Oceangate Sub Missing

ULB’s fitted to aircraft are rated to 6000m….

In height or depth? Not even comparable if you talking height

Won’t someone think of the poo…

They have a toilet

Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep

So that means when its getting to the end , they all need to fart – a lot

ULB =  Underwater Locator Beacon.

Sounds like they could have fitted kit. But didn’t.

Misquoting the cost of operating the boat perhaps? I’d not be surprised if you wanted to charter a boat that size if the price wasn’t £100k/day?

That heap of junk will be nowhere near £100k a day. It’s a 60 year old buoy tender. You would get a half decent construction vessel for that price.

there are no holes in the hull

There are. The hull has titanium end pieces. This is where they have the penetrations and the hatch. There are no penetrations in the composite sections.

In height or depth? Not even comparable if you talking height

Underwater: https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/underwater-locator-beacon-ulb

Yes but these need power that would have to come from an external battery that would, again, be crushed well before it reaches the target depth.

not necessarily – i have successfully hydro tested and deployed batteries for RFID and pressure sensing equipment – albe it Batteries that cost as much as a car mind. Deeper than the subs rated for. – small vessels are not so bad to get to depth (4/6 inches in diameter)- but big vessels for humans with windows – No thanks

ULB =  Underwater Locator Beacon.

Sounds like they could have fitted kit. But didn’t.

Reads like an aircraft ULB is activated by water contact. Perhaps they’d need a ULB that transmits full time during the dive on a different frequency that is only for the Titan, not interfering with other systems, if that were possible/allowed.

there is plenty of mature, stable, commercially available technology that could of (should of?) been fitted to make this vessel safer.

why and who made the decisions not too, I’m guessing will be a matter for the lawyers.

So, is there technology to transmit a distress signal already existing or that could have be adapted?

Would extra weight/kit have meant one less paying passenger or pushed the price up too far? Hence not using it.

Submersibles have gone deeper than this. Were they similarly equipped?

there is plenty of mature, stable, commercially available technology that could of (should of?) been fitted to make this vessel safer.

why and who made the decisions not too, I’m guessing will be a matter for the lawyers.

I’m guessing that it’s a lot to do with keeping weight as low as possible, which then allows the sub to operate from smaller, simpler ships. This keeps the operating cost as low as possible.

I can’t see that the composite hull build cost would be less than more traditional materials but it avoids the need for very expensive buoyancy.

I think they were trying to do it as cheap and as simple as possible.

This article gives a good insight into their mindset. They are innovative pioneers who know better than the rest.

https://oceangate.com/news-and-media/blog/2019-0221-why-titan-is-not-classed.html

Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep

Unfortunately there is a significant amount of evidence that carbon dioxide poisoning does not involve peacefully drifting off into oblivion, instead being painful and triggering a stress response on a biological level. If that’s how they go they will almost certainly know that it’s happening.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1258/0023677053739747

Submersibles have gone deeper than this. Were they similarly equipped?

A quick google seems to suggest that most submersibles with similar (or better) operating depths aren’t built on this sort of shoestring budget. They’re either military/government funded or James Camerons toy. (Or don’t have people in them, so effectively disposable).

I’m not sure why people are struggling with this…whilst there are a very few commercially built submersibles which are capable of descending to the depths we are talk about, they are extremely expensive to build and operate safely. So rather than go down this route, a business man and inventor with a plan has conceived and  built a backyard special on a budget much smaller than actually needed. Then through his sales pitch and personality he has pursueded those with more money than sense to buy tickets.
A cursory examination of the design and a few conversations with those in the industry would have made its shortcomings obvious enough to anyone with the ware with all to pay for a ticket let alone two. Even if I was brave or stupid enough to take on those odds because of the rewards (or bragging rights) of seeing the Titanic for real, there is absolutely no excuse for taking a 19 year old along who probably had no idea of the risk or even possibly a choice in going, knowing the dominance and certainty of a successful businessman in his chosen decisions.

The pilot and other scientific guy knew the risks, the business man should have worked them out and I feel very very sorry for the young lad who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

@tpbiker

@squirrelking

“The people that have been mentioned several times already just in this thread?”

“I suspect he was referring to the efforts of the navy, coast guard and other private organizations…and yes I agree it’s pretty distasteful”

Correct – I’m not talking about this thread, but the efforts from navy, coastguards etc but also more specifically the massive press coverage.

Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep

Other way around. Lack of oxygen causes hypoxia, which leads to a euphoric state and then unconsciousness. CO2 poisoning is an exceptionally unpleasant way to go.

@whatgoesup that’s fair, I’m absolutely with you there.

Unfortunately there is a significant amount of evidence that carbon dioxide poisoning does not involve peacefully drifting off into oblivion

It’s not lack of oxygen that causes the panicky ‘must breathe’ reflex – try holding your breath as long as possible, it’s the build up of CO2 that isn’t getting exhaled and the build up in your blood that causes it. If the CO2 is slowly building up I would imagine it’s really not nice.

As others have said, low oxygen without the CO2 build up causes the blissful ignorance effect – as they say on aeroplanes, fit your mask before helping others because even in the time taken to put your kid’s mask on, you might then become all giggly and incapable. Put yours on and who cares if they start to become incapacitated, as long as you can then get their mask on in 2-3 minutes they will recover as quick as they went giggly.

Portillo did a TV program on the death penalty, where he was effectively executed with nitrogen. That will displace the oxygen in the air, but you can still breathe out the CO2 and it doesn’t reach that level of panic before you become unconscious and eventually die. Sadly (! 😉 ) they then brought him back but it would be very effective and humane (as humane as state sanctioned murder of its citizens can be)  One of the arguments against seemed to be whether witnesses seeing their child’s killer depart the world in a euphoric state of bliss was appropriate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7183957.stm

Back to the sub. If I was in such a situation, I think having a smallish cylinder of pure nitrogen or helium or whatever as a suicide ‘if all else fails press here’ would be a relief.

The banging thats been heard.  Do you think its from the sub?

Last year David Pogue, from US TV network CBS, joined an OceanGate expedition to the Titanic and was told the submersible had seven safety systems to help it return to the surface.

Triple weights: three lead pipes that can be dropped using hydraulics to gain buoyancy
Roll weights: if the hydraulic systems fail those inside the sub can tilt the sub by moving to each side of it releasing weights held in place on each side by gravity
Ballast bags: motors can be used to release bags full of metal shot hanging beneath the sub
Fusible links: bonds that disintegrate after 16 hours in seawater to drop the ballast bags if the electrics and hydraulics fail
Thrusters: to push it to the surface
Sub’s legs: the pilot can jettison the sub’s legs as dead weight
Airbag: the crew can inflate an airbag to provide buoyancy

Seems it does have a lot of the features being discussed

The banging thats been heard.  Do you think its from the sub?

If it’s every 30 mins and has a rhythm or pattern (expect it would) it must be? Either that or a newly discovered species, the Atlantic Drum ‘n’ Bass Shark. Or something else entirely, that we’d prefer to stay down there..

Presumably if they get to the surface they would be able to use a satellite phone and handheld GPS given that they’re inside a carbon tube (not metal)?

Just appeared on the BBC.

A submarine search and rescue expert in Australia, Frank Owen, tells the BBC his “confidence went up by an order of magnitude” when he heard reports of banging being detected by floating sound detectors.

“There’s a couple of reasons for that,” he explains. “Firstly, on board this craft is a retired French navy diver. He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half hour you bang like hell for three minutes.”

He says the sound signal being picked by a buoy close to the surface also suggests that the sub itself could be near or at the surface.

“Below about 180 metres, the water temperature drops very rapidly,” he explained. “That creates a layer that the [sonar signal] bounces off. But if you’re in the same depth water it tends to go quite straight.”

Even if Titan is at the surface, it will be difficult to spot. Very little of the small, white vessel sits above the water.

But using an array of sound-detecting buoys to triangulate the signal could narrow down its position.

If these poor sods die because they can’t be spotted bobbing about on the surface then it really is a tragedy.

Where is Muskman?
Normally he’d be all over this.

The banging thats been heard.  Do you think its from the sub?

I recon the musicians on the actual Titanic have long stopped playing their music. So unless it’s Nessie on her holidays…

Where is Muskman?
Normally he’d be all over this.

I know, he’s even got a wildly-unsuitable sub he could offer to send, then he could call the search organiser a ‘paedo’ when the offer is rebuffed.

Is it heated? Must be pretty cold down there – just wondering whether a potential noise would indicate it’s more likely to be at or near the surface?

This long thread on Twitter from John Scott Railton is essential reading – looks like everyone in the industry knew this was a bit of an overreach…….Worth reading to the end and some whistleblower testimony

What's happening at the #Titanic site will likely be a tragedy.@OceanGate's page on why they didn't seek certifications / classing for the Titan submersible & that design safety regulations are slow & constrain innovation… reads differently now.https://t.co/7PckY5VSjq pic.twitter.com/Sur0MHKr27

— John Scott-Railton (@jsrailton) June 20, 2023

If these poor sods die because they can’t be spotted bobbing about on the surface then it really is a tragedy.

if they are on the surface and can’t get out then that really is a lack of contingency planning from the company. Not sure if a satellite phone would work from inside the sub, but if not surely some kind of way to open it up from inside would be a bare minimum…even a drill and a saw would be better than nothing!

also, why on earth is it painted white. Surely to god someone would have done a risk assessment and realised if this eventuality occurred, painting it orange would be a far better option

the whole operation appears to be run by amateurs

“Reasonable” is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting in that mission statement.

It’s like a group of people have spent a night buying someone endless very expensive drinks in a bar  and then asked them for a lift home.

As obviously unwise things to do it’s right up there. This really doesn’t need hindsight does it.

, why on earth is it painted white.

White is more visible underwater.

If it’s on the surface surely a SAR aircraft with heat cameras could find it quite easily. They could cover quite a distance in a fairly short time.

Even if they could open the top [which doesn’t seem to the location of the access hatch] it might sink pretty quickly if it doesn’t have much freeboard (bit above the water) and there are any waves.

To the people drawing a parallel between the efforts being put into this ‘rescue’ vs the terribly sad refugee boat capsize – I don’t think it’s anything to do with the fact that the people stuck in this sub are rich, it’s just a common human trait that you can empathize more easily with one or two people than hundreds. Look at the Chilean miners, or the Thai cave rescue – people caught onto the fact that there is a limited time window to save people caught in a horrifying situation and that’s what people respond to. It’s not lack of empathy for the 500, nor action being taken solely for some ill advised billionaires. if it was research scientists down there I think the efforts would be the same.

The refugee boat capsize took the majority of the fatalities to the bottom of the sea, trapped inside the boat. They weren’t going to be rescued.

These people are possibly still alive.

If it’s on the surface surely a SAR aircraft with heat cameras could find it quite easily. They could cover quite a distance in a fairly short time.

Only if you know where the point the camera. The ocean is a big place and even high-def TI cameras still aren’t high definition at all compared to a TV camera

Stevet1 – I agree that it likely wouldn’t make any difference if they were research scientists (although most scientist are smart enough to know you can do deep sea research without going on a sun yourself!), but I think there’s something wrong in your analysis of why “we” get excited about some dramas more than others.  It “helps” if we have names and faces to relate to.  It “helps” if there is a deadline and some feeling of slight hope.  It “helps” if the drama/risk seems to be in a really difficult location.   But there is more money being spent on this attempted rescue than on many other rescues of sailors, mountaineers etc.  sometimes a story just seems to resonate with the media – I think that’s as much to do with it being different than the number of people involved.  If subs got lost every month this would be a footnote on the news.

Also helps if they ate white.

There’s the Titanic Factor in this too. If it had just disappeared in to some deep ocean trench then there may have been less interest.

The pilot and other scientific guy knew the risks,

I’m particularly surprised by Hamish Harding who had previously been down to the Challenger Deep (11000m) in DSV Limiting Factor which makes Titan look a very amateur affair.

Also helps if they ate white.

at least 40% of the people in the missing sub are not white.

Also helps if they ate white

well in this case two of them aren’t..