Please forgive the moan, I’m just not sure what to do.   So, nothing is really wrong.  We have a house, a happy family, the heating can be paid and there’s food on the table.

However, since October I have stopped sleeping for more than about 4hrs.  Sometimes my mind is racing about work or “stuff”, sometimes there is no reason other than a full bladder.  But I don’t really get back to sleep.  If I do it takes about 90 mins, at which point 20 mins later. my alarm goes off.  Having been through cycles of CBT, practised Mindfullness now and before and read a gazillion self help books I don’t know what to do.

Now also by my own choice I moved to Sales Management in 2022 specifically with a view to starting a new line of (software) business.  Originally pitched to launch in March, with various issues not of my making it launched in September with a handicapped product.

In the middle of this company issues were realised, I never sold until this month and was under much pressure to do so. we’ve just been through a January of  “guess if you still work here next Monday” PE based slim-down on top of Dry January also.  On top of this Kryton Jnr left this morning at 3AM for a school trip for Japan.  He’s very lucky but this is his first proper time away from us, I’m worried sick and have been glued to Flightradar all day.   There’s probably more I could rattle on about but…

…I’m tired.   Like properly mentally exhausted.  I’m finding I might decide to give up on everything – work, hobbies whatever, I start and then find I just want to go away and sleep for a few days.   Which is where I am now, I’ve started this and… what?

I know it’s a simplistic response but it sounds like the new job isn’t for you. And it’s bloody hard to sell a product you don’t believe in.

I’d be looking for something else – sometimes you  just take a wrong move and have to accept it’s not working out.

If you have only the one child and he is away, make the most of the break. Do nothing, be lazy and have a proper break from the relentlessness of parenthood to try and reset yourself.

You could be languishing?

https://theconversation.com/languishing-what-to-do-if-youre-feeling-restless-apathetic-or-empty-174994

Please do not take this the wrong way.  Its meant to be helpful

Over the years I have seen a number of similar posts from you.  There seems to me to be a deep rooted dissatisfaction / unhappiness with your life.  Its really not uncommon in middleaged men ( I think you are ???)  where you have achieved what you thought you wanted and are still not happy.  there may be an element of depression as well – sleep disorder is a key sign

I would go for some person centered counseling to explore why you feel like this and to help you find solutions.  Its a very different thing to CBT and mindfulness / self help

If your leg was broken you would go the the leg doctor.  So if your heads broken go to the head doctor.  There is no shame in doing so.  Many of us will have mental issues in our lives.  I have had counseling a number of times and am booked in for more.

As ever – the relationship between the counselor and the counselee is the key thing.  Be prepared to shop around to find someone who works for you.

OP,

I assume when you said you are practicing Mindfulness, you are also referring to or doing meditation? If you do, you need to stop the meditation immediately because you might be entering a stage known as kundalini “awakening” or crisis or syndrome or “spiritual crisis”.  This is usually associated with lack of oxygen reaching the brain (something like that) during the meditation i.e. forgot to breathe properly, as a result it affects your brain functions or may even make you hallucinate.

Go get fresh air and exercise by emptying your mind or simply not think of anything.

Now also by my own choice I moved to Sales Management in 2022 specifically with a view to starting a new line of (software) business.

If you can move away from Sales it might reduce your pressure.  Sales is high pressure cooker and unless it is your own business you have no choice but if not you will be constantly worried about meeting the sales target.  If you meet the target you are king otherwise you might be on your way out.

I was about to write exactly what TJ said, i think we get more of your personality from your posts than you realise. You come across as a highly strung high achiever who over thinks things. It’s not a criticism and I see parallels in me, for the first time in a long time despite working at a senior level I have a really supportive boss and other members of the senior management team. I’m still stressed but it’s me putting too high expectations on myself which then causes more stress.

I don’t know what the answer is but understanding how much of the situation is controlled and created by you and what drives you is a first step.

You need to let go a bit (easily said) but worrying about your son going to Japan and checking flightradar isnt normal behaviour, theres nothing you can do if the flight goes wrong which is highly unlikely.

It might be the job is too much but if you are as highly driven as I suspect you are taking a less stressful job probably isn’t the answer as you’ll still make it stressful and what you do for a living is a defining part of who you are.

TJ is right, some proper help is what’s needed, its not to cure you, its to help you deal with who you are.

Maybe I should go and take my own advice but I probably wont 😁

Ok, thanks for the response and forgive me if I miss things, I’m really struggling with detail / attention currently to the point I often give up responding to threads of late because I can’t keep up.

I don’t think its only the job, FWIW I think the software is one of if not the best in the market, but I’m entering into a new market of long term contracts with 4-5 trusted competitors.  Its hard to win business, which I am but its slow, which causes frustration in my management because the investment is slow to return.   I am close – 22 months – away from clearing the mortgage so yes I have thought of moving away into something else.

You come across as a highly strung high achiever who over thinks things

Thats very accurate, no criticism taken, and two children, we’ve had an emotional morning with Big Brother gone.

deep rooted dissatisfaction / unhappiness with your life

No offence at all TJ your post is very helpful thanks, and you are correct.  Over the Christmas period I took steps to address this, asking myself why and thinking this is the course of my tiredness, having caught up with my age – nearly 51 – I’m clearly not coping.     I asked myself why I’m driven, why I can’t stop and – as stumpyjon correctly identifies – even if I changed roles I’d make a stress out of the new one – I often envy people that survive by not caring two hoots about work.   I read self help books, thought about prior and current characteristics and though I had it nailed down to “admiration”.   This is because I had an uncomfortable relationship with parents and sibling of which there is none, and – a lot of what I do and have posted on here such as prior materialism, bike racing events the odd “look at me” post – I feel may be asking for some kind of admiration, but to the point that if I do achieve something “good”, its not good enough – and so the cycle continues.

TJ thanks.  I did go through NHS CBT for fear of flying some years back and it worked then, but the problem is re-occuring.  I tried private CBT but didnt click with the councillor.   Recently I re-tried the NHS route and was surprised to be accepted for a 6 week CBT reminder following by 12 weeks of person led counselling as you’ve suggested – this starts April.

On the admiration front I think I am coming to a point where I don’t care any more, but it is fraught with alarm bells because its foreign to me, and thats one of the the reasons I think I’m so tired, I think I’m fighting myself constantly.   I read Stephen Bartlett’s argument for happiness (fulfilment) – that we often fixate on something far away or that can’t be achieved – rather than smaller “in the moment” opportunities and this can be an issue.  I think I did this, having a dream of early retirement led happiness knocked out of me recently has troubled me because I feel I’m 17 not 9 years away from happiness, 17 years of drudgery.  I’m trying to find happy moments daily, but its hard.

I’m a bit stuck for words and fear I am rambling, I’m going to read ElShalimo’s languishing link before popping back.

Edit – somehow I think this is important:

its not to cure you, its to help you deal with who you are.

I think re the self help books, YouTube videos etc I’ve put extra pressure trying to do the former – fix myself – and not achieving the latter.  And I’m not getting fixed, which again turns into a spiral of negativity / fatigue.

Sound advice from TJ. I would just add a couple of very simple things which could have a very significant effect imo, and quite quickly.

Firstly if you drink alcohol then don’t – just cut out alcohol from your life. The benefits will include better moods and better quality sleep. Obviously caffeine needs to be kept to a minimum and ideally not beyond mid-afternoon.

And secondly ride your bike and/or go hiking and/or other outdoor pursuits. Don’t do it on your own commit yourself to a club and/or friends. Avoid procrastination.

Aim for an element of challenge, eg hikes that include some hills rather than just a stroll in the park – occasional breathlessness.

And try to connect with the outdoor environment – eg  walk aware of your surroundings looking up, not down at the ground.

Do that and expect to experience enhanced moods and enhanced sleep, and quite quickly.  But also take TJ’s sound advice.

To use an analogy that might work for you, does your performance on a bike improve more if you read books about training or get weekly 1:1 coaching sessions?

Self help books won’t work in the same way as a counselor. If you can afford it then find a private counsellor rather than going through the NHS – and I mean a proper person centred counsellor rather than cbt. I’ve been through counselling, cbt, group therapy and mindfulness – they all have their place.  (private because it frees up capacity in an already stretched NHS mental health service, you get more flexibility over the counsellor you work with and you can keep going for more than 12 weeks because that’s not really very much time to explore this sort of thing)

When you suss it out let me know, you’re not alone, we’re very similar, I’m nearly 52 and feel similar, can go through weeks of being overwhelmed and demotivator followed by periods of being quite up. Also got 2 years left on the mortage! I had a full on breakdown a few years ago that was directly related to appalling management. I have realised since its also me, but thats who i am, its a weakness but also defines me and on many levels I’m proud of who and what I am. I’d love to be one of those people who doesn’t care but I’m not.

Edit good advice from Ernie as well particularly about the alcohol. That’s one vice I don’t have, usually well under 14 units a week but do like the warm feeling a bottle of red can imbue, I can see how it becomes a habit.

Thanks the purist that of course makes much sense.

Ernie, I don’t drink much although a desire to enjoy the Christmas period got a bit much. I completed dry January, and had 2 beers on the 2nd Feb which gave me a massive hangover.  On the one hand it’s made me feel like I don’t was to drink again, on the other it feels like giving up the one bit of enjoyment I have – I don’t drink around my bike training which leaves 1 day a week so I enjoy a couple of good rums or whiskies at that time

I do think that Walking is a good idea.  I tend to work from home with mostly 10-12hrs in front of a laptop.

Edit good advice from Ernie as well particularly about the alcohol. That’s one vice I don’t have, usually well under 14 units a week

I’m not sure if you’re trying to be deliberately ironic.

14 is now considered the limit per week

https://www.nhs.uk/better-health/drink-less/

Like road speeds, it’s a limit, not a target 😂

12hr days seems excessive.

if I can’t sleep, I don’t keep trying and get frustrated. I get up and do something else for a bit.

I can really relate to a lot of what you put (although sleeping isn’t too bad apart from occasional bad night).

i got some nice tips and hints on this post https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-little-things-do-you-do-to-make-daily-life-a-little-bit-more-enjoyable/

might help if you haven’t seen it.

good luck

Others here have already given some good advice, but I’d like to add to the mix that you ask about ‘worry management’ alongside/instead of the CBT. As soon as you mentioned the Japan trip I thought ‘Kryton was worrying about that ages ago!’, and lots of the other things you say remind me of some of the things I do/have done. I’d had CBT before, but got put into/recommended to have a worry management scheme last year, instead of the CBT. I felt a bit like ‘yeah yeah, I know the theory about what I’m supposed to do, but somehow I can’t trick my brain into doing it’. But somewhere in there I had a sort of epiphany – that other people don’t think like me.

I thought it was totally normal and sensible to think through all the what ifs and what mights, and plan for them, and avoid the risks materialising. It’s probably what makes me really good at managing complex projects. But in daily life it’s just exhausting. It means you never look forward to anything, because you’re planning for the what ifs. You can’t be happy in the now, because you’re already thinking about what comes next, or next after that. Worrying about things that might be (but in most instances won’t be). And when you do it a lot, it becomes totally normalised. You think that if you don’t plan just in case thing A happens, then you’ll be unprepared and disaster will surely come of it. But, if thing A doesn’t happen, you’ve just wasted a whole pile of energy fretting about it and mitigating for it. Whereas the person who didn’t do anything just got on with living – and if thing A had happened, well, they’d have dealt with it then, if they needed to, because there are always some surprises in life. But they’re not worn down and exhausted by also worrying about possible things B-Z too, so they’ve got plenty of energy to deal with thing A. For me, it then turned into Automatic Negative Thoughts – a perpetual state of glass half empty.

Getting my head round the idea that not planning and worrying could actually be a normal and responsible state to be in took some doing. Worry management gives you tools to help spot when you’re fretting about things that actually you should just move past, and deal with if you have to, later. It illustrated to me that behaviours that I thought were keeping me safe, were actually making me ill, and the ANTs were leading me downwards.

This might not apply to you, but maybe someone else will read this and find it helpful.

This is a good listen on related matters: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/a-better-way-to-worry/

Following with interest as I’m in a very similar situation.  Completely wiped out mentally and struggling to see a way out right now.  Have been for nearly two years now.  That’s on the back of a three year period of getting my life back together after a mental breakdown only for the pandemic to hit just as I was getting back on track.

All I can say is take each day individually and try to focus on things you can control, everything else will happen regardless of what you do to change things so don’t waste your energy on them.

how about quit your job, move north, have a cheaper existence, be mortgage free, be around the hills, have some space to breathe, do a job job that requires “perfection” known plenty move and do jobs such as driving instructor, maybe work outdoors, whats keeping you down south? those of us already “northern” don’t have the choice

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…I’m tired.   Like properly mentally exhausted.  I’m finding I might decide to give up on everything – work, hobbies whatever, I start and then find I just want to go away and sleep for a few days.   Which is where I am now, I’ve started this and… what?

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oh I hear this, but then you beat yourself up for doing nothing and sleeping, you talk with friends, they say have a day off, but a day off (like a complete one) scares you, imagine the boredom!

I live on my own, I have *checks notes* 5 kids, mid MSc, so I have stuff to do, my house is a hive of activity 3/4 nights a week, absolute chaos, and sometimes in the moment I hate it, and crave the silence, but it’s worse when it’s quiet

I don’t know your personal details, is there more than 1 Kryton Jr? are you worried about an empty nest, 16/18/21 years of having something to talk to the mrs about,

Can’t believe no-one has said Coke & Hookers yet

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Can’t believe no-one has said Coke & Hookers yet

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someone jumped in with the STW equivalent of stopping drinking

Sorry to hear that you are feeling like this. I too over think things.

A few questions. Do you you need to work at home? Do you get a decent lunch break? Could you occasionally go out for lunch (proper sit down in a cafe with a friend/colleague; I try to do this at least once a month)?

I try to break my working day up by doing stuff at lunch. I went bird spotting today at the local river and gave my mum a ring. Tomorrow during lunch I’m going to play tennis against the wall at work for 15 minutes. Get away from your computer if you can and try to get some fresh air.

Your biking/racing seems very important to you. Have you got any other hobbies/ likes? Can you put less pressure on the yourself about racing & training? As the others have said I think walking and counseling may help.

Keep us posted. Will

I was feeling like the OP a week or so ago: I’d got a couple of deadlines, nothing major, but they were praying on my mind. As soon as they were over I’ve slept like a log.

I’m retired so not really relevant but I spent many years in new business IT sales in a shrinking market (unless you were SAP) so I recognise the feeling.

2 things to throw in the pot.  When people say they want to do something completely different, what they really want is something completely the same, except with a bit less of the bad stuff and a bit more of the nice stuff.  Also, when used to worry at 3am I asked myself “is this going to be a problem in 12 months time?” No, of course not.  So if it’s not going to be a problem then, there’s nothing to worry about now.

When I embark on something I don’t know how to do, I just get started, confident that my experience means that I’m going in the right direction and by the time I’ve got to the first decision point, the right decision will present itself.  Not quite as thrilling as Luke Rheinhart “the Dice Man” but fun and fulfilling as well as anxiety relieving.

There are a few things that are out of your control: the software you sell, the people making decisions about whether to buy it, the people making decisions about you, the pilot flying the jet your son is in…. . These are worries you can’t do anything about. So not worth worrying about.

Then there are the things you have more influence over: your home life which is at present mainly Mrs K, how you spend/share your free time, how you interact with those around you. You should have a good idea of what these people hope from you and it’s worth worrying about in the sense of thinking through in order to get right.

In neither environment can you control everything happening,  so put your mental energy into the things you can do  that will be appreciated rather than taken for granted. You’ll get more positive feedback.

Good luck with it all, it doesn’t sound like a good time for anything rash which would add even more stress – because the word stress is notable for it’s absence in the thread. Stress there is, see if you can relieve some of it.

Think long term when you’re coping with the short term.

You feel how you feel and nobody should be allowed to minimise that

You can minimise the diversity of issues by avoiding news reporting and social media, much of which seems to be sensationalist click-bait, apart from STW of course 🙂 Take support from people close to you

CBT is a sticking-plaster but counselling can be the cure. We’re able to access the talking therapies online more easily now so you’re no longer trapped in “London-pricing”, have a look on a professional register like the National Counselling Society or the BACP

I see elements of my wife in you OP.

She needs stress and continually striving in her life, if she didn’t have it, she would struggle with life.

She has recently seen someone from this group. She knows the founder of the organisation who is incredibly well respected world wide.

Chimp Management

and two children, we’ve had an emotional morning with Big Brother gone.

Do you think at times you bring that upon the kids yourself ? Maybe if you could cope better then they’d cope better etc ? Whilst i understand one of the kids has gone away, he’s not gone to prison or to be shot, he’s gone for a jolly… Surely that’s a good thing ?

I do think that Walking is a good idea. I tend to work from home with mostly 10-12hrs in front of a laptop.

My boss would get sacked if I did that.

And there’s a very good chance that 50% of those hours are spent doing junk work.

Like junk miles, but no fresh air…

Thanks for the comments, there’s a lot to unpack, not least the thinking I’ve been doing since I wrote the OP.

Weeksy, extending my families emotions to basically “its all my fault” isn’t helpful.   I don’t think a Dad, Mum and 10yo daughter having a few emotions when their son/big brother leaves for the first time for an extended journey is a problem.

The lunch break thing is a good idea.  I do have the occasional break which essentially consists of eating a sandwich downstairs whilst watching the clock to get back to the office upstairs.  I need to have lunch elsewhere / go for a walk, just do something different.

I do need a bit of stress & a targeted approach to work and life.   I work much better when I have that an if not I got bored, grumpy and feel unproductive.   I can’t stand being bored.   But perhaps what I am getting from this is two things (I read more of Stephen Bartletts book last night):  As above, I’m possible trying to myself in one of those social media promoted boxes of how I should be, showing “passion” and “why” and so on instead of just being me.   But also at 51, maybe I’ve reached the pinnacle of my competence/drive; maybe its ok not to be all consumed about the company I work for, the role or output I provide.   I achieved my first confirmation of a purchase order for the new business and the response was “Meh” which disappointed me.  I know why, because it wasn’t big, didnt solve any company problems, won’t stretch the quarters targets so who cares?  If so then, why should I care?   I’ve done what I was asked and need to move on to the next one – therefore I expected too much of a fanfare and should have lowered my expectations.  Just turn up, do and leave.   The originally agreement of this role is that I’d grow and manage a team as the volume of orders increases, but actually I think maybe I’m better of as an individual and experienced sales person, a gun for hire or whatever lending my experience to paying the bills and saving for the future.  I’m perhaps not one of this people that wants or will have ” a job that I love”, and thats OK.

Hannah, thanks for your post.  We have a lot of paralells and touching on the above I think you are right in that yeah, I don’t match the normal way of thinking.  Diagnosed as “…a perfectionist who is intolerance of uncertainty…” those What If’s plague me daily.   A night out with friends for me is perfectly planned, I know where I’m going, what time, which trains etc a few days before it occurs.  I’ll then clock watch for the train I planned for all night.  I don’t do “spur of the moment” well at all and this = “a perpetual state of glass half empty” is definitely me.  What if the Train doesn’t run, What If they order another round near the time I want to leave, etc..  Thanks for the link.

I think I need to use a lot of the above techniques to live more day to day, lower expectations, stop creating pivotal moments that are important for me not others as a measure of my achievement.  I need to live a bit more in infinite father than finite time, enjoying the happiness I can find today rather than aiming and waiting for a point in time to achieve it.  I’m a person that does work, not Simon Sinek.  I’m a person that enter bike races, not Nino Schurter.  Got to stop boxing myself into or striving for something I’m not.

On the plus side Jnr arrived in Tokyo OK and we have some great pics via the School Trip WhatsApp of today’s visit to a ancient Japanese Temple, albeit he left his data roaming on so has consumed the £15 emergency fund I place on his plan within about 90 minutes of arrival.  Kids eh.

But perhaps what I am getting from this is two things (I read more of Stephen Bartletts book last night)

Have a watch of this interview with Stephen Bartlett. Completely hits the nail on the head

How To Take Full Control Of Your Mind: Prof. Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox | E96 – YouTube

Weeksy, extending my families emotions to basically “its all my fault” isn’t helpful.   I don’t think a Dad, Mum and 10yo daughter having a few emotions when their son/big brother leaves for the first time for an extended journey is a problem.

You asked for some thoughts… i gave some… Apologies, i didn’t mean to offend. Either i was wrong or you’ve taken it completley the wrong way… i’m not sure… but it wasn’t deliberately nasty in any way.

I can’t stand being bored.

What do you mean by this, exactly?  No-one likes being bored, but people have different approaches to having no-one giving them things to do.  My mind is always wandering onto something else, which is great when I have free time, but not so much when I need to do my job.

What about the traditional question – what would you do @kryton57 if you won the lottery?  Answer for day 1, day 7, day 30 and day 365?

Weeksy,

but it wasn’t deliberately nasty in any way.

I know that, I didn’t take offence.

Molgrips, I can’t even contemplate those questions right now. I’m not sure of the point of doing so, it isn’t the case so why?

If you’ve got the money in the bank then a career break/sabbatical is the way to go

I’ve had periods in life where i have been similar in some ways, and found it difficult to switch off from work and worrying about Type 1 daughter, mixed with periods of poor sleep (especially with daughter going through puberty and blood glucose swinging all over).

I also either work from home for 10 hours of have long commute to office.

Few little things that have helped me.

Reading a book not watching TV in last 45 mins before bed, to the point i feel ready to put it down and sleep.

Listening to podcasts quietly to go to sleep, ones that are purely spoken word, and calming, so history ones like We Have ways of making you talk or science based ones for me, they allow my mind to just zone in on one thing and stop mind racing.

I have also set up a bit of a gym in the garage, and have a split routine, i go out at lunch at do 30-40 minutes of either yoga or body weight exercises (both using Wahoo SYSTM), and then after work, a good turbo trainer session, i find being physically tired helps me calm the mental side, it gives me a break from work and a good dose of endorphins.

Having a group of mates to go riding with one evening a week and at weekend, i do genuinely believe that the mix of getting some fresh air, exercise and just talking to others about something else other than work, and maybe even having a bit of a moan to each other is one of the best forms of counselling – to the point where one friend has said ” i think riding with you guys has saved me recently”, it was the way he just came out with it and it made us all think consciously about what we had as a group of friends.

Finally, now the days are drawing out, get outside, even if it just a 15 minute walk or a potter in the garden, buy a greenhouse, grow some stuff.. again it just allows your brain to take a step back.

I know i am probably just stating the bleeding obvious…. but it all little things that have made me a nicer person to be around in last few years.

I went through a mental health “situation” over Christmas. I’m dealing with it now, on meds and CBT booked.

I feel like I’m just beginning the journey. I faced up to the fact I have mental health issues (anxiety and depression), which was the major win for me. It’s way more common thatn you’d think.

A couple of things that have helped;
Quit the news. It’s mostly just vying for your attention, and it’s not doing you any favours. Clickbait, fear, and scary stories. Where’s the good stuff eh!!!? I have very little idea what’s going on in the wider world, and I don’t care anymore – tell me I should.

Quit the booze, we don’t need it. It’s just societal norm. It’s weird really when you think about it. The cons greatly outweigh the pros.

Try and live in the moment. I find this hard; I am a massive worrier too (3am awake etc). BUT I have been achieving it here and there, having a word with myself, and realising what I am doing right now, is fantastic. It might be I am running through beautiful countryside and nothings hurting, aren’t I lucky to be fit and healthy enough to do this! Or I’m sat around the table with my wife and kids – this is amazing, stop and be in this moment, be present.

Plenty of fine advice in here.

Only thing I wonder is whether you’ve had or considered traditional psychotherapy (or just counselling), rather than CBT?

Sorry if you’ve mentioned this or it’s been covered. Only had time to skim some of the posts.

Diagnosed as “…a perfectionist who is intolerance of uncertainty…” those What If’s plague me daily.

Just wanted to say, you are not alone.

Uncertainty is everywhere and in everything we do. You walk to the co-op to get some milk and a car could hit you, an asteroid could wipe out your village, a ravenous rottweiler could bite your leg off. It’s easy to overthink things, I’m often guilty of being over analytical but I don’t catastrophise things.

So much of life is about mitigation, managing expectations etc etc etc.  You often don’t know you’re doing it but you’re frequently doing this at a lower level. Maybe find what helps you do simple risk mitigation like overtaking on the motorway and then think about the mental processes involved.