There was something on one of those “you are what you eat” type programs about a spinach supplement that boosted muscle mass and strength significantly by mimicking testosterone. Dunno if it’s coincidence but when I googled it myProtein (and others) had sold out.

Obviously sky/BC are probably getting their information from the scientific journals, not several years later when the BBC mentions it in a documentary, but I’d almost be disappointed if they weren’t using every legal supplement under the sun.

The issue with Carnitine seems to be the delivery method rather than the product itself. Being given intravenously is illegal.

Aren’t you allowed to inject but only within certain amounts?

As far as I can tell Carnitine isn’t prohibited itself as long as you don’t go over the limits. It seems Mo was injected with 13.5ml & the limit is 50ml.

If true why the fuss? Yes, it’s grey but he wouldn’t be the first. To add to that the benefits of Carnitine seem unclear.

“ Farah and his team were summoned by the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport select committee to attend a Combatting Doping in Sport inquiry after the Sunday Times first revealed the L-carnitine infusion, where Dr Chakraverty insisted the volume administered to Farah was 13.5ml, well short of the 50ml legal limit. There is no evidence that any World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules were broken.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/mo-farah-bbc-panorama-repeatedly-denied-injection-l-carnitine-alberto-salazar-a9354711.html

“ The results show that 3 or 4 g of L-carnitine taken before physical exercise prolonged exhaustion.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24263659

But….

“ Finally, the results indicate that there is uncertainty in regards to how L-carnitine helps athletic performance. There are only three studies in the literature showing beneficial effects of L-carnitine on performance of athletes. On the contrary, three other studies have shown no effect of L-carnitine on performance.”

http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.sports.20180805.04.html

Colour me unconvinced – either way!

Yeah, this is the moral maze – why should athletes be taking “any” such drugs at all? Painkillers I can just about understand. Anything aimed at performance/recovery should just be banned outright.

Its a minefield and lots of legally available “drugs” can enhance performance, or at least help to stave off exhaustion. Caffeine is a good example. illegal in large quantities

I’m sure I’ve got gels with that stuff in it but I’ve no idea what it’s supposed to do.

*toddles off to look for a syringe*

A charitable explanation for Mo is that he is actually just a bit thick.

Ive heard this as well.

I’m as sceptical as salad_dodger. It all seems very familiar for those of us that followed the Armstrong saga “he is one of the most tested athletes in the UK, if not the world, and has been required to fill in numerous doping forms”. No comment on his missed tests however.

He progressed over a number of years taking British and European titles and records before becoming a major world player. I dont think there was anything particularly unusual in that.

He failed to make the Olympic finals and his best World Championship finish was 6th – to then become untouchable once he started working with a tainted coach is cause for concern in my opinion.

Q: how much carnitine has Mo been accused of using?

Farah’s doctor appears to have the same record keeping standards as Team Sky, so we don’t know. We are told it was within legal amounts. But we were also told by Mo himself that he has definitely never taken it.

This is not the first time Mo has proven to be a liar when it comes to links to anti doping such as his relationship with Jama Aden and the amount of TUEs he’s had.

He failed to make the Olympic finals and his best World Championship finish was 6th – to then become untouchable once he started working with a tainted coach is cause for concern in my opinion.

Rubbish. You are refering to 2008 but he had already won European XC Gold and was the second fasted UK 5000m runner of all time (Behind Moorcroft) He had a great pedigree long before he went to the states.
He had ran 7:34 indoors for 3k which is a staggering indoor time, in 2010 he broke Moorcrofts outdoor European 5k record which had been a WR when Moorcroft set it. He had also ran 46:25 for 10 miles and in 2010 won the European 5000m and 10000m double and was the first since Emil Zatopek had done it 50yrs earlier. He had also won a European XC Silver behind an Ethiopian athlete who had changed nationalities to Spanish

Only after that did he move to Oregon to train with Salazar. Within a couple of months he had broken the British indoor 5000m record, took Gold in the Euro indoor 3000m champs and ran 60:23 for a half marathon! He clearly took that form with him and it could not possibly have been as a result of anything he did in the first few weeks of being in the US.

I am no real fan of his but he was on a consistent upward trajectory prior to 2011 so the improvement is not suspicious.

BWD +1 but then I don’t watch any sport so it’s all a bit weird to me that it has become such an industry. I guess the competitors are really just part of an entertainment industry partly fuelled by media companies and partly by nationalism.

But for a lot of us, sport provides the main entertainment that we watch/follow, so why not? I’d far rather my money and time go into bike racing/rugby/whatever instead of whatever vacuous box set is being pushed this week.

why should athletes be taking “any” such drugs at all? Painkillers I can just about understand. Anything aimed at performance/recovery should just be banned outright.

Because most of what’s being discussed is “supplements” and refined from natural sources, not synthesized in a lab.

Taking the example of spinach, banning ecdysterone might make legitimate sense, but do you also ban foods containing all sorts of sterols that have similar effects. Even one of the touted benefits of eating eggs is that cholesterol boosts testosterone levels.

Surfer, be off with you and your pertinent facts, there’s a witch hunt to be had! 😂😂😂

There is a parallel here to the Sky case. In both cases an official from a public body UK athletics or British cycling was involved in managing supplements for individual professional athletes. All the fees these bodies get from your weekend warriors and instead of spending money on the grassroots it goes towards funding posts to fluff up a few pros. Fuming.

Too many statements resonated from the Armstrong days sadly

Did anybody clock Salazar’s Livestrong T-shirt ?

Salazar’s Livestrong T-shirt ?

Sigh, yup 😔

Please name me a clean athlete??

Even Tyson Fury has been caught with some gear. The pressure of being the best is too much to stay clean when everyone else is on something!

for a lot of us, sport provides the main entertainment that we watch/follow, so why not

Yeah, not disagreeing with that. It’s just that lots of folk don’t see it that way. Similarly I can’t get too excited about HSBC pulling sponsorship for British  Cycling. I’d much rather any money went to promote cycling generally than to a tiny number of elite athletes.

cycling generally than to a tiny number of elite athletes.

It does trickle down to the grassroots- my son goes to disability cycle sessions at the local cyclopark. There are 3 coaches and plenty of adaptive bikes to use. It’s subsidised by HSBC so we’d be sad to see them discontinue.

Just going back a bit, reading through this as I’ve just watched the prog on iplayer; I’m not sure if Mo is just a little bit slow on the uptake or confused as to where or with whom his loyalties lie.

More importantly however, I’m shocked to learn that the world seemingly ran dry of spinach supplement tablets, or powder or whatever other minimised, homeopathic, hydrated form it is prepared. Plenty of the stuff at the greengrocers, large supermarkets, for cold pressing or cooking. 😉