No more Zero vehicle band tax on electric cars

>> That’s one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich.

All relative, innit? It’s got to be affordable for someone, and there needs to be an incentive for the first owners. If a consultant takes one of these on salary sacrifice as an alternative to going part-time or even retiring early, then there’s a wider benefit.

Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.

grimep
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.

My i3S driven between home on outskirts of medium-sized ish rural town and small-sized rural town for the commute disagrees.

Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.

I’ve didn’t see those threads. Did you imagine them?

Agree with your main point though… tax breaks for new EVs are obviously going to go to people who can afford new cars. Same goes for heat pumps, home energy generation, etc. At first you need to get the new spend going in the right direction via tax breaks for those who can afford the spend… and further down the line, when markets for lower emission products are more established, then use regulations to complete the transition (and that’s when the focus of subsidies should switch to those who can’t afford to replace old with new).

Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.

This thread is about removing a tax breaks only available to the wealthy. It’s unlikely to turn into your made up thread.

I’ve had an EV for almost 10 years – it was an ex demo Leaf which was silly cheap as people didn’t want them in 2015!

Done almost 100k in it with no problems except its limited range which I knew about before purchase. No road tax until this year when its being retrospectively altered, I think the first time thats ever happened to an existing vehicle.

Time to chop it in now as its getting a bit shonky mechanically (not electrically) and I suspect it will start costing me money – its not built very well.

I’ll almost certainly get a small/medium petrol runabout as you’d have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now – the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful and we all know that its just greenwash really as far as the environment is concerned. The only way to drive green is to drive less and to buy fewer cars and run them for as long as possible. Rusty Nissan Prairie’s Cayenne is probably ‘greener (stupid phrase)’ than 75% of the EVs on the road today given the age of the car, its potential lifespan and how many miles he drives it!

That Cayenne is awesome. Buying a new one though would be an odd move.

EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.

Good thing 85% of the UK population is urbanised then. And it’s not like the other 15% are living in the middle of the Gobi Desert.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/270369/urbanization-in-the-united-kingdom/

Of course there’s always someone that claims they need to regularly tow a horsebox full of iron scrap from John O Groats to Lands End twice a week…

Most folk living in cities do not need a car at all or only occasionally.  Car clubs are the way forward in cities.

I just read an interesting stat. 19% of Irelands emissions are from fuel combustion engines. I wonder what the make up of this is, cars, HGV, Buses, farm and construction machinery etc. If cars are half this, say 10%, then even if we got half our cars to be EVs it would only lead to a 5% drop in emissions (I know, I know all you pedants will say it’s not a 5% drop as we need to build and charge EVs). Makes me think we are goosed unless there are other huge changes elsewhere. It’s not just about cars.

you’d have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now – the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful

I disagree with all of that. My EV was barely more to buy than an equivalent petrol ar £12k (I think it was actually cheaper than the hybrid version of the same car), it saves me £80 a month on fuel, they are very reliable cars and the depreciation is great for used buyers. Ad for the infrastructure – nothing wrong with rapid charging, I wouldn’t hesitate to drive it on a long trip.

Rusty Nissan Prairie’s Cayenne is probably ‘greener (stupid phrase)’ than 75% of the EVs on the road today given the age of the car

Umm it was new once, likewise new EVs now will become old…

My EV was barely more to buy than an equivalent petrol ar £12k

Oh did you buy a different one to the high milage one you were conflicted about and posted the thread about ?

Yes.

Just did another search, looks like the diesels are £12-13k now and the EVs are £10k. Same age age, mileage and spec.

”I’ll almost certainly get a small/medium petrol runabout as you’d have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now – the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful and we all know that its just greenwash really as far as the environment is concerned. ”

Looks like I’ve been lucky with the most reliable car I’ve ever owned with overall cost of ownership being smaller than anything else comparable as well, and all powered with hydro power .  Youtube and the Telegraph have rotted your mind

Its not all powered by hydro power – you can argue its the average mix or as I believe you should its powered by the gas reserve as its increased electricity consumption which mainly comes from gas but there is no way yo9u can argue its all powered by hydro power as hydro is such a small part of the mix

If cars are half this, say 10%, then even if we got half our cars to be EVs it would only lead to a 5% drop in emissions

1) it would only be 5% drop if 100% of the electricity used to power the cars was renewable

2) EVs aren’t only about reducing carbon emissions – it’s also about air quality and improving efficiency

3) but we’re not gonna un-**** ourselves out of this situation by buying more cars.

all powered with hydro power

I’m not taking the bait

I just read an interesting stat. 19% of Irelands emissions are from fuel combustion engines.

I’d imagine there will be a lot of boilers (industrial and domestic) plus power generation contributing to the rest.

Most folk living in cities do not need a car at all or only occasionally.

Fantasy land.

Car clubs are the way forward in cities.

And are these strangers safe to travel with ?

My 2p worth as I’ve been mentioned upthread – one of the reasons I run older cars is the technology needed to make inherently dirty engines run cleaner from circa 2006 onwards cars causes no end of hassles for a DIY tinkerer (adblue, DPF, EGR etc).

My personal aim was to keep my older cars running long enough that EV’s drop down to bangernomics level. Nissan Leafs are at that point now and will join the fleet should one of mine catastrophicly fail.

As a petrolhead and engineer I think an internal combustion engine is such a massively over complex flawed solution when some batteries and motor can achieve a similar result and I look forward to simpler EV ownership. At the very least no more oil changes and having to correctly dispose of cancerous used oil. No more changing spark plugs and hoping you don’t cross the threads, no more landfill of used filters etc etc.

The best way to run an EV must be small, light with appropriate race but go all in so that you can charge the thing from your own solar source on the roof of your house with the option to run the house off the car at night….

Overall, a big investment but once its done you must be looking at energy independence, Shirley….

Thinking about this, would it be possible to get an old car battery pack from an EV for home use as energy storage or are there move cost effective ways?

^ EV battery packs can and do have a 2nd life as home storage.

For this reason (and commercial ICE to EV converters ) used batteries are still commanding high values from crashed damaged cars. I’ve looked into converting a couple of my cars but the cost is still too high.

And are these strangers safe to travel with ?

You obviously have no idea what a car club is.  Its short term rentals – ie by the minute.  Hundreds of cars scattered around the city that you book online

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/public-transport/enterprise-car-club

the majority of journeys in cities are not done by car.

Not sure if it was this thread that mentioned bearings and motor alignment.

This is not rocket science, it’s a fact of life of running a motor with a shaft coupling and is as easy as just shimming it and checking the faces align.

I said years ago bearings would be an issue (no maintenance my arse) but it shouldnt be a big deal, no harder than any other bearing change but you can be sure manufacturers will invent stupid tools to keep it in house where possible.

Everything can be DIY’d, it’s the software that’s going to be the main hurdle. If you replace sensors and such you need to be able to run calibration checks. I can see custom ECUs or ROM chips like you get on consoles being a way to get round this.

you must be looking at energy independence, Shirley….

It’s achievable now with money and a great idea, but I don’t think it’s essential for the value proposition of EVs.

no maintenance my arse

This refers to the regular preventative maintenance, not repairs; but that’s still not zero. Cabin filter, brake fluid and reduction gear oil, plus battery/motor coolant on mine.

Bearings do fail obvs but it’s a very high mileage part.

In terms of sensor calibration, it’s an interesting question. The main thing everyone talks about is cell health and I don’t know if those voltage sensors are part of the pack or the car. I’m guessing you’d replace the BMS module as one.

I do wonder if manufacturers are keen on EVs because long term the supply chain must be so much simpler.

You obviously have no idea what a car club is.  Its short term rentals – ie by the minute.  Hundreds of cars scattered around the city that you book online

I know a chap in Edinburgh who tried to live with those. The number of times he turned up to dangerous vehicles or even on occasion vehicles that just simply weren’t there. But most of all. He would turn up and they would be utterly disgusting inside. – talking twice a week usage for broken home family reasons.

He bought a car after 6 months

whats the breakeven ? my father just had solar installed and he said its 10 to 12 years. probably ok if you are retired with no intenion of moving, but a big chunk of cash up front

we went down to a single car with a view of short term renting when we needed a second. its not just not viable in the city we are in. the cost and the faff compeletly outweighs the benefit of being able to take one boy to cubs and the other to swimming lessons (for instance as a use case)

plus looking at larger vehicles for say a weeks camp in devon is ruinously expensive and would make a week in the uk simialr prices to a week in majorca.

I cant see car ownership disappearing any time soon, least for families. Young single professions in cities maybe…

We were lining up to buy a cheap second hand electric car for our city run around and a much larger suv style for weekend and trips. But the cost of everything is just silly at the moment so we are sticking with our 10 year old sportage.

extra tax cost is just another thing that adds to thr reasons not to

Totally the opposite of mine and my friends experiences with the car club trail rat.

Totally the opposite of mine and my friends

Maybe a leith thing. Gentrification. Effects all.

He’s out past Davidson’s mains.

This refers to the regular preventative maintenance, not repairs

Bearings are a PM part. If you don’t keep on top of greasing how do you expect them to last? They’re the one part of a motor you can’t engineer your way out of and the weakest part.

Just because you don’t look at a CV joint or hub bearing until it’s buggered doesn’t mean you can’t maintain them. It’s just made more difficult with modern “sealed” throwaway units. Look at a tractor or any industrial machine and you’ll see all moving parts have grease ports.

Hmmm – I might be wrong but I don’t think that EV motor or gearbox bearings are typically designed as a maintainable part – they’re fit for life. Easily achievable by specifying the right parts and designing properly. Compared to industrial machines they will have a very easy life.

A bit like gearbox bearing / bushings on an ICE gearbox – they’re not designed to need maintenance but can be replaced if problems arise.

VED raised £7.4 billion in 2022/23. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that this figure will increase to £9.4 billion by 2027/28.19 Dec 2023
<h6>Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) – The House of Commons LibraryThe House of Commons Libraryhttps://commonslibrary.parliament.uk › research-briefings</h6>

Revenue expenditure and fundingIn 2022/23, local authority road maintenance expenditure was £4.5 billion. Of this, £2.7 billion was spent on structural treatment, £1.3 billion on routine and other treatment and £0.5 billion was spent on highways maintenance policy, planning and strategy.7 Mar 2024
<h6>Potholes and local road maintenance fundingThe House of Commons Libraryhttps://commonslibrary.parliament.uk › cbp-9975</h6>

Doesn’t quite match the argument that car drivers aren’t ‘paying their way’ and are being subsided on road maintenance by others.

It was always going to happen.. The transition from ICE to electrical would leave a massive hole in government tax income…

As I see it, any government would have to raise tax elsewhere or start taxing EVs a lot to make up the shortfall.

northersouth – thats because the amount spent on roads is only a small fraction of the total costs of motoring:

All the deaths and disabilities caused including the loss of earnings of those people

All the damage to buildings,

The cost of motoring law enforcement

The cost of the diseases of inactivity

The lost value of all the public land used for parking

Etc etc

The true cost of motoring if borne by the motorist would be 2 or 3 times what you pay now

Yep. Note that VED and fuel duty plus the VAT on it are not ring fenced, rathe they just make up part of the overall tax take.

So the hole left by fuel duty and VAT on fuel sale will have to be taken from somewhere else. I doubt that VED or sale related taxes could be raised high enough to make up for it, so the only options are to accept the lower tax take (cut spending), work out a replacement fuel/usage tax (tax transport use electricity or have a mileage based tax) or increase other tax sources – VAT, income tax etc.

Of those options I can only see adding a mileage based tax as being remotely sellable as “fair”, especially with a mixed population of ICE and EVs. So I do think that mileage based taxation will likely be coming our way/ maybe in about 5-7 year time ish?

Doesn’t quite match the argument that car drivers aren’t ‘paying their way’ and are being subsided on road maintenance by others.

Your £4.5bn figure is for local authority roads maintenance …in England only…excluding London! It doesn’t include the roads that are maintained by central government eg National Highways (which, confusingly, is England only) budget was £4.8bn alone in 2022-2023. The figure also doesn’t include new road construction spending or any of the other externalities of car usage.

The VED figure on the other hand is for all VED everywhere in the UK.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/monitoring-and-regulation/roads-monitoring/annual-assessment-national-highways/2023/annex-a

Vehicle excise duty

All the deaths and disabilities caused including the loss of earnings of those people

All the damage to buildings,

The cost of motoring law enforcement

The cost of the diseases of inactivity

The lost value of all the public land used for parking

Etc etc

The true cost of motoring if borne by the motorist would be 2 or 3 times what you pay now

You peddle this again and again like you’ve worked the numbers. I’m challenging you to provide actual numbers (rather than TJ facts) here otherwise we should dismiss you as a stopped clock.

I know a chap in Edinburgh who tried to live with those. The number of times he turned up to dangerous vehicles or even on occasion vehicles that just simply weren’t there. But most of all. He would turn up and they would be utterly disgusting inside. – talking twice a week usage for broken home family reasons.

They’re in many cities round here. I’ve been involved (on the car side) in two of the current clubs in Goteborg. Cars are cleaned and maintained regularly, most have dedicated club spots, with chargers if they are EV. Flagging a dirty or dangerous car takes 30-60 seconds and in most cases they’ll assign you another car within a 3-5 minute walk (or even the next parking space). Or a refund and compensation.

If i lived in the city, i’d be a member.

EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.

Hardly, look at actual usage of actual cars in actual cities, the vast majority of people would be better served by not having one anyway. And i live in the middle of nowhere and of my handful of neighbours about a third are on PHEVs and maybe a quarter are on EVs.

And yes, new cars are expensive. No question.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/298667/united-kingdom-uk-public-sector-expenditure-national-roads/

Cost of supplying and maintaining roads in the UK, never mind all the other externalities, is over £11 billion a year.

As an aside: VED after the first year has always been a tiny slice of the total cost of private car ownership. That’s why it’s been weird to see people lured into buying or selling cars worth thousands of pounds because they can save £50 on the tax disc.