Epicyclo – for many South of the Border there is no question that Scotland is more than capable of being successfully Independent. We just don’t want our currency/economy tied to such an untried risk. If you want to paint it as sneering anti-Scottishness that’s up to you but its far from the reality.

AS has just been on tv. As for his comment that having a Scottish currency would add £500m in costs to UK business I don’t see how that makes sense. Any nceeased costs for import/export would be shared equally by both Scottish and UK business. An independent Scotland would initially have a currency pegged to Sterling (most likely) so costs would be minimal and in the short/medium term Scotland would have the euro (assuming it wants to join the EU) and uk business deals with that each and every day. If this currency makes Scotland less attractive as a trading partner then business wil move elsewhere, I do t see this as a major issue,

Some quite entertaining tweets quoted in the Guardian.

I’m sure you stated you wanted independence because you were concerned the UK would leave the EU and the effect it would have on your business.
Then it wasn’t financial it was a matter of self determination.
Then it was making your country a better place for your kids.

Um. Westminster determines whether we’re in the EU, it decides where we’re governed, and it decides what the country will be like for my kid. What Westminster does not do is decide what bits of culture are British.

I am perfectly consistent.

No 3 provides benefits 1 & 2.

That’s not by any means a given.

Jambalaya I dont have any more detail both the graph and the text above it which is a quote(I should have made that clear) are from the businessfor scotland website. They in turn took the graph from a uk government source.
It seems fair to me that Scotland should negotiate with the rUK about a financial settlement for loss of access to embassies etc maybe on per centage of population basis.

I ll get my flame resistant suit. 🙂

Okay, my personal position (just for clarity, ‘cos it seems to be confusing):

I think the people of a country should be governed by a government elected by the people of that country. Scotland is, despite 300 years as part of a union, a separate country with different values and traditions, though a lot is shared with the other nations of the British Isles, with the other nations of Europe, and with the other English-speaking and Commonwealth countries of the World.

To that end, I think independence for Scotland make sense. We would be governed by a government we elect, and which would therefore be more representative. My vote would matter, and my daughter would not grow up as I have, in a country ruled by politicians with little or no support in her country.

There are side issues – whether Scotland would be rich or poor (my personal feeling is we’ll do alright, probably about the same standard of living as every other Northern European country), whether we’ll still be British culturally (I think we will – there’s so much shared cultural history there, and a shared sense of humour), things like that.

Ben: the problem with your argument is where do you stop in this quest for atomisation? Why take Scotland as being the largest entity that requires self governance? Why not Edinburgh alone, or Shetland alone? All your arguments work equally well for them.

I just don’t buy this cultural values point – what material cultural difference is there between someone from Melrose and someone from Berwick? In fact, what material difference is there between someone from Glasgow and someone from Manchester?

You do understand that in a democracy you sometimes don’t get the party you voted for? We’ve had labour for many years, who the Scottish voted en masse for. Now we have the Tories who are (temporarily) less popular. This might change over the course of the next parliament!

muddydwarf – Member
Epicyclo – for many South of the Border there is no question that Scotland is more than capable of being successfully Independent. We just don’t want our currency/economy tied to such an untried risk. If you want to paint it as sneering anti-Scottishness that’s up to you but its far from the reality.

I’m commenting about the general tone of the debate rather than a currency union.

I don’t want to see a currency union, so I’m happy to see it rejected. I could see why it may have benefited both sides, but I think a clean break is politically better for both parties.

Ben, you are trying to debate with somebody who alludes to Scots being racist and tries to foist the Braveheart stereotype on anybody who doesn’t embrace the union. Oh, and having claimed to have lived here starts a thread wondering why we don’t like being referred to as Jocks…Just thought you should know that for balance before you take the troll seriously.

We just don’t want our currency

So the Pound is just yours then…in that case so are the debts 😉

I just don’t buy this cultural values point – what material cultural difference is there between someone from Melrose and someone from Berwick? In fact, what material difference is there between someone from Glasgow and someone from Manchester?

Scotland is already a separate country. Its just been in a political union with England and Wales since 1707. Some in Scotland want this union to end and Scotland to govern itself again.

In fact, what material difference is there between someone from Glasgow and someone from Manchester?

Deep frying, mainly.

@gordihmor – I’ll dig around a bit on that website later and I like the flamesuit feferemce !

On negotiations I don’t really see Scotland have a very strong position, whether that be with regard to embassies or the EU in general. It’s a small country, 5m people. What’s there to bargain with. Trying to make an argume t youre entitled to a portion if embassies etc is just going to be laughed off. As for being governed by someone else that’s exactly the way the EU is going, more government in the centre so you’re swapping Westminster for Brussels.

(my personal feeling is we’ll do alright, probably about the same standard of living as every other Northern European country)

Agreed.

We would be governed by a government we elect, and which would therefore be more representative.

You currently live in the oldest democracy in the World. You did elect the Government. Until recently you had a Labour Government led by Scotsmen for a significant length of time.

Why do you think that shower in Holyrood will be any better than the shower we have in Westminster?

After independence, you will create a microcosm of the UK. An uneven spread of wealth and population, with distinct cultural identities within it and resulting problems these cause.

bainbrge – Member
…I just don’t buy this cultural values point – what material cultural difference is there between someone from Melrose and someone from Berwick? In fact, what material difference is there between someone from Glasgow and someone from Manchester?

About the same as between someone living in London and someone in Paris.

Ben, you are trying to debate with somebody who alludes to Scots being racist and tries to foist the Braveheart stereotype on anybody who doesn’t embrace the union.

Not racist but there is a long history of intolerance. You still have major sectarian divides.
Going further back, Culloden was more a civil war than a rebellion against the English.

Oh, and having claimed to have lived here starts a thread wondering why we don’t like being referred to as Jocks.

Why would I make it up?

@Epicyclo: you mean everything and nothing? Or are you saying there is a fundamental Scottish identity that needs independence in order to be fulfilled?

Jambalaya We all paid tax to the UK government. Further to that if we take our per centage of the debt,and there is a strong moral argument that we should, then we take our share of any assets. A currency may or may not be an asset but buildings etc have an easily established monetary value.

I think you need to get out more if you think there are major cultural differences between Scotland and the rest of mainland Britain. I’ve spent many years living in Wales, Scotland and England and at times it’s really hard to tell the difference. Go visit France or Spain or Germany and it is clear there is a major cultural difference between them and us.

God this whole thing is getting depressing and we have another 6 months of this cr*p left.

In fact, what material difference is there between someone from Glasgow and someone from Manchester?
About the same as between someone living in London and someone in Paris.

Which is not a lot.

Glasgow and Manchester
Same currency, language, climate, passports, TV and Radio broadcasters,tax rates, I could go on….

Similar sized cities.

The major difference is Manchester has a much more diverse population than Glasgow.

winston_dog – Member
…Why do you think that shower in Holyrood will be any better than the shower we have in Westminster?…

1. Because there will be no unelected upper house with the ability to over-rule the elected house. It’s not democracy when you have overlords, just the illusion of it.

2. The current setup is biased towards the needs of SE England. Rightly so, because that’s where the bulk of the population is.

I can’t think of any reason to not want to live in a democracy.

The currentnew setup is biased towards the needs of SE England. the Central Belt Rightly so, because that’s where the bulk of the population is.

FTFY.

So you will be looking at Independence for the Highlands and Islands in a few years?

Why do you think that shower in Holyrood will be any better than the shower we have in Westminster?

Because they don’t have to cater to the voters in the SE of England for one? Despite there still being discrepancies between differing parts of Scotland (central belt vs Aberdeen vs highlands/islands/lowlands) I reckon they’ll do a better job and the parliament should be more representative.

I’d also argue that in my experience the Scots are a more leftward leaning bunch, sure a Scottish conservative party might rise after independence, it might not, but again it will be representative of how the Scottish as a whole voted, not determined by a few key swing constituencies in England.

dragon – Member
I think you need to get out more if you think there are major cultural differences between Scotland and the rest of mainland Britain.

Ruais

I just googled ‘Ruais’. I’m confused

Ruais

What? A French Filipino Beauty Queen?

Where does she stand on the Yes/No question?

I just googled ‘Ruais’. I’m confused

Me too. Eh?

Maybe it’s a cultural reference that Scotland wants to win the next Miss World contest but that it isn’t televised by the BBC but will be by SBC? 🙂

Tha thu ceart gu leor Epiccyclo ach chan eil canan nan gaidheal air STW

He said nonsense.

Maybe it’s a cultural reference that Scotland wants to win the next Miss World contest but that it isn’t televised by the BBC but will be by SBC?

I assume in a grand statement of cultural heritage the Scottish representative will be eschewing the usual fake tan in favour of second degree sunburn for the swimsuit round?

Tha thu ceart gu leor Epiccyclo ach chan eil canan nan gaidheal air STW

He said nonsense.

Not according to an online Gaelic dictionary he didn’t.

I assume the other sentence is highlighting the ignorance on STW?

Isn’t there only about 1% of the Scots actually speak Gaelic?

Right 🙂

Ruais, t. m. (Ir. id.) A clown ; a sluggish, stupid fellow ; a noisy fellow. N. pl. ruaisean. Ruaisealachd, &. f. Clownishness ; disorderliness. Ruaiseil, a. (ruais-amhuil …

Minor regional differences there maybe int eh UK but not big cultural ones. From where I’m sitting right now I can see 6 Scots, 2 Malaysians, 1 English, 1 Slovakian and 1 Hungarian. It’s pretty easy to tell the difference between non-UK and UK folks cultures.

I reckon they’ll do a better job and the parliament should be more representative.

Well, they certainly seem to have gone a long way in demonstrating a well founded basis for that faith of yours, what with Holyrood and then the Trams, the M74 extension…

I am more confused now.

Did he call him a clown or say he was talking nonsense?

Interesting conversation but time for me to waste time on other threads, perhaps even some on mountain bikes.

Well, they certainly seem to have gone a long way in demonstrating a well founded basis for that faith of yours, what with Holyrood and then the Trams, the M74 extension…

Listing governmental and council led contract cockups isn’t a great way to win the argument. I’m sure it wouldn’t take me long to list the project failures of Westminster.

Listing governmental and council led contract cockups isn’t a great way to win the argument.

That isn’t the point of highlighting the failures.

It is a way of highlighting that you are simply replacing like with like at great expense.

It is a way of highlighting that you are simply replacing like with like at great expense.

It doesnt prove anything, your right. No one can know for sure what future politicians will be like, but I’d still rather that the ones making the decisions were elected fully by Scottish voters.

It’s sounding like the same old ‘well it wont be any better, so you better just just vote for the status quo’ type arguments now.

There are also two of the English posters on here,one is claiming that Scots are culturally different and another claiming they aren’t…. 😀