No more Zero vehicle band tax on electric cars

The point is that just because the electricity currently being generated is 50% renewable, it absolutely does not mean that if we needed to generate an additional 10kw, it would also be 50% renewable

Right, but my point is that you don’t say ‘I need to charge my car now, so give me power’ and it turns up a gas power station.  I plug it in and say ‘I want it at 80% by 7am’ and it chooses when to charge.  So whenever the wind picks up, I get charge.

Unsure when the VED rules changed last but there was some point where I had to pay the ‘luxury car tax’ VED amount for my Model S in 2018-2022. Like folks say, a small fraction of TCO. And I got all my supercharging at no cost back then.

Sadly for irate motorists, VED doesn’t directly pay for roads and road maintenance. It’s just swallowed up in the government coffers. With the real terms drop of ~40% in central government contributions to councils since the coalition more of the road budget is coming out of council tax.

Shame they didn’t also address the long-abandoned fuel escalator and ongoing subsidy of big oil.

this change in VED and rollback of reforms are more signs of this being an election year. No problem, I’ll remember the brand of government that has put us where we are now.

I plug it in and say ‘I want it at 80% by 7am’ and it chooses when to charge. So whenever the wind picks up, I get charge.

The trouble is its not a few hours that there is no spare renewables – it can be days or weeks,

I plug it in and say ‘I want it at 80% by 7am’ and it chooses when to charge.  So whenever the wind picks up, I get charge.

But as I understand it, it is incredibly rare for there to be so much wind that it is not necessary to top it up by gas. Like a handful of times per year. Definitely not every night, even for a few seconds.

Even if you charge you car right now, at peak demand time (because you’re an idiot) the carbon emissions running your car is far lower than using a straight ICE engine, or even the most efficient lightweight hybrid. Do what molgrips does, and the carbon emissions are lower still. In the next few years they’ll improve year on year. Makes a new car purchase a no brainer… buy electric if you want lower emissions in use. I won’t be buying one though… I’m no evangelist… I’ll be on old ICE cars all my life I suspect… that doesn’t change the truth. Using electric cars results in lower emissions than using ICE cars, even given our current energy mix, even if you don’t charge it in a sensible fashion. It’s all going to get better in the near future for electric cars as well, something we ICE cars users need to acknowledge.

the carbon emissions running your car is far lower than using an straight ICE engine, or the most efficient lightweight hybrid.

I did some very rough maths on the last page which I am happy to have holes picked in. It’s only about 25% lower.

Is 100% renewable grid possible? This chap thinks so https://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/2024/04/10/is-a-100-renewable-energy-grid-possible/

It’s only about 25% lower.

Hmm… “only” 25% if pretending all the energy comes from gas, and cherry picking the best possible hybrid … that’s the worst and best possible situations compared, a very disingenuous comparison, and still you’re looking at a 25% saving … using real world average electric and ICE vehicles, and real charging and generation scenerios, gets you to a 60% plus saving in the UK (already higher than 70% across many European countries)… and that’s before we improve the grid and increase renewable production.

If I was buying a new car, and interested in emissions, a worst case day one scenario of saving 25% emission would still be a no brainier… even if that was all that was likely (and it is not). As I said though, I expect never to own an electric car myself… but I’m not joining in with the disinformation to try and make myself feel better. I’ll just do what everyone should do… use my old car as little as possible.

Exactly the same luxury car tax as a Rolls Royce then. Do you recon a Rolls Royce owner would consider a Golf luxurious?

This is up there with Buck House paying less Council Tax than a band D in Liverpool. Please don’t normalise absurdity.

No, stuff like RR etc should be charged even more. A percentage of list price tax instead of a fixed amount would have been more appropriate. You could call it super VAT if you like. Though if you can afford a RR or similar the likelihood is even £10,000 more is tax won’t be a sticking point.  The other thing to consider there is that vehicles like that make a tiny fraction of new vehicles. Probably rate in the small percent of total sales of the current BMW/Audi/Merc knob tank.

a very disingenuous comparison,

My whole point is that at present it is entirely correct and reasonable to assume that the energy will be produced by burning gas.

FWIW I took the numbers for the most efficient type of gas power station listed, so that is in favour of the EV.

Ford focus was just the first car that came to mind, not cherry picked.

Even when burning only gas, there’s still a significant saving in emissions. Savings that increase with variable loading and demand balancing, and will increase further as more renewables come online (here in the UK and via interconnects to Norway etc). If one accepts 25% as a current day situation (I don’t, it’s poppycock) then that is still a strong argument for making your new car an electric car

I wonder how many people would live in rural communities if they weren’t being subsidised by city dwellers?

I wonder where our food would come from if people didn’t live in rural communities.

will increase further as more renewables come online

Completely agree with that, it will be a no-brainer one day.

that is still a strong argument for making your new car an electric car

Fair, I can’t argue that emissions per mile are indeed lower and even 25% is not to be sniffed at. Especially applicable for high annual mileage.

If one accepts 25% as a current day situation (I don’t, it’s poppycock)

Still keen to hear a rebuttal about the gas thing rather than just being told “it isn’t that simple”. Like I said, happy to read an article.

I wonder where our food would come from if people didn’t live in rural communities.

Farms. Most people who live in rural communities aren’t involved in farming or food production.

Suburbia and rural communities are massively subsidised.

Winter high pressure event.  Minimal wind generation for days or even weeks

Wish it was, seemed to be blowing a gale all through the last 6 months 🙂

“A dirty diesel spewing pollution ends up less than an EV producing nothing.”

And THAT is the biggest falecy of the lot.  Clean at the tailpipe, yes. Clean overall ? Hardly.  With (as of today) 46% of generation being from burning gas, + some from overseas connections (with undetermined mixes or power source), and the losses from turning gas to electricity then transmitting it then charging the car, the C02 emitted overall is not that much different.  Just emitted out of you immediate sight.

Then they are typically heavier = more tyre wear (=pollution) and road wear (= pollution), and the process of getting the materials for the batteries themselves is immensely dirty.

And at that point I’m off to walk my year old fox red Land Cruiser.

robertajob – Actually the emissions will be lower overall. by 50% ish I believe.

You did forget the reduced marginal cost per mile tho with EVs that actually leads to them being used more for short journeys according to one bit of research

The suggestion that EV power is 100% fossil fuel is a fallacy.  The grid mix is say 50% renewable. If you allocate the fossil fuel part to the EV, then that surely means that the other things are now being powered renewably?  I don’t think you can separate the two like this.

You are suggesting that if a car were not charged then a gas power station would be turned down – but I don’t think this is the case, because things running overnight – factories, hospitals etc – need constant power and therefore cannot rely solely on renewables; but EV charging does not need constant power.

I did some very rough maths on the last page which I am happy to have holes picked in.

• You forgot to convert the manufacturer’s g/km figures in to g/mile.
• Most people don’t achieve those manufacturer’s figures – anywhere near – in their ICE but 4 miles/kWh is entirely reasonable for an EV (I am averaging 4.8 in total and our daily commute sees over 5).
• You ignored the energy required to extract the oil, ship it to a refinery and turn it into petrol and diesel.

People are also over looking the opportunity to generate at home, when we buy our next car I’m hoping it will be EV and I will seriously considering solar and batteries for the house. We need to think about more distributed generation as the grid is seriously lacking in capacity for the future. Generating some of the power EVs need at home helps reduce this and we have ridiculous amounts of roof space that could be used for solar generation.

You are suggesting that if a car were not charged then a gas power station would be turned down – but I don’t think this is the case, because things running overnight – factories, hospitals etc – need constant power and therefore cannot rely solely on renewables; but EV charging does not need constant power.

Like I said it is incredibly rare that renewables generate all the electricity we need, they are pretty much always topped up by gas.

Suppose I had used a bit less power last night (or didn’t need to charge my hypothetical EV). Would the UK have generated any less wind energy? No. Any less solar? No. It would have burned less gas. Even if I had been selective in when I used (or didnt use) electricity.

You forgot to convert the manufacturer’s g/km figures in to g/mile.

Ahh yeah fair point I’ll take that back.

You ignored the energy required to extract the oil, ship it to a refinery and turn it into petrol and diesel.

I acknowledged that, I also ignored the energy in extracting and transporting gas, losses during trasmitting across the grid and battery charging. And probably a load of other stuff too.

The nice people at CarbonBrief have done some fact checking aon all the ‘EVs are just as polluting as ICE claims (among others).

Factcheck: 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles

They’ve got actual sources and real calculations and not just ‘sometimes it’s not very windy’ and I urge everyone to actually read some of their very clear reporting.

Suppose I had used a bit less power last night (or didn’t need to charge my hypothetical EV). Would the UK have generated any less wind energy? No. Any less solar? No. It would have burned less gas

I’m not sure it’s that simple.  But even if it were, it’s a pointless argument.  In April there was an hour where we generated 97.5% of our electricity without fossil fuels.  That kind of event is going to become much more frequent.  We have loads of wind and solar generation going in all the time.  This time next year, my car (or its counterpart in some other application, if you want) will emit less CO2, and the following year less still.  And to gain these benefits I won’t have to change my car or do anything to it.  We can’t have a transport sector using renewable energy without EVs.  And if people like me don’t buy EVs, manufacturers will not make them.

Of course, we know that the true answer is not to have cars, but until that time comes, EVs are significantly better than ICEs and will become more so.

Like I said it is incredibly rare that renewables generate all the electricity we need, they are pretty much always topped up by gas.

For now. But that time is coming.  As for storage – there is about 150GWh in various stages of planning.  And of course, EVs are also mobile energy storage.

Suppose I had used a bit less power last night (or didn’t need to charge my hypothetical EV). Would the UK have generated any less wind energy? No. Any less solar? No. It would have burned less gas. Even if I had been selective in when I used (or didnt use) electricity.

But can’t you apply that argument to any user? I decided not to cook my dinner last night – so the gas power station wasn’t turned on.  So cooking can’t be said to benefit from renewable energy. The local factory cancelled a shift. Ditto. Etc etc etc. So who does benefit?

Isn’t it more the case that the power company buys in energy from a mix of sources according to what they predict the load to be, whether it’s cars or meat pies cooking, or tin can manufacture? And then if there are fluctuations away from what was predicted then gas is the marginal source as you say. I’m not an electricity company, so I don’t know exactly how they do stuff – but that’s my guess.

And of course, EVs are also mobile energy storage.

A guy was round looking at our solar panels the other week and trying to interest me in buying a battery. £5K for 3kWh. Considering I have a 64kWh battery sitting on my driveway, that made no sense whatsover!!

Considering I have a 64kWh battery sitting on my driveway, that made no sense whatsover!!

The French scheme with the Renault Five is interesting… not just using the car battery to shift energy demand in the home, but across the local grid as a whole. Those cars on that scheme will help doubly when it comes to shifting energy use to renewables… they’ll end up meaning that less fossil fuels as a whole will be burnt than if they didn’t exist… they won’t just mean less compared to using an ICE car… but less than if no car was at those households. That’s mind boggling and totally unintuitive.

[ simple version … V2G (vehicle to grid) uses all those car batteries as a distributed storage system for the grid, not just for each home, allowing peak to off peak demand shifting both for the grid and for energy generation ]

I’m not trying to imply that EVs will never be beneficial. They obviously will be an incredible asset in the future to providing low carbon travel, and smooth grid demand so that we can get the most out of renewables and reduce the requirement for fossil fuels. In the meantime, while the marginal method of power generation in the UK is almost always gas, the case is less strong. Perhaps still very convincing if you need to do a lot of miles.

I bought solar panels rather than an EV. I also dont drive that much so the EV would have been a waste of money anway.

£5K for 3kWh

You can get about 20kWh of old Nissan Leaf for that and now you can use it to power your home too. And you can still drive it.

You can get about 20kWh of old Nissan Leaf  for that

Tricky to get up into my loft though 🙂 🙂 🙂

In the meantime, while the marginal method of power generation in the UK is almost always gas, the case is less strong.

But if we don’t buy them now no-one will be able to buy them in the future.

Perhaps still very convincing if you need to do a lot of miles.

You don’t need to do that many. It’s still much much cheaper (if you can charge at home) to drive an EV. It costs us about a tenth the cost of a diesel per mile for my wife to drive to work. And probably an extra couple of k on the purchase price.

And let’s not forget the benefits for local air quality.

Oh and they are much better to drive.

I’m not sure it’s that simple.

It is that simple molgrips – when renewables are maxed out then any increase in consumption comes from gas – thats how the grid works.  Renewables are maxed out most of the time. gsasd is used top cover shortfalls in generation

What other source do you think the electricity comes from?  Nuclear is less responsive and usually also maxed out.  Pump storage can do some of it.  Otherwise its gas coal or diesel .  that increased demand has to be filled from somewhere

But can’t you apply that argument to any user? I decided not to cook my dinner last night – so the gas power station wasn’t turned on.  So cooking can’t be said to benefit from renewable energy. The local factory cancelled a shift. Ditto. Etc etc etc. So who does benefit?

Yes, you can apply it to any user. Most of the time, every kwh that you dont use is one kwh less gas generation. This will continue to be the case until we generate enough renewable power such that we dont need to top up with gas.

I wish this was appreciated more widely!

YOu get all of those benefits and more from reducing car useage

Pump storage can do some of it.

Car batteries can also do some of it.

Yes, you can apply it to any user. Most of the time, every kwh that you dont use is one kwh less gas generation. This will continue to be the case until we generate enough renewable power such that we dont need to top up with gas.

My point was actually something different. If you are saying that every user should be counted as contributing 100% to has burning, then my question is who is using all that green energy? Not EV owners (in your argument). Not cooks. Not factories. So who? You end up with a contradiction.

YOu get all of those benefits and more from reducing car useage

Yes we’ve been over this before. We need to dramatically reduce car usage, AND make sure the remaining usage is powered by renewable electricity. Both things.

Most of the time, every kwh that you dont use is one kwh less gas generation.

But don’t forget that every kWh of electricity you put in your car is half a litre of diesel you didn’t burn.

It is that simple molgrips – when renewables are maxed out then any increase in consumption comes from gas – thats how the grid works.  Renewables are maxed out most of the time. gsasd is used top cover shortfalls in generation

its not that simple because the guy at the power station doesn’t light up another burner when moly charges his car. He’s already contracted a load of energy from a variety of sources to account for moly and thousands of others charging their cars, cooking their dinners and washing their socks.

This time next year, my car (or its counterpart in some other application, if you want) will emit less CO2, and the following year less still. And to gain these benefits I won’t have to change my car or do anything to it

I’m not sure that’s true either. Whilst the marginal input to the grid is still fossil fueled, the impact of you charging your car on a given night is still the same. The overall mix changes, sure, but until that mix is extreme enough that no fossil is being burned on a regular basis (unlikely in the next 5 years), the source for your car is still gas. Even when there is excess renewable capacity, if that capacity can offset fossil fuel at a later date (ie through pumping), your use is still effectively mostly co2 generating (it’s complicated due to losses in pumping).

The mix is getting greener. The marginal use is not.