Oceangate Sub Missing

I think they were explorers as, it was at great risk, not many people have been there, and the craft they were in was classed as experimental rather than being a certified commercial vehicle. Certainly 2 of the people on board would say they were explorers

It doesnt sound like they made it all the way down before it imploded, but I assume far enough down as for the pressure to be enough to zap them instantly rather than giving them time to hammer frozen sausages in to the water leaks?

I think they were explorers as, it was at great risk, not many people have been there

The wreck of the Titanic was discovered nearly 40 years. I would describe them as sightseers. I’m not sure the fact the vessel they were in was unsafe makes much difference.

a good summary from james cameron:

‘OceanGate shouldn't have been doing what it was doing. I wish I had been more vocal about that.’ Director James Cameron said he wishes he had sounded the alarm earlier about the submersible Titan that imploded on an expedition to the Titanic wreckage https://t.co/3qGkrHnZZz pic.twitter.com/vBiblJHEBt

— Reuters (@Reuters) June 23, 2023

I think, given the teeny numbers of folks who’ve been to those sorts of depths, explorers is a fitting title. You wouldn’t call the astronauts of moon -missions post Apollo11 “sightseers” despite [in effect] doing pretty much the same thing as these folks were.

I don’t think ‘explorers’ is the right term, but it’s fine if visitors to the wreck want to self-identify this way. Google tells me the number of people who have gone there is numbered in the hundreds, so it has more in common with people going to the ISS than Apollo astronauts. Obviously every dive is still quite the adventure for those doing it.

The craft was classed as ‘experimental’ for legal and regulatory reasons, I suspect, and I’m not sure whether the passengers actually were fully informed about what that meant when they signed up.

Perhaps they were though, given how open the CEO was about his attitude to regulation.

From CNN, a few years back:

“There hasn’t been an injury in the commercial sub industry in over 35 years. It’s obscenely safe, because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn’t innovated or grown—because they have all these regulations,” Rush said in an interview that appeared in a June 2019 issue of Smithsonian Magazine.

And on a November 2022 “Unsung Science” podcast hosted by CBS correspondent David Pogue, Rush said exploration comes with innate risk.

“At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed,” he said. “Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”

I do wonder if they had announced on sunday that a implosion was detected shortly after losing comms, whether the same amount of resources would have been mobilised and the same media interest would have been generated.

your misreading what was announced – Who can listen to a sound and say ‘that’s definitely what an unconventionally constructed one of a kind sub sounds like when it implodes- in particular it’s definitely the implosion of the object we’re looking for right now and couldn’t  be anything else.’

what was said was a sound was detected – that sound could be positioned – debris was found and the nature debris and its location was consistent with what was heard. Working backwards they can say what they heard was the implosion. They couldn’t have concluded and announced that when they first detected the noise.

Imagine if they’d have called off the search on hearing reports of this sound, and then subsequent visitors to the Titanic found the capsule intact, or worse still, it was finally spotted bobbing on the surface. Obviously they strongly suspected the worst, but you need to confirm it, both for the families involved, and to aid any investigation.

It would have lessened the ‘boy down a well’ press scrum though.

flip that on its head.

the navy say – we heard a noise – its imploded.

Attempts to find it are scaled back

1 week later an ROV finds the intact sub with composting bodies on.

navy looks pretty stupid and fairly liable for the result.

“At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed,” he said. “Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”

that’s fine if that’s what you want to do knock yer self out, charging people for the privilege is something else.

Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?

It sounds a bit like they were essentially stress testing their submarine design – live, with people in it.

Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?

Probably just wandered up to some dude and told him he wanted his clothes, his boots and his motorcycle.

Would you get on a plane that somebody had knocked up in their shed?

Yes because it’s not going to get off the ground without an inspection and airworthiness certificate.

You used to be able to .. and I have before it was over regulated.

They still are, my mates making one. HTH

Thank goodness… all the HSSE fairies rubbing their hands together for the opportunity to regulate yet something else.

For someone who gets so wound up about “dishonest” teachers you do lap up some shite. God forbid we don’t let people die in stupid and preventable ways.

Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?

Exactly..what a hypocrite

Afterall, According to some folks mx is as dangerous as going to visit the titanic in an experimental carbon tube..

told him he wanted his clothes, his boots and his motorcycle.

Chapeau 👌

Afterall, According to some folks mx is as dangerous as going to visit the titanic in an experimental carbon tube..

Statistics on Dirt Bike (Off Road) Accidents 2019
In 2019 4733 motorcycles drivers was killed. Out of them 61 was Off Road riders (1.28 %).

I am not sure how you would statistically quantify it, but clearly people do die in MX, you could argue for 2 years Titan had a 100% safety record

I don’t think you can regulate against stupidity – if you want to build a plastic tube and go to the bottom of the ocean on it, knock yourself out – but you should probably legislate against people commercialising it

How many ‘missions’ had the Titan completed?

As for the passengers I’m sure I read that the French guy had been down with them once before?

On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.

There’s some irony to this:

Mr Rush was married to Wendy Rush, who is the great-great-granddaughter of Isidor and Ida Straus, who died in the Titanic wreck after letting women and children escape before them.

On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.

its beyond me why anyone would want to go up Everest these days.

Its literally a queue from top to bottom, literally shit every where, rubbish and a good few dead bodies to remind you that you are in a seriously screwed up place.

In theory Everest is regulated, yet they are letting dangerous numbers of people up the mountain to the point it has almost become impossible to get down without running out of oxygen

That really is tragic. I doubt anything that stupid would have been anywhere near the top of my to do list when I was 19. Yeah, that sounds great dad, but can we not just go to a gig or something instead?

I would have wanted to go at 19. Almost certainly would have chickened out/immediately refused due to general fear.

I still want to go now (but in the nice titanium one, not the shitty carbon one) but would 100% refuse due to general fear. I don’t even like swimming off a boat when you don’t know where the bottom is or whats beneath you. The deep blue sea is not for me.

Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?

Because he can! He’s James Cameron!

To be fair he’s spent more money on other things “because he can’ than just about anyone else on the planet. He checks out the material science too. That MX jersey could probably stop a sniper bullet or withstand reentry into the earth’s atmosphere.

How many ‘missions’ had the Titan completed?

As for the passengers I’m sure I read that the French guy had been down with them once before?

25 (iirc) and yes. Which is why there’s a good chance it just reached the end of what it could handle and a went *pop*

For a 19 year old, its a properly shit way to die.

You’re meant to die of your own stupidity at that age. Drugs overdoses, car crashes, shagging yourself to death, not getting killed by your dad because he wanted to look at a rusty old boat

Interestingly someone on Mastodon was pointing out that Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals and loses tensile strength when in contact with salt water.

As we have specialists in just about everything here, any materials bods able to confirm or deny this?

If true the vessel had a limited lifespan and would be an expensive and environmentally unfriendly way to explore at depth.

Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals

Ti and Carbon are (relatively) next to each other in the galvanic series so id imagine the lack of galvanic corrosion was why they were paired.

Some lessons possibly will have been learnt from this

Like don’t buy snake oil.

On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.

I do know how many ascents of Everest have been made and how many fatalities. I know how many fatalities there have been in Titan but not how many successful trips there have been down to the Titanic.

I do know how many ascents of Everest have been made and how many fatalities.

There’s a roughly 1:20 death rate for people who actually try (or succeed) to reach the summit.

I know how many fatalities there have been in Titan but not how many successful trips there have been down to the Titanic.

This was its fourth trip to the titanic, although reportedly it had done 50 trips in total including others to similar depths.  So your fatality rate is 1:50-1:4 depending on how you want to measure it.

Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals and loses tensile strength when in contact with salt water.

50 trips at  maximum of 8hrs/trip is less than 17 days immersed in water.

Given that a large number of racing yacht hulls are made of CF (and vastly more rigs) I’m finding that one a little hard to believe.

its beyond me why anyone would want to go up Everest these days.

For the Instagram/social media likes

I hate the sea and everything in it

I’m definitely of the view they were tourists interested in the bragging rights rather than explorers

It’s just a depressing story from start to finish, poor engineering design, poor in-service management, lack of a regulator, lack of oversight, it’s beyond a cowboy operation, and it’s even more depressing that all we’re getting just now is lots of people saying ‘i told you so’, in my business the safety culture is a key part of everything, and this whole scenario sounds like they have none at all at any level.

50 trips at maximum of 8hrs/trip is less than 17 days immersed in water.

Given that a large number of racing yacht hulls are made of CF (and vastly more rigs) I’m finding that one a little hard to believe.

Is it that the CF doesn’t actually come in contact with the salt water? It’s the gelcoat, or what ever the high tech equivalent is, that seals the CF. Maybe this isn’t possible at these extreme pressures?

No real clue, just a possibility.

re: the MX jersey, he has for years.

Why does James Cameron wear a motocross jersey literally everywhere?

I hate the sea and everything in it

What, even dolphins? No-one can hate dolphins.

This was its fourth trip to the titanic, although reportedly it had done 50 trips in total including others to similar depths.  So your fatality rate is 1:50-1:4 depending on how you want to measure it.

Actually I just read through the  Oceangate Wiki which makes interesting reading regarding the design and construction. It all says “28 persons visited the Titanic on the Titan in 2022, 21 of whom were “mission specialists”, i.e., non-staff passengers. In total, OceanGate undertook six dives to Titanic in 2021 and seven in 2022″.

That’s a lot more than I thought and suggests about 50 or so individual trips suggesting a fatality rate of 10%.

Now back in the days of big “professional” Everest trips (or indeed 8000m peak trips) 10% was reckoned to be the ratio of fatalities to attempts, so roughly the same. Now in these days of commercial expeditions although we see headline news of huge loss of life the total number of fatalities (including those earlier expeditions) is about 310 out of a total number of ascents of over 11300. That’s roughly 3% and research by University of Washington and University of California suggests a death rate since 1990 of about 1%.

I think some of the Everest stats counted fatalities against successful summits rather than attempts, which again made it look a lot worse than it was.

If you look at fatalities vs climbers above base camp, things looked a little different even in the 70s and 80s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47418215

I’m finding that one a little hard to believe.

Problem with that comparison is the 350 to 400 bar of pressure the material is under when used sub-surface at 4km depth, so while useful in forming a view it’s not the whole story.

@trail_rat Thanks for that.

I suspect that there’s some research money about to be spent on finding out about the effects of extreme pressure on CF and titanium bonded structures.