1) you are renting the assets or 2) you are still paying for them. When you stop paying the rent/loan the assets return to the owner

Who’s the owner? If something is bought by the taxpayer, it belongs to the taxpayer – 9% of that is Scottish.

Were it gets messy is that 9% of a fighter jet is no use to anyone. So things will have to be divided up a more sensible way.

So things will have to be divided up a more sensible way.

I’d agree with that – thing is you seem to want to pick and choose which assets get divided

you want to keep more than 9% of the oil (asset), then you need to accept a quid pro quo deal against other assets to the same value that we keep in full

Oh Gods, not this again 😉

How else do you divide up a physical asset apart from geographically? There’s some huge military training areas up north – do you want 91% of those too?

there is no precedent in history, before, ever, for a natural resource in the territory of one country to belong to another country in this way. It’s total nonsense, which is why the UK doesn’t own a share of Canadian shale oil reserves or Australian uranium.

On the negotiation, is my understanding correct of this scenario. Scotland vote Yes in 2014. Nothing much happens as the UK is focused on a general election in 2015.

Do the Scots get to vote in a 2015 General Election ?

I can imagine the 2015 election would have as one issue a manifesto commitment from each of the main parties as to how they would deal with the Scotlish negotiations. I could see a fairly hardline stance being very popular. So Scotland ends up trying to negotiate with a very obstinate and unyielding new UK government. We could even has a situation where the UK is seeking to exit the EU but an independent Scotland deciding it wants to remain inside.

All seems a massive mess to me.

How else do you divide up a physical asset apart from geographically?

No problem at all – just the same as dividing up an fighter jet in many ways isn’t it, you don’t – you put the value into the ‘pot’ and divide it out in fair proportions

Thing is, that to keep more than 9% of the oil, once again you’ve got to accept that means you’re going to get substantially less of everything else – if the oil is worth £X billion, then you lose out on £Xbillion of other assets.

Sooner or later you get to the point where you realise you’ve got all the oil, but nothing else at all.

You might want to have a look at Haiti and France for an example of ongoing debt after independence 😉

bencooper – Member
There are a few red lines. Trident is going, the only question is how quickly.

In the event of a yes vote, is this definite, or is it pending the result of the Scottish election i.e. if the SNP don’t get in it might not actually happen?

@ninfan – small poor countries cannot borrow money, having low debt/gdp isn’t necessarily a sign of strength.

I think about as many Scots think we are going to get a share of UK assets(there I said it) that are based in England,as (this thread apart)English folk do of Scottish assets including oil.

or perhaps carved out of an independent Scotland altogether, like Gibralter ? Latter unlikely but possible

Colonialism is alive and well it would seem.

That’s the point I think you’ll find the UK “stick absolutely” to the EA

I assume they will as well but the law is not on their side- ie its the UK and not iS at all.
Both sides have some nuclear options they can threaten but I doubt either will.

I am basing this on the premise that the politicians will be more reasonable than the average STW poster so it may well be flawed…actually perhaps not given the musings today.

the UK’s contribution to the Ireland bail out was fairly small and driven largely by political considerations and the fact the RBS in particular had huge exposure to the country.

£20 ish billion is not fairly small. I am no sure how this has negated my point – could you explain?

I think being seen to be tough on Scotland, including refusing to accept the “democratic will of Scotland” might actually be a very big vote winner in the UK.

I think you are confusing something you would support [ ignoring democracy apparently] with something the population would support.

I could see a fairly hardline stance being very popular….with me

FTFY
Neither sides supporters are going to want them to lie on their belly and have it tickled whilst they give it all away but I suspect most will want fair rather than “hardline”.
Has the hardline stance of Israel and Palestine helped the people there?

No problem at all – just the same as dividing up an fighter jet in many ways isn’t it, you don’t – you put the value into the ‘pot’ and divide it out in fair proportions

Not sure that’s how it works overall is it? Take the oil, it’s worth x amount per year, how do you calculate it’s worth to take it out of the pot. How many years worth to you take out?

Scotland will get the oil, physical assets that are in Scotland and a share of everything else, for example 9%ish of the remaining banking shares etc. We’re obviously not going to demand a share of an airforce base in England, but we’d expect, for example, the Regiment of Scotland to remain (or some of it).

UK government analysis
So it seems a maritime boundary is likely to be created according to the principles of international law or agreement between the 2 parties. The rUK doesnt seem to have a case for any greater than the current civil jurisdiction boundary at most

A similar comparison would be that Scotland should get a share of Crossrail, since some of it is being paid for by our taxes. But I don’t think anyone expects that to happen.

Oh noes, not Scotland as a colony again 😉

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/scotland-given-500m-sop-for-crossrail-6616253.html

Have we done the No Borders cinema adverts yet? This is one of them:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW6u0jnoFs[/video]

😀

133 pages and we are still going around in circles.

Yes Scotland can use the pound after independence. It can’t force the rUK to be the lender of last resort though. After independence Scotland stops paying tax to the UK so it no longer has the right to use the Bank of England as lender of last resort.
If you get independence good luck and all the best. More likely is that we will still be together and then a devo-max thread will start and we will all be at it again just on a slightly different topic.

aracer, that’s a great example of Scotland getting the shit end of the stick. We’re supposed to be grateful for £500m? Proportionally that’s about 1/3d of the southern subsidy of crossrail.

Junkyard – lazarus

Ben AS has said nukes are not up for negotiations though i dont believe that either – Leasing land to rUK so it is not in Scotland is my guess there.

See, that’s what I’d be happiest with- rUK can pay for it, they can have the moral burden, which is the real benefit of getting rid of the things. And in return we’ll gain something pretty big in the negotiations, and retain the economic benefits of the base. It’s a big win, that. And the rUK will be happy about not having to spend a fortune rebasing the things. I think the SNP have backed themselves into a pretty tight corner on that one and tbh I can applaud the stance but there are other good outcomes.

I can understand that, but for quite a few people (including me) it’s a red line – the WMDs have to go from the Clyde.

And really, it’s not a workable option for the rUK either. Faslane and Coulport would be incredibly vulnerable to the actions of any future Scottish government – there’s no power station, no accommodation, no airfield, no guaranteed road or sea routes. If, say the Greens got into Holyrood, they could shut down Faslane in a day.

That’s not the kind of risk any military planner would want to take.

You’re supposed to be grateful for anything we give you laddie 😈

After independence Scotland stops paying tax to the UK so it no longer has the right to use the Bank of England as lender of last resort.

The tax and lender of last resort questions are totally separate. You could have either one without the other.

That’s not the kind of risk any military planner would want to take.

Ben: you’ve got to let it go. Of all the things going on, the MoD being worried its pipsqueak northern neighbour breaching a treaty on a military base is not one. The UK is just not that scared of the mouse however much you think it could roar.

Ben: Of all the things going on, the MoD being worried its pipsqueak northern neighbour breaching a treaty on a military base is not one. The UK is just not that scared of the mouse however much you think it could roar. and besides,it may take a while for America to tell us what to do

Ftfy. What will happen to them seems to be quite a concern for the rUK,despite anything you say to the contrary. Might even be fair to say the rUK is “scared” over the uncertainty. Unlike Ben,I will let you keep them here for a while…but it won’t be cheap.

The saddest thing in my opinion are comments like “YOU can keep them here”.
The whole debate brings out an “us” and “them”, “we” and “you” to describe people I feel are from the same country.

I look upon Scottish nationalism with the same degree of pity I imagine civilized America looks upon the pro gun lobby there. Having been lucky enough to grow up in a decent democracy though, I understand if fellow Scots vote for it I will have to accept it and move on.

I can understand that – half my family is from the North of England, I have relatives all over. There is a good left-wing argument for the Union that people in a Glasgow have as much or more in common with people in Liverpool or Manchester than they do with people in Edinburgh.

However, we’re stuck with the border where it is. And we’re stuck with Westminster the way it is. Scottish independence is the only way we’ll get democratic representation, and maybe the shock of losing Scotland might kick Westminster into doing something about the way other areas of the UK are governed.

Ben, one of the cornerstones of the yes campaign seems to be that people are lording it up as soon as you go across the border. I also think that Westminster is not beyond repair. I still feel my vote counts there. I feel it is massively misrepresented in nationalist circles.

Ben, one of the cornerstones of the yes campaign seems to be that people are lording it up as soon as you go across the border.

Really? I pay pretty close attention to the wider Yes campaign and I can’t think of anything that gives that impression. It’s the No campaign who give that impression by making out that Scotland would be poor and lonely without the UK.

Ironic that it’s the Better Together campaign that talks down Scotland.

“Ironic that it is the Better Together camp that talks down Scotland”. We could go round in circles on this. If you want an example of talking down a country, watch the yes campaign official video regarding the UK.

athgray – Member
…I also think that Westminster is not beyond repair. I still feel my vote counts there. I feel it is massively misrepresented in nationalist circles.

If Westminster had been “repaired” I very much doubt we would have had this problem.

As for your vote counting, which house? Are you a Lord?

After all it is the members of the HoL who are telling us it doesn’t matter which way the referendum goes, they can still deny us independence.

I think the SNP have backed themselves into a pretty tight corner on that one

I agree as GO over currency
Its a fine line between setting out negotiation strategies and backing yourself into a corner
Its hard to see how just one side can back down and not be seen to be the loser. if both back down then we have two hypocrites – is this any better ? If neither back down we are not really having negotiations.

The whole debate brings out an “us” and “them”, “we” and “you” to describe people I feel are from the same country.

I think that is inevitable when one of them has separate laws and parliaments and football teams and education etc. Its also not helped by them giving us the govt they choose that we dont want.
they have never been the same countries it has always been a union.

Comparing it to the gun lobby is pretty grass/unhelpful IMHO and unlikely to make a yes supporter respect you more. Would you be happy if I compared no to Putin and Crimea/Ukraine?

FWIW I think all nationalism sucks but I dont mind federalism

There’s an important distinction between nationalism and independence.

But it suits atgrays assertations to conflate the two.

epicyclo. We will not be denied independence if we vote for it. I would not disagree with that, but remember you would take independence even if Scots reject it. I am happy to have a more positive view of the UK than you JY. I would not be offended at a comparison with No/Putin, I would however strongly disagree, and say you have it the wrong way round. Don’t get me wrong, I think Scotland is great, and feel lucky to have such magnificent scenerey close to where I live and work. I don’t feel particularly proud of Scotland and don’t feel a sense of ownership that it is my country. No amount of Yes BS makes the Highlands any less spectacular.

No amount of Yes BS makes the Highlands any less spectacular.

I’m still not sure where you’re seeing all this Yes stuff I’m not seeing 😉

The Highlands will still be there whatever way the vote goes – and people from all over the UK and wider afield will still be very welcome to visit or come live here*. Scottish independence isn’t about being Scottish, it’s about being independent – living in a country ruled by people we vote for.

*Unless the UK leaves the EU, then it might get a bit trickier.

Just in case the negotiations go wrong, we’re already making preparations:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-27429939

😀

Ben we didn’t do very well in that raid 😆
This is a report from a recent public meeting in Edinburgh
Broughton spurtle

I like how the minister is still politely asking for his bell back, almost 400 years later 😀

That was interesting, and kind-of matches my feeling – it’s going to be very close.

So why are bitter together not willing to stress the benefits and instead concentrate on telling us how crap life will be? The pro unioners mostly debated in a measured,positive way that puts the BT to shame. Shows how poisonous BT and their tactics actually are to the no vote.

Better Together’s problem is that they don’t actually have many on-the-ground people. They’re trying to make up for it with flying visits from Westminster politicians and astroturfing campaigns like Vote No Borders, but that’s not really the same thing.

As opposed to Yes Scotland duckman. They keep telling us how crap life is!

Why does the SNP favour the pound, out of curiosity ?

If you are going to use another country’s currency, why not the US dollar ? I think Zimbabwe uses the US dollar ? So there is precedent.

The Aussie dollar seems a good bet these days too.

Why does the SNP favour the pound, out of curiosity ?

Because an independent Fiscal Commission of experts, including several Nobel prize winners, looked in depth at the issue and produced a very comprehensive report saying that a currency union was the best option for both Scotland and the rUK.

They didn’t just make it up down the pub.

From Yes website

the UK is Scotland’s principal trading partner, whilst on the other hand Scotland is the UK’s second largest trading partner with exports to Scotland greater than to Brazil, South Africa, Russia, India, China and Japan put together;companies operate in Scotland and rUK with complex cross-border supply chains;there is a high degree of labour mobility across these islands, helped by transport links, culture and language;all the necessary requirements for an optimal currency area are present, including similar levels of productivity and evidence of a high degree of convergence in terms of economic cycles;and a currency agremeent means that Scotland would continue to make a significant positive contribution to the balance of payments of the currency union area.