Now that’s proper political hypocrisy!

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  • Now that’s proper political hypocrisy!
  • Here I come rolling in, one of the “left wing flamers” as you’d have others believe Stoner. I can’t see the problem with this…and in much the same way, though the BNP have every right to contest elections on whatever level, it wouldn’t bother me if the tories did the same thing. In fact they should, shouldn’t they? They’d have more of a chance of getting BNP voters to switch to them.

    Souldn’t parties box a bit clever when it comes to convincing voters not to vote for parties like the BNP? Why, exactly, should they blindly stick to one slogan?

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    their switch of slogan almost perfectly illustrates Labour’s own nationalistic approach to the next election. In non-BNP targeted seats they see a nationalistic message as one that will win them support. By dropping that message in the face of BNP opposition they are concedeing that the BNP have a stronger nationalistic message.

    I certainly dont see this as an attack by me on the left wing, if anything its an attack on the right wing nationalism/protectionism tendencies in the labour movement.

    If even the labour party dont have the confidence to pitch their positive agenda how on earth do they expect to win the support of the electorate?

    RudeBoy
    Member

    So, you regularly attack religion, for it’s ‘backwardness, intolerance and narrow-mindedness’, yet have a pop at Labour, for wanting to combat racial and cultural intolerance?

    Can’t beat consistency, eh, Stoner?

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    once again fred, the main thrust of my post has gone sailing past your little mind.

    Why have the Tories more chance of luring across BNP voters? Many of the areas in which support for BNP is on the rise are former (or current) Labour areas. Surely Labour are at fault for failing to address the concerns of former/current supporters rather than the Tories for not supplying a ‘right-wing light’ alternative in these areas where it’d often be the last party to be voted for due to historical gripes. As an aside though, on a few issues the Tories are actually less right-wing than Labour and you’d think the kind of morons who’d vote BNP would be all for ID cards and stricter border controls, if only to stop ‘them'(as they are often described in the Daily Wail) coming over here and stealing the jobs off of the hard-working British benefit class lay-abouts. Sorry, that last sentance may be a bit of mash-up of standard Daily Wail fodder and may not accurately portray the actual situation.

    RudeBoy
    Member

    once again fred, the main thrust of my post has gone sailing past your little mind.

    I hardly think that Labour’s ‘nationalistic’ approach to the next election is on a par with the BNPs vile ideology, Stoner.

    As for the main thrust of your posts, it just seems that you want to attack and belittle anything you don’t agree with. Fine, but be prepared for criticism.

    Personally, anyone who makes an effort to combat the BNP should be applauded, imo. There is a significant increase in the amount of support the BNP are getting; they are no longer the marginal bunch of extremist **** they once were; their ’cause’ is gaining support, thanks to the betrayal of Labour, of the Working Classes, and the increasing fear amongst our diverse population.

    I tell you what hazzunt gone sailing over my head, Stoner; the fact that the BNP represent a threat to freedom and democracy. Maybe it’s escaped you, though.

    Good on Labour or anyone, for considering this a serious issue, and taking steps to address it.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Labour is using the slogan “fairness not fear” in areas where there is heavy BNP activity, instead of its national banner “winning the fight for Britain’s future”.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7993595.stm

    you cant beat consistency in political stance can you?

    sq225917
    Member

    What’s that Labour accused of geographical targeting, whatever next accusing them of writing leaflets in welsh for use in Wales. Will this Geographism never cease?

    The dirty Ba5tards.

    Stoner, I think your starting to become a parody of yourself. Labour can be criticised for loads of things but in this case it seems like a nothing story. Keep your powder dry for when they do get it wrong, you’ll only have to wait for a day or so.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    hypocrisy 😉 – though I’m not quite sure it is.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    I don’t have a problem with this, I’m actually quite impressed that Labour are taking on the BNP rather than ducking the issues.

    Much better than if they stuck with a nationalistic message that could be construed as designed to encroach on BNP support anyway.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    I’ve got to agree with what has been previously said by others Stoner. I can’t see the problem with New labour dealing with the BNP as a specific problem which needs to be challenged in a particular way. And I like the idea of focusing on the use, by the BNP, of ‘fear’.

    Presumably it was considered that the national slogan of “winning the fight for Britain’s future” might instead of being seen as a patriotic statement, be seen in areas with strong BNP support as racist. I guess that in areas where support for racism is low, it was considered that the slogan would not be misinterpreted.

    And there’s nothing wrong with being ‘patriotic’ and putting Britain’s interests first. Although I might challenge just how patriotic New Labour actually is.

    Still I’m glad that New Labour are seeing the BNP as a serious threat, and are now prepared to directly challenge their message of fear and hate.

    Let’s hope it’s also backed up with an actual commitment to help those abandoned and disenfranchised communities who are at the bottom of the heap, and who’s genuine grievances fascists have always been so keen to exploit. Although sadly, I won’t be holding my breath.

    I have to agree with deadlydarcy’s comment about the BNP/Tory vote. Whilst BNP support is overwhelmingly in Labour strongholds, the typical poor white voter who votes BNP in those areas, is often the same typical poor white voter who votes Tory.

    However I can understand the Tories not wanting to get involved in serious campaigning in territories which are not naturally theirs. So it’s probably best left to Labour to take on the BNP.

    BTW, I am reliably informed that the TUC has allocated huge amounts of money to fight an expected BNP threat. Apparently at the expense of many other also worthwhile campaigns.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Presumably it was considered that the national slogan of “winning the fight for Britain’s future” might instead of being seen as a patriotic statement, be seen in areas with strong BNP support as racist. I guess that in areas where support for racism is low, it was considered that the slogan would not be misinterpreted.

    thank you Gus, at least someone with some nouse has caught on to the point I was trying to make. I should probably try and write things out in more detail for the simpler forumites.

    Where you think the slogan wouldnt be mininterpreted I would say that it quite easily could be. Especially in the light of increasing calls for a more nationalistic approach to employment coming from the shop floors. What is a nationalist rallying cry if not a jingoistic one? A vote for a party with a nationalistic slogan is not a patriotic act (although honouring democracy through voting itself obviously is)

    As for patriotism, I have my lunch on Tuesdays sat in front of the memorial to Edith Cavell opposite the National Portrait Gallery. On which is inscribed the following quote attributed to her: “Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone”

    grizzlygus
    Member

    Where you think the slogan wouldnt be mininterpreted I would say that it quite easily could be.

    If people are misinterpreting patriotism with jingoism and racism, then that would probably be because it’s been so long since patriotism has been on the agenda. Ever since Thatcher, and yes I blame Thatcher, put money and profit before all else, the needs of the country has played second fiddle.

    You only need to look at Britain’s armed forces procurement polices for proof of that. It is the most ‘open’ in the world, and the most deeply unpatriotic.

    Time to re-establish the virtues of patriotism I reckon, and deny fascist the ability to exploit one of the many “genuine grievances” of which I mentioned.

    IWH
    Member

    I think it’s hilarious the Labour are pitching ‘Fairness not Fear’ when for the past 9 years they’ve done everything they can to make this nation scared.

    I don’t want to see the BNP get into any sort of position of power but for Labour to even consider using such a slogan boils my bodily fluids.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    such a slogan boils my bodily fluids.

    Well as long as it’s a slogan which “boils your bodily fluids”

    You wouldn’t want get all worked up about something trivial now would you ?

    IWH
    Member

    Shock. Horror. GrizzlyGus once again misquotes me to suit a need to have a dig.

    Feel better?

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Subscriber

    IWH may have volatile fuids but I think he(?)’s on the money with the hypocrisy aspect – IMO this govt has manipulated media & public more than any predecessor in order to push through a series of half-arsed laws (oh yeah, and WARs)

    I’d assumed that was what stoner meant when I started reading. I think it’s a better point than the one he apparently did intend, about targetted campaigning

    grizzlygus
    Member

    Yeah I’m feeling pretty good IWH – thanks.

    But did I bugger up the ‘quote’ function ?

    konabunny
    Member

    I’m actually quite impressed that Labour are taking on the BNP

    How? By fielding candidates in every constituency possible, just like they always do, and by suggesting that the BNP is the critical player in the seat which requires them to change their slogan?

    Maybe a better way of taking on the BNP and its support would have been to avoid a whole lot of xenophobic cobblers like British Jobs For British Workers.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    a whole lot of xenophobic cobblers like British Jobs For British Workers.

    I don’t consider “British Jobs For British Workers” to be xenophobic cobblers.

    I consider it to be more, “self-evident cobblers”.

    After all, no one is likely have a slogan ‘British Jobs For Foreign Workers’ are they ?

    Sadly this government never had any intention of implementing the “for British workers” part of the slogan, thereby exposing it’s indisputable “clobbers” element.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Maybe not inherently xenophobic, but quite evidently designed to appeal to xenophobes.

    Sadly this government never had any intention of implementing the “for British workers” part of the slogan, thereby exposing it’s indisputable “clobbers” element.

    How could they have, legally? Hence why it was cobblers.

    RudeBoy
    Member

    I should probably try and write things out in more detail for the simpler forumites.

    What, you mean those who you arrogantly consider to be ‘inferior’ to your incredibly intelligent and enlightened self?

    Get over yourself, Stoner. You may be more eloquent than some of us, you may be more informed on matters of the economy, and one or two areas of political life.

    But don’t be so naive as to think yourself superior.

    It takes more than being able to fathom a Sudoku puzzle, to consider yourself a fair commentator on all aspects of society.

    You’re probbly a fairly decent bloke, I’d imagine. Probbly a decent husband and a good father. You’re undoubtedly intelligent, and well-educated. But you have revealed certain gaps in your experience of life, as I’m sure we all have. Maybe you just need to take a step or two back, and try and see things from a different perspective, once in a while.

    I see this thread as an attempt by you, to appear ‘clever and informed’. Instead, you’ve just made yourself look a bit of a narrow-minded numpty, imo.

    The BNP are scum. Labour, for all their faults, are nowhere near on the same hateful level. And if they are actually trying to tackle the BNP head on, using language and rhetoric they feel potential BNP voters may relate to, then good luck to them. Anyone who tries to turn people away from Fascism deserves some respect, in my book. Why knock them for it?

    I accept that Nu Labour are a party sullied by the deeds of certain individuals, and have many inexcusable faults, and they are not a party that I feel represents me, as a voter. But they, the Tories and anyone else, stand head and shoulders above the scum that are the BNP.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    quite evidently designed to appeal to xenophobes.

    Why is it quite evidently designed to appeal to xenophobes ?

    I don’t think that securing British jobs for British workers represents some sort of ‘strange irrational fear’.

    In fact, I think it rather represents ‘common sense’.

    As far as the legality of the issue is concerned, if a government has the political will then there is plenty of scope and opportunities to protect and secure British jobs for the British labour market.

    I think people are falling into a BNP/fascist trap if they are scared to deal the issues which might be otherwise considered to be so-called “BNP territory”.

    The BNP are not patriotic. They are a bunch of moronic fukkwits who hate and despise large sections of the British Nation. Including all black, asian, moslem, and gay Britons.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    As far as the legality of the issue is concerned, if a government has the political will then there is plenty of scope and opportunities to protect and secure British jobs for the British labour market.

    The political will to leave the EU?

    grizzlygus
    Member

    One option. And there are others.

    What’s more important – Britain or the EU ?

    grizzlygus
    Member

    BTW chrism, my understanding is that the government bale-out of the banks was in clear breach of EU competition laws.

    And yet the government didn’t blink I eyelid, and quite right too …. fukk ’em.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    What’s more important – Britain or the EU ?

    You want my opinion, or stating yours? The implication of your comments would be, rather surprisingly, that you agree at least partially with my views on our membership of the EU…

    my understanding is that the government bale-out of the banks was in clear breach of EU competition laws.

    You’re probably right – hadn’t really considered that point (though if so, is there a single country which hasn’t breached those laws recently?) So they could do it illegally – doesn’t really contradict my point, particularly given I suspect less of a blind eye might be turned were they to shut down the free movement of labour.

    BTW, probably should add that I do agree with most of what you’ve written in this thread, GG.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    You want my opinion, or stating yours?

    Well actually I was asking for yours, although I must admit that I thought the answer should be pretty obvious.

    British jobs for British workers

    See I take this as increasing the amount of jobs in britian for people who work here (could be any nationality) I’ll admit though that thick people may not see it as that but then if they are stupid enoug to think labour would be trying to get rid of foreign workers who legally work here, well are they worth worrying about?

    As for the BNP link well had they been using this slogan in those areas then I might give it some thought but they are using a different slogan so I see that as pretty good really.

    Oh and Stoner I think most people understood your point we just couldnt get worked up about it.

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    As others have said, I find the idea that Labour are somehow not thriving on us being scared as the most amusing part. Although it is fair to say that they use fear more subtly than our shaven monkey friends in the National Party.

    And as always LOL at (not with) Rubedoy. When are you going to grasp that “clever”, “informed”, “intellectual” and “articulate” are really lame insults? 🙂 🙄

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    I missed a lot of this last night. nicely put post by konabunny.

    and as ever rudeboy’s there to play the village idiot. The thread is not about the BNP. If you still cant quite get past that, then really I dont know why you bother.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    nicely put post by konabunny

    I agree, excellent presentation and spelling.

    Shame he completely missed the point that fascism is a specific problem which needs to be dealt in a specific way.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    but watered-down jingoism is fine in the home counties?

    grizzlygus
    Member

    Jingoism is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as “extreme patriotism in the form of aggressive foreign policy

    I can see that you’ve completely missed the point stoner.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    BTW stoner, thank you for using the term ‘Home Counties’. It’s a term which is very rarely used these days, and yet one which I dearly love.

    I guess it must be the watered-down South Eastern/London jingoism which runs through my veins, that makes me go all misty-eyed when I hear it.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    I must admit that I thought the answer should be pretty obvious.

    I did think of suggesting you just had a guess 😉

    RudeBoy
    Member

    and as ever rudeboy’s there to play the village idiot. The thread is not about the BNP. If you still cant quite get past that, then really I dont know why you bother.

    Well, forgive me for being an idiot, but what I read, based on the story in the link you posted, was that the Labour Party, concerned about the potential threat posed by the BNP, have resorted to what you consider ‘nationalistic’ slogans to try and appeal to those who may have considered voting BNP. In the same way that they appealed to the Middle-Classes, to win the ’97 GE.

    And you are suggesting that they are being ‘hypocritical’, in using slogans that might suggest they are concerned with keeping British Jobs for British Workers, or whatever.

    It’s hardly on a par with ‘All the Darkies are coming over here and taking White people’s jobs’, or ‘Send The Buggers Back’, or some other such nastiness, is it?

    So, you don’t consider that Labour, or anyone, should be making any efforts to tackle the problem of the BNP, or even consider there is an issue?

    Head in the sand time, is that what you’re saying?

    Stoner; why don’t you stop worryting about the Labour Party all the bloody time, and have a think about what you are doing to help make Society a better place. Why not take all that anger and energy inside you, and write to your MP, or form your own party or something? It is, after all, your Democratic Right, you know.

    You don’t ‘alf get your knickers in a twist about things involving the Labour Party, Stoner. Always poised to criticise any minute aspect of their policies or activities. The Labour Party are crap. They’re all crap. Whoop-de-do. Tell us something we don’t know…

    Why not take up a hobby or a sport, help ease your stress? I hear mountain biking’s quite fun… 😉

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    The thread is not about the BNP. If you still cant quite get past that, then really I dont know why you bother.

    No, this thread is about Labour using a specific campaign slogan in areas with BNP activity.

    Why do you have an issue with political parties sending different messages to different parts of the electorate? I don’t see how they’re necessarily contradictory, although I can see how you could misread them as such if you were determined to.

    How? By fielding candidates in every constituency possible, just like they always do, and by suggesting that the BNP is the critical player in the seat which requires them to change their slogan?

    Erm, yes. By changing their slogan to address the BNP specifically on a local level.

    I’m not defending Labour in general, the “British Jobs” slogan seemed like an appalling knee-jerk reaction to that oil refinery story, but I think credit is due here.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    You’re off topic stoner mate.

    I’ll take that as you throwing in the towel.

    And another humiliating defeat for you, in the exciting world of virtual politics.

    .

    .

    :mrgreen:

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    It was a lovely dance.

    🙂

    I have some fettlin’ to attend to.

    grizzlygus
    Member

    It was a lovely dance.

    Yes indeed it was.

    Different time, but same place tomorrow ?

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