Menopause and potential family destruction

Just to add i have diagnosed aspergers which my wife thinks is a choice i have made rather than something i can do little about, all i do is keep my gob shut most of the time.

@oldmanmtb2 in a sea of tough posts, this has jumped out at me. Feeling your pain, I hope you both can find a way through this.

What husband do they want/need now that you don’t think you fulfill?

emotional reaction to a mug being in the wrong place in the diswasher

The male menopause is real then?

Osteoporosis isn’t a given if you keep on top of diet & the right sort of (weight bearing) exercise

No amount of weight bearing exercise or keeping on top of diet will stop post menopausal bone loss. You can limit the damage but bone loss will still happen. For some women osteoporosis is a given.

The 2002 WHI study that originally suggested a link between HRT & increased breast cancer risk was hugely flawed but the coverage at the time meant that the use of HRT fell massively out of fear when many women could have benefitted.

I would argue the most flawed/biased studies are those that state there is no link. Anyhow 21 years on, something up to date:

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/hormones-and-cancer/does-hormone-replacement-therapy-increase-cancer-risk

So if you had a family history of both breast cancer and osteoporosis what would you do, ART?

We have a thread in which some men seem very keen on putting women on a treatment for men’s convenience. I think women should be left to make their own decisions about what is best for themselves without interference from men and apply that strictly to my own couple. Not keen on the pill – condoms and calcualtions. Not keen on HRT – lube, vitamin D, lots of walking, tolerance and love.

What type of husband.. well one that is emotionally connected to each feeling negative or positive that she has, being aware of all the micro issues in life that impact her happiness (ref mug in dishwasher) one who will listen but never challenge, disagree, offer opinion and simply nods. A husband that should be on hand/available to sort all problems (even when there is no soloution that supports her wishes) and whose advice/opinion is not valid or required. An expectation that i will take aĺl critism on an hourly basis of my poor performance in respect to all the above.  Above all else endure the procrastination about the location of furnture, plant, what colour of paint etc etc etc

What type of husband.. well one that is emotionally connected to each feeling negative or positive that she has, being aware of all the micro issues in life that impact her happiness (ref mug in dishwasher) one who will listen but never challenge, disagree, offer opinion and simply nods. A husband that should be on hand/available to sort all problems (even when there is no soloution that supports her wishes) and whose advice/opinion is not valid or required. An expectation that i will take aĺl critism on an hourly basis of my poor performance in respect to all the above. Above all else endure the procrastination about the location of furnture, plant, what colour of paint etc etc etc

Without wanting to state the obvious or derail the thread, that doesn’t sound entirely reasonable

Or like it has much to do with the menopause as stated by oldmanmtb2 himself on the previous page.

Well it seems reasonable to someone in our House.

We have a thread in which some men seem very keen on putting women on a treatment for men’s convenience. I think women should be left to make their own decisions about what is best for themselves without interference from men and apply that strictly to my own couple.

Can’t disagree with that. Nothing to add to the discussion except I had to take HRT from my mid-30’s and really there was very little in the way of trusted information. Wish I’d stopped it sooner/not taken it all, hey ho. On a serious note, it does concern me that it’s being touted as the Holy Grail.

Once again, some people on here are describing a toxic relationship, not the menopause or peri-menopause.

IME, the issue with HRT and cancer risk are twofold:

First is that it’s being promoted as a panacea in some parts, when it’s not, and some women really aren’t suitable for it, because of the cancer risk.

Second, it’s more about how women would feel if they then developed cancer. The increased risk  is low, but the cancers involved  (breast, ovarian and to a lesser extent endometrial) are relatively common. They are treatable in many cases, and much more so than they were even 20 years ago, however the treatments themselves are still pretty brutal to go through, and quite often make the menopause seem like a walk in the park, to quote one of my patients. Unfortunately some women then blame themselves retrospectively for making the (rational at the time) choice to have HRT.

True about toxic relationships, i think the menopause may just surface a lot of issues.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>It’s difficult (particularly for aspergers) to know what amount of tolerance and understanding to show and more difficult to know when to walk away. For people like me i struggle to accept or have empathy (being honest) with another human who will not take what i see as simple practical steps to improve their well being. Yes i know this is an Aspie viewpoint.</p>

I don’t think that is an Asperger’s point of view actually, especially if it’s impacting on your own mental health.

It is completely reasonable, that if someone is engaging in behaviour that actively harms your well-being, to ask them to stop.

If they will not do so, then you either have to decide whether you can tolerate it, or leave.

To decide whether you can tolerate it, it helps to have some pre-decided criteria. An example may be, if I find myself dreading/avoiding going home, then it is time to leave.

What I was trying to say in my clumsy way earlier was that taking HRT must and can only be that womans individual decision based on good information.  there are factors that work both ways.  I know women whose lives have been transformed by taking it.  I know women who didn’t take it and are happy with that.

some women then blame themselves retrospectively for making the (rational at the time) choice to have HRT.

This is where Mrs S is at. As with other treatments, once started it is also difficult to stop, because you fear a resumption of the systems.

On relationships, I don’t recognise much, if any, of what’s being described above so it’s definitely not a given.

We’re all living a lot longer post menopause and expected to be able to work longer too. I used to think I need to do everything the ‘natural’ way but after experiencing life and relationship limiting peri symptoms and discovering that the newer, body identical hrt treatments exist I changed my mind and have no qualms about cancer risks. Those were hugely overblown and were also based on the old types of hrt. The newer types show very little or no evidence of increased risk as long as you are not one of the few unlucky people to be genetically prone.

“Many women worry about breast cancer when taking HRT, but most types of HRT do not actually increase the risk of breast cancer. Some studies have shown that women taking combined HRT containing both estrogen and a progestogen (which is a synthetic progesterone) may be associated with a very small increased risk of breast cancer.

The increased risk is related to the type of progestogen in the HRT and not the estrogen. Taking micronised progesterone (the body identical progesterone) has not been shown to be associated with an increased risk of breast cancer.

Even for women taking the synthetic progestogen, the risk is very low and is actually less than the increased risk of breast cancer associated with drinking a couple of glasses of wine each night, or from being overweight. No studies have shown that any type of HRT increases the risk of a woman’s death from breast cancer.

If you have had a hysterectomy in the past, and are just taking estrogen without a progestogen, you actually have a lower risk of breast cancer than if you did not take HRT at all. There is also no increased risk of breast cancer in women who take any type of HRT when they are under the age of 51 years.

If you take estrogen in tablet form, you have a small increased risk of developing a blood clot, but this risk is not
present if you take estrogen through the skin in a patch, gel or spray”

Biggest killer of older women is heart disease (which is reduced with hrt)and then other things like osteoporosis leading to hip breaks mean much reduced quality and length of life. So by all means everyone make their own choice but just like when deciding whether to get the COVID vaccine it required a risk reward assessment the same should be considered with hrt especially with new treatments and updated knowledge. A lot of GPS still have pretty outdated ideas so even seeking professional advice can be a potscode lottery.

Taking micronised progesterone (the body identical progesterone) has not been shown to be associated with an increased risk of breast cancer.

Just to clarify, that still means that it could still be associated with an increased risk of breast  cancer, indeed, medically speaking, it would be surprising if it wasn’t in time.

Micronised progesterone almost certainly hasn’t been used in enough patients for long enough for the risks to show up yet. It takes years for increased risks to show up in the data, especially if they’re relatively small.

Second, it’s more about how women would feel if they then developed cancer.

And the problem with this is of course that the cancers are quite common, and the increased risk demonstrably small, but everyone who gets cancer will suspect that it wouldn’t have happened without the HRT, even though this belief is obviously false for a large majority of them.

But, you know, just about everything causes cancer at some level. I’m sure that none of us manage to avoid all known risks, and most of us indulge in major and well-known ones like alcohol, red meat and other dietary factors.

No studies have shown that any type of HRT increases the risk of a woman’s death from breast cancer.

That’s a disingeneous way of putting it when studies have clearly shown an increased breast cancer risk, but the survival rate from breast cancer is high. It would be very difficult to find astatistically proveable link using only cancer death stats.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)31709-X/fulltext

Like many people of my age I know a good few breast cancer survivors and the lasting effects of the treatment they have endured conbined with the psycholgical impact are considerable. Objectively according to that Lancet article you are playing a numbers game, are the benefits of HRT (if any depending on the person) worth a 1/25 – 1/200 chance of getting breast cancer if you take HRT of some type for between five and ten years.

But, you know, just about everything causes cancer at some level.

It depends what you mean, exactly, by that statement?

First, it’s not everything. Very few plants, if eaten and not overly processed, are associated with an increased cancer risk, in fact they’re mostly protective.

Second there are substances that are toxic at any dose. Tar in cigarette smoke, alcohol being two most commonly ingested.

Third is that there are some substances that are carcinogenic if consumed in large amounts (above the toxic threshold), but that don’t seem to have an increased risk if consumed at moderate levels (below the toxic threshold), such as red meat.

A lot of GPS still have pretty outdated ideas so even seeking professional advice can be a potscode lottery.

I have heard this from women I know – very variable response from GPs

Is this something that should be done thru specialist clinics?

Third is that there are some substances that are carcinogenic if consumed in large amounts (above the toxic threshold), but that don’t seem to have an increased risk if consumed at moderate levels (below the toxic threshold), such as red meat.

Why do you think there is a threshold for red meat?

Most cancer research is based on a quasi-linear model (perhaps something like log-linear) implying the absence of a threshold, the risk just increases with the level of consumption. Of course this is hard to prove, as the increase in risk may be undetectable for very small doses. That doesn’t mean the risk is zero.

Regardless, the proven threshold for meat causing increased rates of cancer is not very high. A quick google suggests that 50g per day causes a clear rise in colorectal cancer rates.

But yes you’re right I was much too broad saying “just about everything”. I should have said something like “lots of things that many people eat and do routinely”.

Is this something that should be done thru specialist clinics?

No. It’s a reason to prioritise recruiting and retaining good quality GPs and reducing our workload so that we can provide a better cost effective service.

Most cancer research is based on a quasi-linear model (perhaps something like log-linear) implying the absence of a threshold, the risk just increases with the level of consumption. Of course this is hard to prove, as the increase in risk may be undetectable for very small doses. That doesn’t mean the risk is zero.

Now try convincing the pro-nuclear people on this forum and elsewhere of that. 🙂

So if you had a family history of both breast cancer and osteoporosis what would you do, ART?

I have no issues with women choosing HRT and there are often good medical reasons why they would as other women have said. Perimenopause/ menopause is in many ways a ‘barometer of health’ that can reveal and amplify underlying health issues so there’s every reason to come at this stuff holistically if you can.

I do have family history, but I focus on the things I can control. That means eating the right food, paying attention to gut health, taking the best supplements, lifting heavy, not drinking alcohol, maintaining a healthy circadian rhythm and avoiding [unnecessary] stress  as best I can – you know, like getting sucked into threads like this on STW – 😉

ART

your post have been interesting to me.

Two things.

1) I’m loving Kramer’s contributions to this thread.

2) “Today, we had the most ridiculous exchange of words about what pants I wanted for Christmas – in August. I admit I responded with some incredulity. I would laugh at how puerile it all was if it wasn’t a perfect microcosm of our difficulties.” This concerns me deeply. Hormones aside I’ve seen this movie before and it ended with me with a golf-swing related concussion.

Christmas pants, i raise that one with “two tins of paint”

Other half ” we have two tins of exterior paint that are the same colour but different”

Me “we only have one tin of exterior paint”

Other half “no we have two”

Me goes to shed fetchs one tin of paint.

Other half “wheres the other tin”

Other half “you must have thrown it out”

Me “yes i must have” returns paint to shed along with will to live Knowing full well there has never been two tins.

I can post this type of shit every day.

The osteoporosis information is interesting. I didn’t take HRT and got away ‘lightly’ with very few menopausal symptoms, instead going down the ‘doing lots of exercise’ route (I stress this does not work for everyone). A few years later I had a fall (running down a hill and slipped, landing heavily) and broke my hip, this incident has really affected my life in so many ways. Had I known about HRT (there was very little info around then) maybe I would have gone onto it to prevent osteoporosis.

Kramer – it’s also not always possible to step away from someone in one’s life that causes grief or is toxic (in my case a female relative). But can I just say your advice on this thread has been helpful in so many ways.

@Bunnyhop, you’re correct, and that can be a very hard situation to be in. It can help to name it though.

Thread resurrection, but my wife and I are on absolutely complete meltdown at the moment. Divorce is knocking on the door. I can not do or say anything right. It’s an absolutely horrific situation currently. I have never been so upset in my life, I didn’t know a 39 year old could cry as much I have done recently. It’s so sad, our twins are two. I love them dearly. It feels like a helpless situation.

ed , cant comment on your exact situation but having had twins…. its freaking tough!

if indeed its a menopause thing then, at be least for us my wife got through it

Thanks Kimbers. I did suggest to her perimenopause could be at play. Obviously she melted down at the suggestion but I thought I had to get it out somehow. She claims she then went to the doctors to discuss it, and she claims the doctor said they were concerned that someone would even suggest such a thing. If this was true I absolutely can not believe this was the response from the doctor. I’m just trying to look out for my wife because I care.

I honesty believe we will get divorced, but I can not stress how much I want to try and resolve it.

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kimbers
Full Member
ed , cant comment on your exact situation but having had twins…. its freaking tough!

yes it can be, but it’s more down to the circumstances than the amount of children (parent to two 14 yr old girls and foster carer of one 13 yr old boy)

Twins are hard work at 2, likely to have been lots of stress and complications with the birth, even if it went well. Have you considered post natal depression might be a factor?

i’ve not read the entire thread, but was wondering if you’d been to speak to your own GP, Edward?

i’ve just read the posts on this page and your wife’s behaviour doesn’t sound “normal”. i think you should discuss it with your GP. i say this only because it is what i would do.

good luck and best wishes 

Thank you Lat. and a family member gave me the same advice yesterday. My mother thinks my wife is depressed, her brother (very empathetic and understanding) has she comes across as sad, and other people have commented. How do I tell her we think she is depressed without her yelling at me? How do I give her the insight to reflect within? All I want to do is help her, but I’m dammed if I do and dammed if I don’t.

Really sorry to hear about this situation. I hope you find a solution.

I have booked to see my gp today to discuss my wife and ways to help. Fingers crossed she can advise a way forward.

I posted a reply earlier that seems to have not made it, but it sounds like you are trying the right approach and have family on both sides who share your concerns.