No more Zero vehicle band tax on electric cars

What we are objecting to is using this to claim that EVs are 100% fossil fuel powered. It makes no sense to suggest this in practical terms, it’s false accounting.

Mainly fossil fuel – as has been explained to you but you do not want to see this.  Its extra electricity consumption which is mainly produced by fossil fuel burning.

Its false accounting to claim anything different.

However, I didn’t spend anywhere near £10k extra on an EV, nor do most people. Thanks to zero BIK, the government is actually funding the extra in what I guess is the majority of cases.

Which is where I have an issue.  Instead of funding the purchase of an EV that money should be used for further decarbonising the grid.

Both needs to happen. New cars, for fleets and domestic use, need to be EV… and the grid needs decarbonising (that means both more renewable energy generation, and upgrading distribution and storage). Whatever the nit picking over fueling EVs, using them is better than putting any more ICE vehicles on the roads. Even with the existing energy mix. And that mix needs changing fast… as well.. to further reduce the emissions for new EVs over their life of use. There’s no conflict… it all goes together… more of one means we benefit more from more of the other.

Mainly fossil fuel – as has been explained to you but you do not want to see this.

You patronising arse.

 Instead of funding the purchase of an EV that money should be used for further decarbonising the grid.

Again I think we need both.  And both are happening, to be fair, quite quickly.  We need to decarbonise transport as well as electricity generation.

Mainly fossil fuel – as has been explained to you but you do not want to see this. Its extra electricity consumption which is mainly produced by fossil fuel burning.

An EV may or may not run on electricity generated by fossil fuels. It may run on renewables. It may run on nuclear.

An ICE vehicle will always run on fossil fuels.

Any EV running on anything means one less ICE vehicle running on fossil fuels. And if it is running on electricity generated from fossil fuels, it’s more efficient use of them than burning directly in an ICE.

The position is not perfect but it is better.

The grid is decarbonising and will continue to do so, there are different pathways, with different mixtures of solar, wind, biomass and other sources, but it is getting cleaner year on year.  That means that EVs will continue to get cleaner year on year.

In the nuclear thread, someone mentioned the book ‘sustainable energy without the hot air’ by David McKay.  It really is a great source of information about this stuff, slightly dated, but still relevant.  Carbon brief is also excellent in this area.

I know you’re a self appointed expert on anything you read on bit of information about TJ but you’re coming across incredibly poorly here.  We’re all on the same side remember; we all want a better and more equitable future, that doesn’t harm the environment.  EV’s aren’t without their problems, but they are a step in the right direction.

tjagain

Mainly fossil fuel – as has been explained to you but you do not want to see this.  Its extra electricity consumption which is mainly produced by fossil fuel burning.

Its false accounting to claim anything different.

Meh, I’m with Molgrips on this. The only way of looking at it that makes sense to me is looking at the overall average percentage of renewables across the entire grid.

Looking at it in terms of marginal load throws up some obvious garbage results.

For example, let’s say it’s 30th December 2022 and the grid is 100% renewable with 1KW to spare. My neighbour switches on his dishwasher and uses that last 1KW. The grid is now 100% renewable, 0% gas. I switch mine on 2 minutes later, therefore the gas turbines get spun up to meet the demand.

Using my preferred methodology, the grid and therefore both dishwashers are now 99.999999% renewable, 0.000001% gas.

Yet according to your methodology, my neighbour’s dishwasher is 100% renewable and mine is running on 100% fossil fuels.

An ICE vehicle will always run on fossil fuels.

Unless it’s running on renewables 🙂

For example, let’s say it’s 30th December 2022 and the grid is 100% renewable with 1KW to spare. My neighbour switches on his dishwasher and uses that last 1KW. The grid is now 100% renewable, 0% gas. I switch mine on 2 minutes later, therefore the gas turbines get spun up to meet the demand.

Using my preferred methodology, the grid and therefore both dishwashers are now 99.999999% renewable, 0.000001% gas.

But that’s an edge case which only occurs for a very rare instant. In that situiation I would agree that smudging together you and your neighbours usage to consider collectively would be sensible. 99.9% of the time, the marginal generation is very clear-cut, either by gas or renewables.

An enormous game changer of EVs is that they are very flexible about when they consume power, so they can wait for times when the marginal power is renewable, and gobble up all the excess. In 2024 this is still extremely rare, but it will become much more common in the future, especially on windy nights.

There is probably a really interesting stat available somewhere. How often is it the case that, if it weren’t for EVs being charged, there would be excess renewables. During those periods, I would absolutely agree that the marginal power demand of charging EVs, taken collectively, is partly renewable electricity.

How often is it the case that, if it weren’t for EVs being charged, there would be excess renewables.

It’s an incredibly pointless stat though because you could produce the same stat for anything – what if no-one was watching TV at any given time?

Also, by driving this home you undermining the idea of EVs (even if you don’t mean to) whilst acknowledging they are a better technology than ICEs.

I’m (purposefully) undermining the widespread but incorrect belief that if I have an EV and am on a green electricity tariff, then each mile I drive is practically carbon neutral, and so there is no benefit in reducing mileage.

EVs are increasing electricity demand.
This increase in demand is mainly met by fossil fuel burning.  Thats the difference between this new consumption and existing consumption.

the answer is not EVs – that answer is to stop moving people around individually in two tonne boxes.  yes that means lifestyle changes.  EVs allow people to pretend those lifestyle changes are not needed

EVs are not a significant part of the solution because they do not address this fundamental issue.  Instead they allow folk to pretend they are doing something.  Ie greenwash

1.5 degrees global warming has already happened.  2 degrees is inevitable.  3 degrees is more than likely.  fiddling around the edges will not do.  We need a fundamental shift in how we live or else we are going to see billions die in your or your childrens lifetimes

It may be an incorrect belief, but it’s less polluting than driving an ICE vehicle for that mile. It’s baby steps in the right direction.

Correct – but what we need is giant strides.  The time for baby steps was decades ago.  Baby steps will never get us up the mountain we face

Yeah we all already know this and you’ve said it a thousand times.  However, what we need is social revolution, and that’s not easy. I don’t know how to do it.

You start within yourself and work outwards from there

Heat Pumps are also going to produce massive electricity demand….the answer however isn’t to sit in cold houses.  Agreed lifestyles need to change.  Social change takes decades though…..outrage and optimism talked about this a few weeks back.

the answer however isn’t to sit in cold houses

Actually a part of it is – and massive drive on insulation.  We simply need to use a lot less energy

Social change takes decades though

We do not have decades.

You start within yourself and work outwards from there

Is that not what those who have purchased new EVs are doing? They have made a choice not to buy a new fossil fuelled vehicle, but to buy one that is measurably cleaner. Cleaner, not clean.

They in turn will pass those vehicles into the secondhand market, thereby working outwards.

It’s nigh on impossible to persuade people instead of buying a new vehicle, to buy no vehicle. So, the next best thing is to buy a cleaner one and incentivise that.

What’s your solution then? Social change takes a long time. That is a fairly well accepted empirical observation.

Maybe social change, and utilising technology for some mitigation too?

IMO – and this becomes a philosophical point we need to accept that there are no technological fixes.  the only solution is less people using less energy each worldwide

Once the problem is properly defined and that definition accepted then we can seek solutions.  Until we have an accepted realistic definition of the problems then no solutions can be found

Again IMO the technological “fixes” like EVs actually end up delaying the radical action needed as it allows people to believe they have “done their bit”

But I am very pessimistic.  Attitudes like these shown on here tell me that folk will not accept the changes needed and thus billions of deaths are inevitable.  I’ll be dead in 25 years and have no kids.  In the meantime I will live my low impact for a westerner lifestyle.  I’ve given up caring what happens after I am dead

We do not have decades.

But we dont need decades anyway.

Everyone knows we do everything important in the last five minutes 😉

You start within yourself and work outwards from there

No, I disagree.  If I go as green as is possible to be and slash my carbon footprint, very few people will take a blind bit of notice.

Attitudes like these shown on here tell me that folk will not accept the changes needed

You are confused. When we say change is difficult, we don’t mean that we don’t want to make changes. We mean that persuading the whole world to make changes is really hard. You seem to think that strongly worded forum posts are enough, but they clearly aren’t.

I agree with you 100% that we need to make huge changes. I am simply pointing out how enormously difficult that will be to achieve, on a practical level.  You can’t just stop people using cars. The global economy would be ruined in days, and we’d be starving in weeks.  Any government that tries to ban things that people need will not be voted back in. We need a plan that will move us to a better world without ruining it, and that requires a strong competent and committed government.  You coming on here and bellyaching doesn’t achieve anything, as I’m sure you know.

I’m not pointing these things out because I don’t want major change – I do. I am trying to tell you where the problems lie because you don’t seem to realise.

Oh I do realise the problems.  Individuals and governments worldwide are burying their heads in the sand.  And yes – these threads do show that folk will not make the changes needed.  Thus we are fubar as a race.

IMO – and this becomes a philosophical point we need to accept that there are no technological fixes.

In a world of sweeping statements that is fairly bold even for you!! 🤣

Agreed we need to use less energy, resource….I’m an anti capitalist and subscribe to a post growth economic standpoint.  Less people…..not even going there. You’re a dark green yeah? I find the depopulation arguements just about the most problematic part of green politics. I’m far from being alone on that either.

Yup I’m a dark green – tho an imperfect one 🙂  I have always lived within muscle power of work, I have no kids and no pets and no car, I very rarely buy new stuff and have been roundly mocked on here for adhering to that lifestyle – and still my lifestyle is unsustainable

@tjagain

Apart from the time when you commuted by motorbike to Tranent and then bought a Scooter to do the commute.

and have been roundly mocked on here for adhering to that lifestyle

That’s not why we mock you!

these threads do show that folk will not make the changes needed

The issue is that people get trapped.  We try to point this out, but you mistake it for refusal.  Life is a lot more complex than you understand.

Anyway. How much ved will I be paying on my ev in the future?

Anyway. How much ved will I be paying on my ev in the future?

You’d get a pretty good idea by clicking the link in the first post on this thread 🙂

Oh – I had forgotten that job bikepawl.  a few months in 40 odd years.  good memory you have 🙂

Molgrips – oh yes I have been mocked for my lifestyle and yes the attitudes here show a refusal to even consider the changes needed.

The issue is that people get trapped. We try to point this out, but you mistake it for refusal.

It is refusal – I could go thru the thread and find many examples – one person stating he would never live in a city so has to have a car to commute.  Thats a refusal.  another stating he will never give up his car.  etc etc

That’s what happens when you try to rewrite your past to make yourself  look more green. And I would also count all those times you used your motorbike or the scooter when you where technically within cycling distance.

one person stating he would never live in a city so has to have a car to commute.  Thats a refusal.

He sounds like a switched on chap. Living in city’s is mentally draining. I’ve been there.  Would rather go by foot for the 10 miles to work than have to live in other people’s space and live in constant light and noise pollution.

It’s the kids that mean I need a car at the moment. Availability of child care is poor and wide spread. I have two infants at different (private care) across two different villages  because there is no capacity to get them into a single facility despite registering the youngest before he was born.

Anyway. How much ved will I be paying on my ev in the future?
You’d get a pretty good idea by clicking the link in the first post on this thread 🙂

Looks like lots of newer sub 10 year old cars will now be paying tax?

If anything the new tax on previously zero rated ice cars will encourage the uptake of EVs? If they can be charged at home or cheaper than the increasing cost of petrol or diesel?

Surely the green thing to do is carry on driving your 10 year old Ice engined vehicle rather than buy a new one. I wonder how many miles it takes to offer the energy and materials of a new car v trundling around in an existing car?

At the moment replacing ice cars with electric ones is very cheap if you get a company car. The result is many companies, mine included, are stopping paying car allowances and giving cars instead. I will end up with an ev that I don’t really want and have an ice car to dispose of for no good reason

one person stating he would never live in a city so has to have a car to commute

Sure, you could just blame that person. Maybe they are to blame. But maybe their workplace is in a crap location and there are no houses available on public transport routes. The solution to that is not just to blame that person, it’s making better public transport, or work out another solution that doesn’t need travelling if possible.  We simply cannot all live next to where we work – that is just not possible.  But what we can do is reduce the travelling required, and make that travel more sustainable.  There are so many things that a government could do to improve matters.  That’s why I blame the government, not the individuals.

There’s actually a fairly significant amount of time now when wind farms are paid not to generate so the marginal electricity is renewable. This expected to become more of an issue for next decade or so. So if you charge an EV overnight and at lowest cost times if you have a suitable tariff it will most likely be renewable electricity. More tariffs will appear for this. Apps showing live grid generation mix are available too so easy enough to see what is happening.

I wonder how many miles it takes to offer the energy and materials of a new car v trundling around in an existing car?

13,500 miles according to Reuters. Other models give 15000 – 20000 miles. There is one model that predicts 700,000 miles, but it’s developed by the oil and gas industry.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

Ooh, I just calculated how much CO2 your recent holiday produced TJ 😆

I wonder how many miles it takes to offer the energy and materials of a new car v trundling around in an existing car?

Also bear in mind that sometimes cars do need replacing. We only got an EV because the old Prius got crashed. We’d still be driving that if it hadn’t.