molgrips – Have a read ->

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation.

I struggle with long sentences properly (because I have read it before) but from the diagrams it looks like a massively longwinded explanation of what’s fairly obvious to me as a physics graduate. Plus I’m not sure it’s correct. He suggests that the difference in vectors between the axle and the caliper cause a turning moment about the suspension pivot, but to me it woudl suggest a turning moment about a point in between the two – resulting in a flex of the swingarm.

If you remove the shock, spin the wheel and apply the brake the swingarm moves up, but that’s transfer of angular momentum which is different. And not significant because it’s small compared to the other forces at work.

And even if it is right, he is demonstrating brake SQUAT in a single pivot, not brake JACK – which he acknowledges.

It is fairly easy to understand that if the brake torque/axle reaction force doesn’t exhibit a compressive or extensive force/moment on the suspension AT ALL, then under any braking the suspension will extend due to weight shifting forwards. For this reason, it may be useful to have some amount of pro-squat (tendency to compress).

This is basically what I said up there ^^^

Another important point to note is that true “neutrality” under any acceleration (positive [pedalling] or negative [braking]) is not necessarily an optimum setup – certain reaction forces under braking/pedalling can help stabilise the bike as well as offer greater comfort and traction

This is also bang on, and relevant to the bike under discussion here 🙂

The first one I had looked like two different people had welded the front triangle together (the swingarm was fine), look at it from one side and the welds were fine. Look at it from the other and it looked like who-ever had done it was on their very first day in the job. It cracked on the “bad” side where the axle for the pivot bearings passes through the down-tube. Returned and (after almost two months and alot of chasing up) was replaced under warranty. The second one cracked in the same place. The third replacement was blatently misaligned, the back wheel was about 10mm further right than the front!

My LBS got my money back and I’ve ridden hardtails ever since. I won’t be buying another Orange. A shame because my first proper mountain bike, a 1993 clockwork LX is still going now and for many years was my only and very much loved bike.

I think they had a dodgy patch a while back in terms of build. A LBS I once had refused to sell them for that reason.

Mine does not seem to have those issues.

To be fair the first two rode OK before they broke and there are many, many satisfied customers out there so maybe I just had bad luck.

Three times.

With the warranty dept., the QC dept., the framebuilding dept………

The RRP of a 5 has been a long standing joke quite frankly, when you consider that the likes of Specialized, Trek and even Cannondale (whilst they still sold the Prophet) can match or better the performance for a whole heap less cash.

So having never ridden one you have come to the conclusion that they are not worth the money, but a mass produced bike made in Taiwan by a robot is?

To me people on here fall in three categories

1) People who can’t afford one so they talk them down to make themselves feel like they have bought the right bike because it was cheaper, better spec’ed, has more pivots blah blah blah

2) People who have tried them and genuinely didn’t get on with them for what ever reason, geometry, size etc. Usually these people still say they are a good bike and worth the money.

3) People who don’t have a clue what they are talking about, their mates brothers girlfriends dad had a go on one and said it was crap.

What people seem to forget is weight and spec are fine, but bikes are made to be ridden. Being light and well spec’ed doesn’t make a bike fun, and thats the reason you ride isn’t it, to have FUN!? Which is what the Five is.

What’s an Orange Five?

So having never ridden one you have come to the conclusion that they are not worth the money, but a mass produced bike made in Taiwan by a robot is?

Correct!

And the problem with that is what exactly?

Its almost irrelevant how it performs if it is so expensive as to exclude it from many a new bike shopping list. The old assertion that “handmade in England = Better” is total crap too. In fact, I’d argue otherwise knowing what the quality of mass produced frames by the likes of Giant, Specialized and Trek are like.

The Orange 5 is a good bike, no doubt, but it’s overpriced, over hyped and heavy compared to most rivals. I also know probably as many people who love theirs, feel the same way about a 5 they used to own, but were underwhelmed by.

I reckon this thread probably goes someway to promoting the Five – could you see a similar thread about a Trance getting to 4 pages long!?

I’ve just got my first five – think it’s ace fun – much more so than a heckler I’ve owned (angles) – less faff than the Blur 4X I had (bearings) – less quick down than the Nomad or Last Herb AM I had obviously – very lively in comparison, I can’t just plough through a rock garden any more, but that’s OK – skipping about is just as fun – it’s all about riding a bike after all – if it takes longer, then to my mind that’s a good thing – more time having fun on a bike! And it gets up the hills better than any of my previous bikes (probably a lot to do with weight being the correct side of 30lbs)

Probably too much bike for most of the UK, but out here in the Alps it’s great – we’ll see how I feel once I stop climbing for my downs and the lifts open. But then I may just get a cane creek shock and fit my Lyrics on the front.

Versatile? Yep. But then you could say that about a lot of bikes around the 140mm mark.

For me the simplicity is great. So there’s a bit of brake jack or whatever XYZ path square edge blah blah. But I can’t see this bike being out of action for any length of time because of bearing issues. The 4X was a pain in the arse – the Nomad was much improved in that department.

Ultimately it’s a free country. Buy one if you like it, don’t if you don’t.

Anyhow – there’s my two penneth.

The current Orange 5, is worth its 2009 price. Subsequant inferior specification, coupled with a 40% + price hike, I feel, is a complete joke.

As my comments above, I ran a blinged to the max 09 SE version for 2 years and it was a great bike. If I had spent £4.4k on it, I would have been a disapointed.

In summary, and digesting 3 pages of comments, the Orange 5 is simply a good bike.

Hmm.. anyone wanna buy a 2007 5 frame? 🙂

I don’t know why folks foam at the mouth at the Five SE price tag. £4400 is £3000 more than the frame price.

Take a look at the Scott Scale. The Premium is £5000, £3600 more than the frame alone price. Then move along to the 899, which is £8000; for the same frame but a different build kit!

I await the threads that will rant about value for that brand.

Its almost irrelevant how it performs if it is so expensive as to exclude it from many a new bike shopping list. The old assertion that “handmade in England = Better” is total crap too. In fact, I’d argue otherwise knowing what the quality of mass produced frames by the likes of Giant, Specialized and Trek are like

You obviously fall into category one.

Deciding a bike isn’t worth the money without riding one is a bit strange.

You are always going to pay a premium for anything handmade because whether you like it or not, you are paying for someones skills and time.

If you can’t afford it, it doesn’t make it not worth the money, it just means you need a better job, or to buy a cheaper bike.

I can’t afford an Aston Martin, it doesn’t mean they’re not worth the money.

You make absolutely no sense

What bit didn’t you understand?

I don’t really get the OTT price thing. I got my 08 Five Pro new in spring 08 for about £2600, which was ok. The drivetrain wore out and got upgraded to XT, the Mono Mini’s are still good, as are the Pro 2 Hubs and wtb speed-disc wheels. The bars and stem and post got changed to Easton after a yr – most of the changes I made are normal kind of stuff to do to any bike over a bit of time riding it. Fork and shock work fine and are still ‘current’, if not bolt though

Current 5 Pro is £2850 with comparable spec to what came with my 08 one (although now xt rather than slx, which some would argue is as good) and costs 10% more than 3 yrs ago – sounds ok to me

I can’t afford an Aston Martin, it doesn’t mean they’re not worth the money

They are many other reasons why they might not be worth the money though.

flow you missed the cat that i fall into.
i dont want one. it might be an awesome bike but i will never know because i just dont want one.

If you can’t afford it, it doesn’t make it not worth the money, it just means you need a better job, or to buy a cheaper bike.
I can’t afford an Aston Martin, it doesn’t mean they’re not worth the money.

Heard of the words “want”, “need” and “justify”?

I’ve not ridden a 5 but I know it’s not worth twice as much as a Giant, Trek or Specialized. So because of this very point, it ceases to be about need or justification, and it becomes all about want.

I want an Aston Martin too. Is a DBS “worth” £180k? Is it 10 times better than the average family hatchback? Of course it’s not, but if you’ve got the cash and you want it, you’ll buy it. And thats fair enough. I can at least see where some of the extra money is going (if not all of it) with an Aston Martin though. With an Orange, I can’t. The only reason I can see that they are more expensive than the competition is their handbuilt in small volumes nature. Which would be fine if that meant it was a better quality product because of it, even if only marginally so. As it is, even all the mags have started erring towards newer (cheaper) designs and the once great 5 has fallen by the wayside a little.

It’s obviously a good bike, but then there are lots of other good bikes out there too, some great even. And most cost less than a 5…

The point about getting a better job… Totally wasted. I have the bikes I want, I dont lust over a 5 at all. In fact, there ate quite frankly many many bikes I’d buy before a 5 given a lottery win etc.

So do I still fit in your category number 1, given that I neither want, nor care for the 5, and I could have bought one at any stage if I had wanted to do so? 😉

Methinks someone has bought into the hype!

I tested and bought a second hand orange 5 really enjoy riding it but if I had to buy again I think I would look else where because of the price.

Also every bikes not perfect so its just what you like when you try it

If the discussion is about suspension design, then the single pivot has the advantages discussed, and also the downsides. An amazing mind blowing improvement can be made by using cane creek DB, at which point it will match the best (certainly if the physics add up as it seems to) suspension system currently available the DW link.
I have a dw Turner Five spot and a Five, and only when the Spot went to the 2011 angles could it match the Five despite its wonderous suspension.

I’ve just had a look on the Orange Web Site and they may ride well, but every bike they make is truly hideous.

For that reason I’m out.

Me thinks someone has bought into the hype!

Ahh thats where you’re wrong. I bought into the hype of the Trek EX. Full Floater, ABP, Evo link, DRCV shock and was quite happy with it, then I demoed a Five and made it look crap, so much so I bought one. I hadn’t really even read anything about the Five before I demoed it either, so marketing etc didn’t even come into it. I wan’t even looking to buy a new bike, I just went to Scotland to stay with relatives!

BTW Trek and Specialized are made by Giant 🙄

Easy one buy a Heckler lol, made by Giant too BTW

catvet, you’re 5 is as good as your DW 5 spot with a CCDB?
That is interesting. How does that badboy climb?
The 5 is very nearly perfect for me, the suspension has put me off (I have tried one and it felt like it had half the travel of some 140 bikes I’ve been on) but if the CCDB makes that much of a difference I’d be interested.

backander
I borrowed a CCDB off Orange, tuned it to what i felt was correct with a little help from Steve Jones at Dirt mag, and it was staggering compared with the RP23. adds some weight, but with a titanium spring would be tolerable. Without the help I suspect it would have taken me ages to set it up correctly.
My feelings are there are 2 basic alternatives to rear suspension, the olds’ cool SP with a good shock versus a DW link suspension (IMHO the best). Majority of the others are actuated SPs or DW/Vpp lookalikes, so if multilink is your bag then go for the best ie DW, if not a basic solid SP with a good shock.
dont expect that helps too much!

Thanks catvet. I’m still stumped!
I simply cannot find what I want!

I think we have almost found the answer to the world’s problems in this thread.

Ahh thats where you’re wrong. I bought into the hype of the Trek EX. Full Floater, ABP, Evo link, DRCV shock and was quite happy with it, then I demoed a Five and made it look crap, so much so I bought one.

This highlights more than anything the subjective view of bike ownership/testing… You obviously get on better with your 5 for whatever reason than you did the Trek. As I’m sure would many others. But then again, many people would find 140mm too much travel, and 120mm a sweet spot, and the Trek EX is known to be one of the best out there, so much so it won What MTB bike of the year award last time round. The Orange was several places from the top it should be noted. Bikes are a very subjective ownership prospect!

For instance, my own full sus bike I personally rate as the best there is, and know a handful of people on this forum would agree with me. Doesn’t mean that it is the best though, just my subjective view… Besides, most people would say it’s even uglier (and more expensive) than a 5, which it’s not, so would dismiss it instantly…

£3,000 for the Pro and it has SLX crank and weighs a complete tonne, they have to be prehaps the worst spec bike 3K can buy, and who in gods name would pay 4.5K for a single pivot pile of shite ugly looking Orange!!!! Not me thats for sure. Yeh it may have XTR but alot of 3.5K nicer looking bikes have XTR. Im not suprised they dont sell many bikes, they will definatly never ever get my money. If i was going to sling 4.5K at a bike id get something that looked the dogs bollox like the Ibis Mojo SL WTF, or for around 3K build a SLX kitted Ibis Mojo.

Who would have thought that the humble Five would induce such vitriol?
Just to get this out the way – yes, I own an Orange Five
But before I did; me and my mate took my boutique-y Nicolai Helius and a bog standard demo Orange Five out to test them on the same local trail sections, back to back (used the wall descent and all the sections on whites at Afan, plus stuff in the FoD if your interested).
Whilst I liked my Nicolai – the numbers said that Five was by far the quicker bike, up, along or downhill.
Just cause brand a, b or c has 4 bar or VPP doesn’t make them quick.

“some bikes have great suspension but pathetic angles” to not quote MBR.

I’m not saying the Five is the bike, its just a simple, reliable and most of all a quick bike.
Would have to agree with earlier comment, stock RP23 isn’t great – PUSH upgrade improves things significantly.
Just my tuppence worth.

Been wondering about a STOY for the Five – just wondering on %age of folks who run coil shocks on their Five?

Backhander
I would try a DW Spot, the 2011 version has the same HA, same seat angle and toptube (that is large Spot and 18″ Five) so you can really make a direct comparison of the suspension systems, not the geometry.
If you want then to go carbon super light the ibis SLR or if you want even more adjustability the Ibis HD 160/140. my LBS has just sold 5 of the latter totally blinged up at around 5k, look amazing. very tempted by the SLR

Having ridden / owned several verions of the 5 and also other well known full sus bikes (Specialized Enduro, SC Blur 4X, Marin, etc), I agree that the 5 is not the “Best” suspension platform out there, or the best performing bike in some situations.

However, I keep returning to it and the only reason I can give is they are simply the most all round fun bike to ride, in all sorts of conditions and situations. They are a brilliant bit of simple design that works. I would buy another like a shot if I didn’t have a Patriot 66 instead. Maybe I will anyway… 🙂

I still like my Sub5 even running 40mm too much travel up front it’s a great bike considering it’s 8 years old or more, I replaced the bearings the other day, they’d been creaky for about 6 months without really effecting the suspension performance. This might have been the first time they’d been done.

The Reason that the 5 will continue to be popular is that they simply refuse to go wrong, get one in the right size and the right colour and it will be there for you for as long as your dare ride an alu frame.

Other factors include a light enough weight to pedal up almost everything, enough travel to handle most situations, UK friendly mud clearance and a very generous number of bikes given to the right people.

I’ll never be embarrassed to turn up on a five, I’ll never have to consider if it’s too wet, too dusty, to flat or too steep. It’s like my hardtail only comfortable, It’s like my DH bike, only it’s light. If I can do it, I can do it on a 5. If I can’t do it the 5 will take the crash.

It’s the only bike I’d own if I was being honest, the rest of the garage is just because I signed up to a forum.

Mountainman123, what bike do you ride?

Flow have a guess……………
Mk2 Ellsworth Epiphany 150mm and a 2010 Ibis Mojo SL 120mm and a 456 Carbon 160mm 2011

Apollo? 😉

Answer above, this is a forum and people are asking for opinions and thats mine, i suppose alot of people on here will hate Ellsworth / Ibis / and the 456C, but i love em… Of course i do otherwise i wouldnt of bought them.
In the past iv owned some turd bikes too. I suppose everyone who rides a 5 will know what it feels like to own a turd bike as i did with the Marin and Ragley.

Really intelligent posts mate, don’t you have school in the morning?