not enough bickering about politics on the forum of late..

I blame fatcha

Same shit, different colour ties. What is there to argue about?

Isn’t it because the real criminal is Blair and the Left can’t accept they royally screwed that one up by voting him into his mis-use of power?

The left and right is a construction.. divide and conquer and all that

S’all the Eton Mafia

The problem is all the Tory boys have either left STW or are too ashamed to post on political threads 😉

shame coz cameron got caught with his pants on fire but is too arrogant to admit theyve got it wrong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21714549

The “left” earlier today enjoying Tory car crash government.

Doesn’t matter who you vote for, the government still gets in.. and all those slimy self serving power hungry posh politicians that WE vote for that stand for little or nothing as far as I’m concerned.

Money is power

The best way to change things is to vote….I know none of them really deserve it, but vote anyway…even if its monster raving looney. Blair got elected on a ridiculously low turnout..as do most of them.

Party I last voted for got 217 votes compared the the winners 16700

Sounds like we voted the same…

I assumed that it was because anyone who voted for BLiar in 2005 had been sent to The Hague to be tried for warcrimes and anyone who voted for Brown subsequently has had their crayons taken off them so that they don’t hurt themselves.

<devils advocate>
Only because the leftwing bias in the [*whatever] means that decent thinking conservative views are effectively banned by the marxist junta that runs [whatever].

*STW, the BBC, your local library, primary school where they want teach your child pro european gayness!!!

</devils advocate>

😉

That might do it… depends who’s about. At work today so a good argument might pass the time.

They come over here with their bloody newts.

The only difference between the 2main parties is that I get to hate the Tories as they fully live up to their pantomime villain billing, (BOOOOOO HISSSSSSSS) whereas when I look at the Labour Party under Blair and brown its with an air of weary contempt

And looking at the Labour Party now? Oh dear! Really….. What is the point?

Perhaps the lack of bickering reflects that it is hard to understand what any party stands for these days and the ironic contradictions between what they say (or what others say about them) and what they actually do.

So we have a re-run of the last budget with good old uncle Vince washing the dirty laundry in public and tryng to shape policy via the media etc. And the latest contraditiction is the Tories defending (ring fencing) spending on the NHS while the lIb Dems (Uncle Vince) argue that all departments including health should face th same impact of cuts. Its a funny old world.

The perceived spat between DC and the OBR is an odd one since they are talking about different things is direct and indirect effects. Government spending in isolation is an injection into the economy and hence a reduction in spending will (all other things being equal) will have a negative impact on growth. Not even DC can argue against that. But the lack of action over perceived excess spending can also indirectly have a negative impact on growth indirectly via higher borrowing costs etc. Two very different points.

Why not tax assets and capital?

Would stop all the money pooling and stagnating the economy. No?

@binners- depressing isn’t it?
The LibDems were a moment of hope, now firmly extinguished and all thats left is ‘Tory Light’ and a bunch of one trick ponies.
We need a comedian to stand, Izzard for PM

Ernie Lynch has an alternative solution up his sleeve. Albeit from an extremist standpoint but one day he might articulate exactly what it entails.

There is no left and right wing in British politics anymore, just right wing, and more right wing, and morererer right wing
Or, same colour shit, different colour tie..
We’re doomed..

<devils advocate>
Only because the leftwing bias in the [*whatever] means that decent thinking conservative views are effectively banned by the marxist junta that runs [whatever].

*STW, the BBC, your local library, primary school where they want teach your child pro european gayness!!!

</devils advocate>

or could it just be that no-one likes a Tory..?

I’m assuming Dave and chums are praying we don’t have a long hot summer this year. As I’d say some retro inner city rioting will probably be the order of the day. As large chunks of a completely disengaged, and increasingly desperate society decide they’ve had enough, and presume, quite rightly, that our brain-dead political system is definitely not going to provide any alternatives. No circuses to provide a distraction this year, remember

Which could be quite interesting, as I can’t see the police mustering much enthusiasm for putting themselves in the firing line to defend our present political masters. And who can blame them?

Jolly lucky that Labour ended boom and bust, otherwise we might be in a spot of bother now.

It’s an interesting idea that UK politics is right wing, sorry more right wing, given that most poltical parties are jostling for the centre ground. And we have an PM desperate to play done his OE tag, or should is say tie, hanging around his neck. I assume that right wing Is taken as being loosely synonymous with free-markets, low government intervention, possibly privatisation, decentralised government, low tax, supply side reforms etc. And yet we continue to live and work in a mixed economy where the state plays a large role in allocating resources and in employment. In most cases, this happens where governments are best placed to allocate resources, but in plenty of others where they are not. But is doesn’t stop them. To counter this,even where the state is involved there has been a long, not recent, history of public/private sector partnership with differing degrees of success. Governments take large percentages of earnings from the population (and in a progressive manner that takes more from those who earn more) in order to fund their role. Hardly extreme right wing politics. Even now with a Tory-led coalition, the state plays a massive role in all aspects of lives and spending cuts have been more talk than action. And supply-side reforms…..?

And how many governments have actually cut their spending in absolute terms?

I’m off to play hockey vs Tamworth and even our formation is bereft of left and right wings, all down the centre, its bloody contagious!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/08/britain-economy-long-term-fix

Cameroon when he says were all in it together, is correct for once,when he uses it to class the conservitavives with the failed lib dems, yes luv youre all in the shit together, without a long enough ladder to get out,

and where is mili brand, dead, in a deep sleep or coma for all the worthless political amunition he is firing, a total and abject waste of space that he is along with his advisors,we a descent fighter somebody to look up to,not some woozy public school boy who has never worked in a real industrial job in his life.

Roll on the STW revolution.

All of this means that, without addressing the underlying decay in productive capabilities, Britain cannot fix its ailing economy. To deal with this problem, it urgently needs to develop a long-term productive strategy through a broad-based public consultation involving not just the government and private sector firms, but trade unions, educational institutions and research institutes.

The strategy should first carefully identify the industries, and the underlying technologies, that will be the future motor of the economy and then provide them with the necessary support. This could be in the form of subsidies for R&D, loan guarantees for small firms, or preferences in government procurement, and should be targeted at “strategic” industries, although they could also be in the form of policies that are apparently not industry-specific.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/08/britain-economy-long-term-fix

The trouble is that no government is really that interested in spending time and resources planning for the long-term, they just want quick fixes and easy point-scoring that they can take the credit for so they get re-elected, or go on to a nice consultancy role in industry.

It’s a fundamental flaw with democracy.

It’s an interesting idea that UK politics is right wing, sorry more right wing

Would you reject the idea tha there was a post war left wing consenus re beveridge, nationalisation, NHS, cradle to grave etc?
Its vioewed as right wing as we have moved to the right post Thatcher so that the middle ground is more right wing now.

And yet we continue to live and work in a mixed economy

So does china and the US but I assume you can see the difference in politics- everywhere is mixed so I am not sure what your point is tbh you can still be more right wing or more left wing whilst accepting a mixed economy. As they all would have state defence [ and i assume tax raising] technically everywhere will alwyas be mixed

Hardly extreme right wing politics

What would they do with the NHS if they could get away with it – either from the electorate or with the Libs help? I agre ethough its not extreme like say BNP or the republicans
I dont think even you would argue that the Tories are not more right wing than the alternatives but they are constrained because everyone likes some of the things they dislike but they will creep at the margins – its fair to say Labour started this but I think they had a line they would not cross [ that may be faith based 😉 ] the Tories line is probably only set by what they can get away with rather than what they want to do.

Overall though there is little to choose between the parties
the reality is that only swing voters matter
For example I will never vote Tory so Labour can count on my vote [ they cant I do an anti Tory vote] whatever they say so they can ignore their core vote and target those on the middle to jump ship. The tories have a bit of an issue with this as UKIP are stealing their core voter of the blue rinsed more jingostic [ closet racist] voter. I think this will cause them problems electorally tbh as it splits the rigth wing vote between one nation right wingers and the “nasty” party.

Grum is right politicians like to take the credit for things that are not their responsibilty – Brown ending boom and buist for example and then blaming other stuff when their plans dont work – euro zone for growth rates here. We all buy into this to some degree and they dontlook at making us bette rplaced in 20 years times but better placed at the next election
We alos get things like fuel duty where we shoudl try and discourage spending but no one can do anything as every voter [ pretty much] drives. it is also why the retires are so well protected – they vote so dont mess with them even if they are the ones who have taken the property bubble rise and the ones to recieve better pensions than we will even though they have not paid enough to cover their payments so they make us pay them

The Guardian piece seems to be a voice of reason IMO. We need to generate wealth in order to derive sufficient taxable income from people and businesses to fund the things we really value such as state provision of healthcare, education etc but there has to be some state support to get this moving, we are uncompetitive in so many areas. Spent quite a bit of time with Chinese engineering companies and they have few scruples re developing the sector, state support in terms of finance, protection, non prosecution of intellectual property theft, etc. Not suggesting we adopt all of the less desirable practices but it would help if we could level the playing field a bit.

Oops double post!

JY – as you have done, it is a good idea to step away from the UK and take a wider perspective. From that angle, it is very clear that the UK has had a long history of centerist-politics (does that word exist?). I am struggling to see any modern examples of major swings in political or even economic thinking. Where are UK’s Francos, Mussolinis, Pincohets, Che Guevaras or Chavezs – Farrage and Crowe????? C’mon!

Yes we have oscillated around a core eg, Beveridge versus Thatcher, but in both cases the reality was a long way from fact. One of the reasons, why I have been mistaken for a Thatcher apologist in the past, is the simple reason that I point out that in hard facts she achieved ‘massively’ less than either her critics or her supporters claim. Thatcherism itself, despite its longevity, was largely a myth in practice. Ditto, Ed Balls positions himself as a Keynesian economist and yet failed to live up to even the very basics of Keynesian teaching. Ronald Reagan, the great advocate of markets and supply-side economics spent government money like it was going out of style – Thatcher’s twin, would you adam and eve it?

China is also an excellent example of the same basic point. The major boost to China’s economic prosperity involved large scale liberalisation and introduction of market principles (alongside heav levels of state planning). A major shift toward the “centre” politically and economically at its most obvious. When you read the latest 5 year plan, what do you feel?

So I would reject the idea that we have a recent history with any real evidence of major political shits either way. On the contrary, we have had an evolution in political and economic thinking that has spread remarkably consistently across UK governments. Opening another argument, it is often argued that the reason for this is the existence of the monarchy. One of the key arguments monarchists put forward is that it avoids extreme political shifts. Without arguing any causation, the correlation there is pretty clear!

edit: on the NHS, note the irony I pointed out above, that it is VC not DC/GO calling for the end of ring fencing of the NHS etc. A Lib Dem telling the Tories to cut spending on our national treasure in the same way as everything else, even tanks and bombs. Amazing!

So I would reject the idea that we have a recent history with any real evidence of major political shits

I dunno. Thatcher and Blair were both pretty reprehensible. 🙂

Ooops! 😉 Perhaps that typo is worth keeping!

we like to grumble about this kind of thing, but we were asked if we wanted to try something only just a tiny bit different, and we said, emphatically, ‘no change please’.

it’s our fault. we’ve got the system of givernment we voted for.

you are right we are the worlds slowest country in terms of change- we slowly evolve hence we end up with archaic concepts like constitutional monarchy and still have an entrenched class system and stability bit we tread water.
We dont do radicals or even radicalism here that is for s No revolutions or loosing wars to bring about large scale change for sure – probably the emergence of the labour movement /fabians/unions or the suffragettes was the last examples of political radicalism…perhaps Beveridge but even the NHS was a result of long term steady change and none changed the entire landscape

Farage and Crowe raised a chuckle- are they not just both stuck in the past of little englander empire days and Union power rather than actually being radical. We are not likely to vote in a comedian led party at the next election now are we Eddie Izzard for PM? David Mitchel? Twitteratti Mr Fry? If we keep voting like this we will keep getting this

we like to grumble about this kind of thing, but we were asked if we wanted to try something only just a tiny bit different, and we said, emphatically, ‘no change please’.

it’s our fault. we’ve got the system of givernment we voted for.

We were offered a crap compromise, which was mercilessly campaigned against by our largely right-wing media – but yeah mostly people just fear change.

on the NHS, note the irony I pointed out above, that it is VC not DC/GO calling for the end of ring fencing of the NHS etc. A Lib Dem telling the Tories to cut spending on our national treasure in the same way as everything else, even tanks and bombs. Amazing!

Look deeper, THM.

I can’t explain Cable’s stance on equal distribution of cuts, but of course it was only last Tuesday that Cameron and Hunt narrowly missed getting away with sneaking past wording in section 75 of the Health and Social Care Act that over-rode the power of LCG’s to decide which areas of health spending they might like to put out to tender, so that basically everyhting was potentially for sale. (there is a much more long winded version of this available of course)

So in Cameron and Hunt’s position, why would you remove ringfences and allow cuts spending on health just as you were about to put as much of it as possible out to tender to private enterprise? Surely if your health secretary and his predecessor are massively beholden to party donors and supporters from private healthcare, you are going to want to put on as big a spread of goodies as possible for them when you are finally allowed to invite them to the party. Your guests would be most disappointed to find you had bought tesco value jam tarts when they were expecting proper ones. :/

Despite the act being voted through last year, section 75 and competition/tender rules would seem to still be very much a moving picture: I am not at all suprised at Cameron’s reluctance to rock the boat with funding at this point in time.

VC is difficult to follow at the best of times – but I have some sympathies for him, as fighting two battles at the same time (1 versus the Tories and 2 v Nick Clegg) must be hard work. Hiding behind a government position while simultaneously detonating small explosions and engaging in friendly-fire. Hats of to his PR department for hiding what he is truly like and creating this friendly, sensible father figure image.

So on the bickering front – what do you reckon was going through Clegg, Cable etc’s minds when they knew about that lovely Mr Huhne?

Big A, little A, bouncing B
The system might have got you but it won’t get me

1 – 2 – 3 – 4

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to ba yourself, by christ do you think they’ll let you?
They’re out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Hello, hello, hello, this is the Lord God, can you hear?
Hellfire and damnation’s what I’ve got for you down there
On earth I have ambassadors, archbishop, vicar, pope
We’ll blind you with morality, you’d best abandon any hope,
We’re telling you you’d better pray cos you were born in sin
Right from the start we’ll build a cell and then we’ll lock you in
We sit in holy judgement condemning those that stray
We offer our forgiveness, but first we’ll make you pay

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to be yourself, by christ do you think they’ll let you?
They’re out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Hello, hello, hello, now here’s a massage from your queen
As figurehead of the status quo I set the social scene
I’m most concerned about my people, I want to give them peace
So I’m making sure they stay in line with my army and police
My prisons and my mental homes have ever open doors
For those amongst my subjects who dare to ask for more
Unruliness and disrespect are things I can’t allow
So I’ll see the peasants grovel if they refuse to bow

External control are you gonna let them get you?
Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you?
You say you want to be yourself, by christ do you think they’ll let you?
They’re out to get you get you get you get you get you get you get you

Introducing the Prime Sinister, she’s a mother to us all
Like the dutch boy’s finger in the dyke her arse is in the wall
Holding back the future waiting for the seas to part
If Moses did it with is faith, she’ll do it with an army
Who at times of threatened crisis are certain to be there
Guarding national heritage no matter what or where
Palaces for kings and queens, mansions for the rich
Protection for the wealthy, defence of privilege
They’ve learnt the ropes In Ireland, engaged in civil war
Fighting for the ruling classes in their battle against the poor
So Ireland’s just an island? It’s an island of the mind
Great Britain? Future? Bollocks, you’d better look behind
Round every other corner stands P.C. 1984
Guardian of the future, he’ll implement the law
He’s there as a grim reminder that no matter what you do
Big brothers system’s always there with his beady eyes on you
From God to local bobby, in home and street and school
They’ve got your name and number while you’ve just got their rule
We’ve got to look for methods to undermine those powers
It’s time to change the tables. The future must be ours

Big A, little A, bouncing B
The system might have got you but it won’t get me

Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you’re the only you
No one else has got your eyes, can see the things you see
It’s up to you to change your life and my life’s up to me
The problems that you suffer from are problems that you make
The shit we have to climb through is the shit we choose to take
If you don’t like the life you live, change it now it’s yours
Nothing has effects if you don’t recognise the cause
If the programme’s not the one you want, get up, turn off the set
It’s only you that can decide what life you’re gonna get
If you don’t like religion you can be the antichrist
If your tired of politics you can be an anarchist
But no one ever changed the church by pulling down a steeple
And you’ll never change the system by bombing number ten
Systems just aren’t made of bricks they’re mostly made of people
You may send them into hiding, but they’ll be back again
If you don’t like the rules they make, refuse to play their game
If you don’t want to be a number, don’t give them your name
If you don’t want to be caught out, refuse to hear their question
Silence is a virtue, use it for your own protection
They’ll try to make you play their game, refuse to show your face
If you don’t want to be beaten down, refuse to join their race
Be exactly who you want to be, do what you want to do
I am he and she is she but you’re they only you

screw your parties and politics, you’re all sheep. anarchy and peace.