Oceangate Sub Missing

Titanics big sister had interesting career, from trying to tow a battleship to taking out a U-boat.

I just don’t understand the fascination with the Titanic

You wouldn’t get me down there for love nor money but I totally understand the draw. It’s the romance, the mythology and mystery of it. I rarely experience that emotional state these days because, well, the internet can reveal every mystery, and I’m lazy. But it’s like when you’re a kid and there’s that huge tree that nobody has climbed, or the church tower, or the dark culvert that the brook runs into. Then later on, urban exploring, old mansions, trainyards etc… the buzz is delicious!

Or, cynic mode: it’s all about the clout for social media 🙂

RIP

Anyone see the interview with Michael Harris on BBC news, 6.30ish? Ouch. Credible titanic site sub operator, was very direct on the risks and lack of testing etc. Said he wouldn’t have got in it for a million dollars. Has been to the wreck 14 times in Ti sphere design subs.

It’s the romance, the mythology and mystery of it.

But the romance came after the fascination, and there is no mystery – it’s the iceberg whodunit.

I guess the mythology is the alledged romance and mystery, so I’ll give you that.

Sad conclusion to the incident.

But can’t help thinking the gung-ho attitude of the CEO or Company are massively to blame.

Adventure tourism is a massive industry, whether it’s a trek to Everest base camp, summiting Everest, plunging the depths of the ocean, going into space with Bezos or Branson or just a guided ride around the Lakes. There’s risk involved in all of these – and more mundane activities.

Can’t help thinking the more extreme end will find more niche adventures for those that can afford it.

Surprised that the solo British guy went on it though – sure I read he’d been down to the Challenger Deep on another submersible – the Titan looks very Heath Robinson in comparison (not sure Heath or Robinson would have put their name to it).

Sad end to the story, but not unexpected. I’m glad they didn’t suffer in any way

Calls for an investigation seem a bit pointless to me. Ultimately it’s clear that the vessel wasn’t fit for purpose, and had no place taking ‘tourists’, especially that poor 19 year old.

there is definitely a lesson to be learned here however for anyone else considering doing something similar, and I imagine anyone who is booked in to one of these tourist space flights is probably giving it a second thought now

Surprised that the solo British guy went on it though

It is a bit surprising. It sounded like he did a lot of adventuring so i would expect him to be able to assess risk.  Maybe he decided that although it looked shonky he trusted that they had done the right work.  A lot will come down to whether or not they properly assessed risks rather than what it appeared to be.  I don’t imagine the waivers will stand for much if they didnt take appropriate care

Calls for an investigation seem a bit pointless to me.

I think an investigation is very worthwhile, there are a lot of questions to be answered here, here are a few for starters:
– Was the fundamental design flawed or was there west and tear/deterioration in service
– Were all key components designed for this pressure with an adequate safety margin
– Was poor maintenance and inspection a problem
– What knowledge did the company have that some parts of the vessel were more at risk
– Who should be regulating and approving trips in vessels like this and did they do a good job?

No doubt much of this will come out in the inevitable law suits that will follow.

it’s the iceberg whodunit.

with possible twist of fire in the coal bunker hence steaming at full speed through a pre advised ice berg area

Calls for an investigation seem a bit pointless to me. Ultimately it’s clear that the vessel wasn’t fit for purpose, and had no place taking ‘tourists’, especially that poor 19 year old.

Probably more to close the loopholes that were being exploited than establish a cause at this stage. After all, it’s obvious there are several billionaires out there that don’t have an STW naval architecture degree and need protecting from something that’s so obvious umpteen folk before them were taken in.

I imagine anyone who is booked in to one of these tourist space flights is probably giving it a second thought now

I think space flight is more tightly regulated though. Not least due to the risk of stuff falling on folk.

– Was the fundamental design flawed or was there west and tear/deterioration in service

Yes – there’s a reason DSV’s are usually spherical and not cylindrical.

– Were all key components designed for this pressure with an adequate safety margin

No, apparently the porthole was only certified to 1300m

– Was poor maintenance and inspection a problem

Yes – no non destructive ultrasound or similar was carried out before/after each mission

– What knowledge did the company have that some parts of the vessel were more at risk

Probably a fair bit – see gung-ho attitude of CEO and firing of ‘Safety Expert’.

– Who should be regulating and approving trips in vessels like this and did they do a good job?

No one – it’s not mandatory to get it type approved apparently, and Lloyds wouldn’t insure it, so make of that what you will…

Deep sea tourism doesn’t appear to be regulated, don’t even know if you have to get a permit to dive Titanic like you do other wrecks.

Caveat the above with most of the info I got through reading news articles and other online sources.

I’m not Marine/Naval engineer but have an interest in wrecks etc through diving.

Watch last nights channel 4 news. It’s pretty damning. The ‘vessel’ had obviously been cobbled together in someone’s backstreet lock-up and been declared as ‘experimental’ to avoid having to comply with any regulations.

I’d be absolutely amazed if this all turns out to be legal. Which I’m sure the families of the dead wil be about to test

But the main point is that you’d have to be out of your ****ing mind to be agreeing to a trip as dangerous as that on some untested ‘experimental’ vehicle

Would you get on a plane that somebody had knocked up in their shed?

Calls for an investigation seem a bit pointless to me. Ultimately it’s clear that the vessel wasn’t fit for purpose, and had no place taking ‘tourists’, especially that poor 19 year old.

there is definitely a lesson to be learned here however for anyone else considering doing something similar,

would the point of an investigation not be to ensure that the right lessons are learned (eg it might be a need for testing/classification, it might be a need not to use carbon, it might be that it was a material aging thing, there will also be lessons on how you respond to an incident, and you think there should be lessons on who is allowed on board etc.)

RIP hopefully they didn’t suffer

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Titanics big sister had interesting career, from trying to tow a battleship to taking out a U-boat.</p>

I’ve partied in the dining suite a few times.

Glad to see @dirkpitt has fully investigated the cause.

Would you get on a plane that somebody had knocked up in their shed?

Maybe, if it had previously completed more than 50 flights, including some very difficult and challenging flights.

But I wouldn’t get into any 22 foot submarine in which only one person can stretch their legs, and then travel down over 12000 feet just to look at a rusting wreck, no matter how well constructed and vigorously tested the sub might be.

Even WW2 German U-boats would have felt like palaces compared to that.

I’d be absolutely amazed if this all turns out to be legal. Which I’m sure the families of the dead wil be about to test

mmm… Im not sure.  If you inherited billions would you waste it suing the relics of the company that will almost certainly go bust anyway?  If the CEO survived I could see you might want to make a point but in the circumstances it would seem like an expensive way to try and prove a point.

But the main point is that you’d have to be out of your ****ing mind to be agreeing to a trip as dangerous as that on some untested ‘experimental’ vehicle

well, I’m inclined to agree with that, although it wasn’t its first trip and I can see that this would give you a false sense of security.  People take huge risks all the time, many of them being catastrophic – they just aren’t usually as public.

But the romance came after the fascination, and there is no mystery – it’s the iceberg whodunit.

I guess the mythology is the alledged romance and mystery, so I’ll give you that.

I think it demonstrates the arrogance of man’s belief the ship to be unsinkable hence the lack of life boats and the fact it foundered on its maiden voyage adds to the notoriety. It did lead to positive outcomes regards life boat provision and the establishment of the ice patrol though.

@tonyf1 although not it’s maiden voyage, there do appear to be some parallels here, especially if an inquest brings about some regulation as an output of this tragedy.

A quick wiki on ‘Alvin’ DSV certainly makes you think the craft was far from capable.

Actually, the lack of lifeboats wasn’t because it was ‘unsinkable’. The regulations applied to other ships as well. I believe they effectively did a hazard analysis which said “How could this sort of ship sink.?” Essentially they decided that if it hit rocks it would be close enough to shore not to need enough for everyone because they could essentially shuttle people ashore. If they hit another ship they reckoned it would stay afloat long enough for rescue to arrive. They just didn’t factor in icebergs. There was logic in the regulations, but it was sadly flawed.

I think it demonstrates the arrogance of man’s belief the ship to be unsinkable

I think that is part of the mythology. It was never claimed that the Titanic was unsinkable.

In reference to both the Olympic and Titanic the claim that White Star Line made was :

“as far as it is possible to do so, these two wonderful vessels are designed to be unsinkable”

The Olympic, which was pretty much identical, never sunk.

RIP hopefully they didn’t suffer

Equivalent of the Eiffel Tower landed on them, doubt they even knew what was happening

But the main point is that you’d have to be out of your ****ing mind to be agreeing to a trip as dangerous as that on some untested ‘experimental’ vehicle

I wonder what the share price of Branson’s company is doing right now…

Hopefully tanking as he’s a greasy weaselly shitbag

RIP hopefully they didn’t suffer
Equivalent of the Eiffel Tower landed on them, doubt they even knew what was happening

A nautical expert on a programme earlier said the pressure at that depth is something like 350psi, and that a pinhole would cause a jet of water that would slice through a human like a laser cutter – for a fraction of a second, until the whole thing is crushed like a Coke can. Nobody would have been able to even react, it would have been almost instantaneous. Which is at least a blessing. I doubt very much any human remains will ever be found, they will join those lost with Titanic, which is classified as a marine gravesite, IIRC.

The living (now dead) embodiment of the phrase ‘ just because you can, doesn’t mean you should’

A nautical expert on a programme earlier said the pressure at that depth is something like 350psi

I thought they were about 3000 meters down, which would be about 300 atmospheres, so more like 4000 psi. The pressure on a 12 inch diameter circle would exert a force of around 200 tons.

Bloke on 5live said earlier that as vessel was largely made of carbon fibre it’s still a relatively untried material for this kind of use.

Assuming a sea water density of 8.68 ppg, and that the incident happened at the same depth as the Titanic, 12500 ft  The pressure would be ~5600 psi.

This is as reported on the Beeb.

The aunt of the 19 yo lad that lost his life says he told her he was terrified of the upcoming mission. He went ahead with it to please his dad on Fathers Day over there. Desperately sad.

Condolences to the bereaved. Sadly the outcome was not unexpected from the moment the disappearance was reported.

RIP hopefully they didn’t suffer

Equivalent of the Eiffel Tower landed on them, doubt they even knew what was happening

Someone on Reddit worked out that the vessel would have taken 0.025 seconds to implode at the pressures it was at assuming it went the second they lost contact. Seeing as it takes 0.125 seconds for the pain signal to reach the brain and then get processed it’s likely they had no idea it was happening until it had happened. Even if it took 1/4 second to crush them they wouldn’t have had the time to realised what was happening, some comfort to the families I hope.

The aunt of the 19 yo lad that lost his life says he told her he was terrified of the upcoming mission. He went ahead with it to please his dad on Fathers Day over there. Desperately sad.

I think “press-gang” is the term for this.

Rip an avoidable tragedy 🙁

Glad to see @dirkpitt has fully investigated the cause

Ironic comment? Dirk Pitt is a Clive Cussler character from the National Underwater and Marine Agency (NUMA), which does exist (now) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Underwater_and_Marine_Agency

RIP hopefully they didn’t suffer

+1

The implosion would happen in under 20 milliseconds, faster than our brain could comprehend. Let’s hope that the failure wasn’t obvious before this

Seeing as it takes 0.125 seconds for the pain signal to reach the brain and then get processed

Does it take a different path when you get a cricket ball in the nuts? Touring all the other areas of the body first just to tell them ‘watch this!’

Coming out now that noise of an implosion was heard on Monday.

Im guessing the military know what the sound of an implosion sounds like, but I guess they keep looking as you just do until you know oxygen would have definitely run out or you can see the outcome with you own eyes

RIP all on board. Some lessons possibly will have been learnt from this

They are also saying that as it was being used in international waters there is no regulatory authority involved so no testing, inspection, compliance or anything like that required.

“These men were… protecting the world’s oceans.”

I have to take issue with this nonsense at the end of the official statement about protecting the ocean. They were doing the opposite for vanity.