Oceangate Sub Missing

Think of it like a diesel engine – as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.

Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.

In the case of the sub the air would very briefly get very hot as it is swiftly heated by compression but would not itself then be able to go bang in the way a diesel engine does.

In similar situations oxygen very rapidly compressed to over 400 bar would realistically get to temperatures of 500C-1000C although the theoretical temperature of compression is several times higher.

In the case of the sub anything flammable could start to ignite in hot high pressure air, but would of course be quenched milliseconds later by the rapid inrush of cold water.

TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred

There has been quite a few over the years, however, I think all military which implode at much shallower depths.

I don’t think there have been any losses of the ultra deep submersibles?

TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred

USS Thresher would have imploded (it suffered a reactor shutdown and sank). Any ship or submarine that sinks in deep water with intact sealed compartments will implode.

I came across quoting James Cameron:

Here

“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”

I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.

Yeah that’s a very vague comment. The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren’t with the rest of the wreckage, and “the community” involves those doing the salvage. Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though that removes the “at least they never knew a thing about it” theory

Dropped weights some way from sub debris?

There’s been no deaths on commercial submersibles for 60 years until now… also according to Cameron I guess that doesn’t include military, I don’t know about research.

Cameron has access to _the_ best experts in the field, and probably knows those involved in the recovery so I’m inclined to give weight to any statement he makes.

“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”

I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.

There was tracking and comms.

If they had lost comms but the mother ship was still tracking them, then they would of known they were ascending.

Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?

I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.

because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.

Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.

Of course…. good point – Soz!

Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though

Yes – it is.

Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?

He did.

because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.

If they had positioning then why the large search area?

I don’t believe they were “managing an emergency” – surely if something goes wrong at that depth it’s an instantaneous conclusion. You can’t have “a bit of a leak”.

I would much rather think that they knew nothing about it TBH.

The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren’t with the rest of the wreckage

Many things do not drop straight down in water and can land some distance from where they started falling.

If they had positioning then why the large search area?

because despite all the evidence pointing to a subsea implosion at the last known position, until they got a asset on site capable of getting down to the seabed and providing visual confirmation, they were working on the possibility there were lives to save.

Another compare and contrast.

TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred

A fair few if you start looking from Thresher though as a by-product of something else occurring rather than imploding due to deliberately going deep and failing. I’d imagine there were also implosion during war time when subs were damaged enough to start going down uncontrollably.

Whilst is does look a bit like shit stirring I suspect that as he knew one of the passengers for 25 years, in reality he is just angry that something happened that didn’t need to. Cameron is obviously passionate about deep submersible work and is probably beating himself up that he didn’t do more to stop this bunch of cowboys. It’s a very small community and clearly this tragedy could have been avoided if more in that community had made a fuss – however like the CEO Stockton, there was probably a bit of them that was optimistic. Now the whole community is reeling.

I think everyone should read this article, it gives much more background information from people who were directly involved with the project.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen

It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?

Well, I’ve just finished reading through that article, and frankly it’s heartbreaking. The whole idea was seriously flawed, Stockton Rush was warned that it was dangerous, and that people would likely die, and his answer was to threaten with legal and financial consequences.

It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?

That’s the thing, reading through that article it shows Rush was so obsessed with the project that he built in workarounds, like having everything legally operating from the Bahamas, outside of US law, and nobody was a ‘passenger’.

Thanks, excellent article, very sad and so avoidable.

WTF?

OceanGate’s lawyer wrote, “The parties found themselves at an impasse—Mr. Lochridge was not, and specifically stated that he could not be made comfortable with OceanGate’s testing protocol, while Mr. Rush was unwilling to change the company’s plans.” The meeting ended in Lochridge’s firing.

Soon afterward, Rush asked OceanGate’s director of finance and administration whether she’d like to take over as chief submersible pilot. “It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting,” she told me. She added that several of the engineers were in their late teens and early twenties, and were at one point being paid fifteen dollars an hour. Without Lochridge around, “I could not work for Stockton,” she said. “I did not trust him.” As soon as she was able to line up a new job, she quit.

Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.

They may both be correct. ‘Remains’ in this case may refer to a thin veneer of human mince…

There was a case where someone went through a large gas turbine engine on static test (a suicide IIRC) and the “human remains” would have fitted in an icecream tub.

““With titanium, there’s a purpose to a pressure test that goes beyond just seeing whether it will survive,” John Ramsay, the designer of the Limiting Factor, explained. The metal gradually strengthens under repeated exposure to incredible stresses. With carbon fibre, however, pressure testing slowly breaks the hull, fibre by tiny fibre. “If you’re repeatedly nearing the threshold of the material, then there’s just no way of knowing how many cycles it will survive,” he said.”

Wanders out to look at three bikes in the garage with carbon forks and bars…….starts looking online for titanium replacements…

Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.

Exactly, that’s why I posted it up, it’s the first thing that I’ve read that seems to have real authority and authenticity to the content, the comments and quotes from people actually involved in what was going on behind the scenes need to be heard far more widely, I feel.
Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.

• Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.

Musk of the sea ?

It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?

Why, its in international waters BUT really who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can’t do “because it’s dangerous”.

People really need to learn to keep their noses out of telling other people what they can and can’t do based on what they decide.

You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.

“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”

I took it to mean that the sub had communicated with the mothership and was ascending – presumably because they’d heard concerning noises / had concerning readouts from their sensors. Then some time after that, comms, tracking etc was lost.

I imagine everyone from OceanGate is keeping their lips tightly shut, now that it’s clear the sub suffered a catastrophe. But at the time but it’s certainly plausible that Cameron heard on the grapevine things which have still not been officially released by OceanGate, such as the fact the sub was ascending urgently.

You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.

It’s a reasonable position that people should be free to pursue unwise things, even if you disagree completely it. So I’m not sure the ad hominems are necessary. Unless SteveXTC is just being contrary to troll you – in which case he played you beautifully.

Yeah course he has, yeah totally played me – just Like Stockton played the Dawoods.

I’ve actually moved my position on this. Earlier on in the thread (much earlier on) I suggested that overall everybody could make their own decisions but that I was angry the kid had been dragged into it. Now the more people like stevextc ramble on about individual choice without having any skin in the game or literally any idea about anything it shows clearly to me that there should be even more protection, even for billionaires who should know better – basically to shield them from the clearly ever increasing march of the self assured well funded idiot.

who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can’t do “because it’s dangerous”.

Society assumes such a right in some circumstances. Not much point in arguing with it, you are unlikely to persuade it to give up.

1) Stockton Whatsisface is a narcissistic lunatic who pursued an unwise and deeply irresponsible programme of exploration against all advice, and persuaded / lured / tricked people into taking trips with him.

2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.

It’s possible to hold those two views simultaneously, which I think is SteveXTC’s position. I’m not saying I agree with it – just that it’s a reasonable position to hold – depending on one’s position on the auth / lib spectrum. So no need for name-calling.

2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.

Informed and authoritative people (aka whistle blowers) were shut down by lawyers representing someone with cash / clout. Where does that feature in the ‘world police force’ belief system?

I thought it odd that the expert/guide would put his name to this.

Then that article references his late wife & comments that “I’ve had a good life/ what a place to go out/ it’ll be quick”

it’s almost like he had a death wish, and Rush used his name/ experience to persuade the passengers, sorry “mission specialists”, it’s all ok.

To me he bears some level of responsibility by adding a veneer of acceptability to the charade.

It smacks of the dodgy “flight share” operation Wingly where people circumnavigate commercial flight regulations and the circumstances of the footballer that was murdered in the channel.

without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.

One of the issues with this position is that those involved will certainly not turn down the involvement of the “world police/rescue force” should the need for search and rescue occur, indeed they will probably expect it.

The international search, and now attempted recovery operation for Titan, will have cost many millions. No one seriously believes that OceanGate will be paying the costs.

Nor had the 5 individuals been successfully rescued that they would have dug into their pockets and paid for their own rescue.

It is not simply about their rights as individuals.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/titan-submersible-search-reignites-debate-over-who-pays-to-rescue-wealthy-risktakers

But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.

Why are you lot still trying to play chess with a pigeon?

But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.

Agree, but is that fundamentally a different argument when it comes to polar expeditions, yachting on open oceans, high mountaineering, or the more dangerous aspects of, say, mountain biking? The scale of cost is perhaps different but the argument is the same?

I’m not arguing in favour of SteveXTC’s position by the way – I’m arguing that he’s allowed to hold that view without being called names.

There’s parallels here too with public health/’nanny state’ stuff on things like smoking, junk food, gambling etc. Adults should be allowed to make decisions that other people don’t think are a good idea, but it’s not a fully informed decision if you’ve got a massive company with a huge marketing budget pushing you one way and no one arguing the opposite.

You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.

I’m not sure the ad hominems are necessary.

Maybe not necessary but in this case quite entertaining imo, reminded me of the taunting french soldier in Monty Python’s Holy Grail.

“Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person.”

I was also hoping for “I don’t wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper”.

The behind the Bastards podcast have been going over Stockton and what they’ve christened his ‘Death sub’ it’s quite an entertaining way to hear about the whole debacle.

The guy was an utter cowboy, it was always going to end this way, Billionaire adventurers are kinda dickheads too (IMO), would the world scramble all those resources for some asylum seekers in dinghys?

That article Count posted earlier. Shit.

So many red flags along the way but the “disruptor” needs to disrupt even managing to fool himself that he has pulled wool over the eyes of physics itself.

As I’m sure its been alluded to, there are so many lessons to be learnt here in totally different areas in life. When people are demanding to get rid of red tape for a start. Like it’s always an inherently good goal. Best to check why that tape was put they’re in the first place!

I’m really hoping they got no warning signs the sub was in trouble before they were instantly killed… but it sound like they were even denied that tiny mercy that if the ballast was dumped.

I just can’t get over thinking about the dad and his son in those minutes or seconds… I really hope there was no warning. I suspect we’ll never know.