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NHS Privitisation is coming
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noteethFree Member
Funny how those interests which are keen to see the end of the NHS are often those which have benefited from NHS workforce training (not to mention proximity to NHS critical care facilities…).
Not that they tend to talk about that side of things in the marketing, of course.
grantwayFree MemberStoatsbrother – Member
I live 6 miles from the Sea. I am sure you must do too. Have you checked?Sorry fella 1 mile to the Thames for me 😉
grantwayFree Membergrantway – Member
Stoatsbrother Grantway – trust me I know it isn’t. It could have saved me making regular formal complaints on behalf of patients.Trust me go via a Doctor and you just seem to have no chance having Physio.
My Doctor told me if he made an appointment il wait a year so I self referred
and waited 2 days ?projectFree MemberThe NHS, would function much better wityhout patients being ill.
lol
StoatsbrotherFree MemberOK Grantway. I worked with the local physio department on designing their forms, providing web based info on their services and referral criteria, and the same for the new additional service from a private provider. I know that they refuse self referrals.
Used to live in E14 (before the Yuppies arrived) and then E3 myself.
grantwayFree MemberI know that they refuse self referrals.
But they don’t?Used to live in E14 (before the Yuppies arrived) and then E3 myself.
Thanks for that. But born in Plaistow and lived in E3 Mile end and Bromley by bow for about 27 years
and now in East Ham E6 for several years.StoatsbrotherFree MemberNice for you. Down on the sarf coast we seem a bit behind the times…
konabunnyFree MemberAs its a private physio,they would need to pay buisness rates and insurance,heating etc, all things the NHS DOESNT HAVE TO PAY.
Errrm you are so wrong this all comes out of the Estates & Facilities budget.
But the hospital is there if there are patients or not, the heating is on etc etc, its all there ,before the first patient arrives, so its just pretend figures on pages
Errrm, no – buildings aren’t just fixed cost bonary things that you either have or don’t. You can use space in lots of different ways depending on what’s efficient.
French or latin. Which is more pretentious?
Zingggggg!
TandemJeremyFree MemberSo stoatsbrother where is you private facility getting its physios from? NHS trained physios? there is a huge subsidy as it does not have to train its staff. Seniority? terms and conditions of employment? Research?
TandemJeremyFree MemberStoatsbrother – Member
Nice for you. Down on the sarf coast we seem a bit behind the times…
Clearly.
grantwayFree MemberStoatsbrother – Member
Nice for you. Down on the sarf coast we seem a bit behind the times…Obviously This PCT got it right and without Private intervention and non Private funding.
So shouldn’t you be contacting NHS Newham to find out how they done this instead of waisting
money on the Private sector ?konabunnyFree Memberwhere is you private facility getting its physios from? NHS trained physios? there is a huge subsidy as it does not have to train its staff.
So what? GPs and dentists are private businesspeople trained at public expense. In fact, inasmuch as most British people’s education is subsidised by the government, most British people are educated and trained at public expense.
Besides, trainees are paid less than a fully-qualified professional precisely because part of their remuneration comes in the form of training.
Seniority? terms and conditions of employment?
Such things exist in the private sector too. By the way, you’ll notice you’ve now changed subjects from whether the private sector is more efficient to whether private sector employees are as well-paid as public sector ones.
StoatsbrotherFree MemberG I’m guessing they did it by having a cooperative management team on the Trust side – based on the way our trust has sandbagged negotiations – and continues to do so in other services. And this is because we are next to the sea it means we have less competition around, no other acute trusts for 20 miles, so they can get away with it. Which is why we have to bring in other providers to get an alternative. If there was Wiggle and no other bike shop would the prices be as cheap and the service as fast?
TJ That’s about your first decent point, but made better previously by someone else. I see you are still not acknowledging the way Labour had totally got into bed with the private health sector. This is where your political stance seems to blind you. 😉
mcbooFree MemberThe bike industry comparison is a good one. Imagine there was no Merlin/CRC/Wiggle/eBay/Canyon/On-One/STW Classifieds. Just a bike shop in every town owned by the government and staffed by TJ.
CaptainFlashheartFree Membermcboo – Member
The bike industry comparison is a good one. Imagine there was no Merlin/CRC/Wiggle/eBay/Canyon/On-One/STW Classifieds. Just a bike shop in every town owned by the government and staffed by TJ.That’s exactly the sort of socialist utopia TJ et al dream about. No point letting the hoi polloi have a choice or an opinionm, when those who are better than them could, and should control all of their lives…
Four legs good…..
binnersFull MemberJust a bike shop in every town owned by the government and staffed by TJ.
😯
Where the hell would anyone buy a helmet?! Or anything with a really nice logo?
mcbooFree MemberRemember all those bike shops you used to walk into where you could FEEL the bottomless pit of bad attitude from the staff? My LBS used to be like that until exactly the week a nice shiny Evans opened up round the corner. All smiles and offers of deals now.
mcbooFree MemberI try not to go to Evans either. The point is I can use the LBS and not feel like a chump because I now have a choice and they know it…..
AdamWFree MemberFair enough. I bought my Trek from Evans. They were the only ones to have it in. Leisurelakes were less than useless.
I hated every second of Evans, from being insulted at the door (mistaken identity) to shop assistants being worse than those in Dixons to wanting to just sell me the damned thing so they could sell more trailers and stuff to other shoppers.
Never again. It was like having a poo sandwich, with no marge.
RustySpannerFull MemberThat’s exactly the sort of socialist utopia TJ et al dream about. No point letting the hoi polloi have a choice or an opinionm, when those who are better than them could, and should control all of their lives…
Choice is an illusion.
I’d rather have one bike shop that stocked what I want, rather than 1000 shiny suited shysters telling me what I need. 😀
mcbooFree Member“Choice is an illusion.
I’d rather have one bike shop that stocked what I want, rather than 1000 shiny suited shysters telling me what I need
“Me too. Whats it’s address? I will meet you there.
StoatsbrotherFree MemberTrouble is – unless the LBSs are competing with other LBSs or providers – you will get some who are brilliant and well-stocked and helpful out of the goodness of their hearts and because they want to be excellent – but lots will be serving that poo sandwich, because they can get away with it.
donsimonFree MemberWhere the hell would anyone buy a helmet?! Or anything with a really nice logo?
Who buys helmets or branded clothes? ………. Oh!
RustySpannerFull MemberMe too. Whats it’s address? I will meet you there.
So you’re happy to nationalise cycling?
Excellent!I KNEW I’d be hailed as a genius eventually…….
Obviously, the quality of bike you will be able to buy will be directly related to your actual, not percieved cycling ability.
We don’t want to be wasting precious resources on those without the need for them (mincers like myself, for example) do we? 😀
grumFree Memberhttp://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2011/08/07/JRSMpaperPritWall.pdf
Why are we making our very efficient health service more like the very unefficient American health service? So that the Tories’ friends in big business can get a slice – no other reason whatsoever. All this rubbish about choice and competition – yeah it really worked for the railways didn’t it? Nationalise the cost, privatise the profits – brilliant.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberThe history of the NHS and the wider welfare state is a record of failed attempts to curb the costs of the over-optimistic promises made by politicians.
Throughout is history (arguably from 1911 or more normally since the 1942 Beveridge Report) no-one has been able to control the costs of a service where the demand is infinite and the benefits are not linked to contributions.
We have been conditioned by the idea of a free and universal health system but in reality this never existed. Right from the outside, governments were warned about having an open-ended burden of the NHS and not surprisingly the first three years of the NHS were not the success people like Bevan had suggested. From the start there were problems with cost over-runs, lengthening waiting list (the socialist alternative to charging for the service!) and the realisation that this was a system that didn’t work/couldn’t be funded. So WITHIN three years, charges were re-introduced leading to Bevan’s resignation.
Who should pay for health care then became a political hot potato with costs being scrapped/introduced/scraped etc over the next 20-30 years….so the debate is hardly a new one.
Turning to today, there was a study by the LSE’s CEP that concluded that, “in an organisation the size of the NHS hundreds of lives appear to be being lost because of poor management.” The authors concluded that, “NHS managers seem to be incompetent compared with managers in the private sector.”
Tim Harford (of The Undercover Economist fame) concludes that, “A better diagnosis is not that the NHS is missing some elusive quality of private sector-iness, but that it is missing any sort of competitive pressure, the sort of competitive pressure that most businesses (outside banking) have to cope with every day…Competition raises standards – something that should be music to the new government’s ears.”
I have some sympathy with the CEP conclusion. The sad fact is whatever system you chose, if you put monkeys in charge, you will end up with a mess.
grumFree MemberCompetition might work in certain circumstances to improve efficiency – but in some sectors it’s false competition. Take the example of the trains – you don’t decide to go to Glasgow instead of Leeds because you prefer the train operator. All you want is to go to your desired location with a decent service at a reasonable cost.
Does anyone really want to be studying hospital league tables and googling stats on the record of a particular A+E department? Or do they just want to receive decent care from the nearest place (which the vast majority of people currently do)?
teamhurtmoreFree Member“Choice is an illusion” or “Choice can be an illusion”
…makes me think of how a few interested parties can manipulate areas of public life. The latest being Simon Cowell’s SYCO who have been able to dominate and manipulate the ITV ‘entertainment’ section. I shed no tears to read that the latest drivel “Red or Black” is struggling. Perhaps the public is seeing through blatant promotion of SYCO’s investments eg, Il Divo last night.
StonerFree Memberthe hoi polloi
terribly tautological…
Classics teaching in public schools aint what it once waskonabunnyFree MemberDoes anyone really want to be studying hospital league tables and googling stats on the record of a particular A+E department?
Except that’s not what anyone is suggesting. The introduction of choice and competition into the provision of e.g. A&E services is not that individual A&Es would be competing against each other for customers and sending ambulance drivers out with laminated menus. (Neither is that what happens in the US – you will be taken to the ER which can best meet your medical needs). Rather, trusts or companies or organisations would compete with each other to manage A&Es over an X year period.
However you feel about the proposed reforms and the status quo, trotting out rubbish straw men is just a waste of time.
grumFree MemberExcept that’s not what anyone is suggesting……
However you feel about the proposed reforms and the status quo, trotting out rubbish straw men is just a waste of time.
Except that’s what you are encouraged to do now, under Labour’s own bullshit ‘choice’ initiatives. Maybe not for A+E departments but last time I had to have an operation I was given the ‘choice’ of different departments at different hospitals where I might like to have the operation.
The Tories are talking increasing ‘choice’ – and I just think the concept is bogus.
mcbooFree MemberI think we can all agree the railways are not a fabulous example of competition in action. National infrastructure v local services, please stop trying to make that connection. Straw man/Aunt Sally/bullsh1t.
grumFree MemberI think we can all agree the railways are not a fabulous example of competition in action.
But lots of people seem to be suggesting competition automatically = better efficiency, which is clearly not the case.
And if we are into criticising other people’s arguments – all your emotive stuff about your family members is hardly adding anything to a sense of measured debate is it. Maybe you have some criticisms of the report I linked to above showing the NHS to be one of the most efficient health services in the world? Or does your personal experience trump proper research?
RustySpannerFull MemberI think we can all agree the railways are not a fabulous example of competition in action.
OK, give us one example where privatisation of a previously nationalised service has resulted in a cheaper, fairer and more efficient service for the customer.
mcbooFree MemberTelephony…..how’d you like The Post Office to be the ONLY provider of your home/mobile/cable?
binnersFull MemberAll the introduction of ‘competition’ and ‘choice’ has done is to deliver previously public services (initially built up with taxpayers money, lest we forget) into the hands of Private Monopolies and cartels who then use their position to screw us all
If I want to et the train from Manchester to London I can use Virgin or ….erm…. nope, that’s the limit of my choice, I’m afraid. As a result of this they have raised fares every year by, in their words: “as much as the market will bare”
And the supply of gas and electricity has been great for everyone since its been de-regulated, hasn’t it?
As Martin Lewis pointed out, since privatisation there hasn’t been a single incidence of one supplier raising prices, where the otehr suppliers didn’t immediately do the same. That’s not a competitive marketplace. Thats a cartel!
But in both these examples of blatant, completely anti-competitive and anti-choice profiteering, someone, somewhere is making a hell of a lot of money!. I’m sure the same people are rubbing their hands with glee at the opportunities the ‘marketisation’* of the health service will provide
* I absolutely despise that word!!!!
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