Mark Duggan lawfully killed

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  • Mark Duggan lawfully killed
  • Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    Jury heard the evidence and based their decision on that.

    I’ve not heard all the evidence so how can I form a valid opinion? [yes I know this is stw]

    loddrik
    Member

    Live by the gun, die by the gun, his family and ‘supporters’ seem a little oblivious to this…

    Did they think he was an alter boy..?

    Houns
    Member

    What wwaswas said

    Premier Icon pondo
    Subscriber

    Gotta be thinking, if he hadn’t been in a taxi with a gun, his chances of being shot by armed police would have been lower.

    wwaswas, spot on.

    Stoner
    Member

    Given the inevitable hoohaa over conflicting witness statements I think it makes a very good case for all police officers to wear video recording equipment with the custody of the recordings being shared by the police for evidence purposes and an independent authority for integrity and corroboration.

    project
    Member

    Quite a few police forces are already trialing that idea, along with gps monitoring of locations of the officers, but like everything they can be manipulated or switched off covered, accidently or purposefufully.

    Quite a few peeps tonight will have not heard or seen the evidence, but that will not stop them showing their dis satifaction with the law .

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    People on twitter who’ve said it was the right decision have been getting a fair amount of abuse.

    Probably from the same people who’d be crowing now if the decision had gone the other way.

    That’s the thing with a jury based system – you have to accept the decision whether you agree with it or not. You can’t go for best of three or only count the decisions in your favour. Although that sort of acceptance seems to escape even Government ministers on occasion.

    Premier Icon cobrakai
    Subscriber

    I’m not trolling but I genuinely couldn’t care about him. He carried a gun with the intention if using it, but ended up getting shot himself. Tough titty.

    crankboy
    Member

    “It was death by a thousand fuckups.”
    The jury heard the evidence they know more than any one on the internet.
    The guardian report suggests that the armed cops will be camera’d up by April a good thing so long as when they are pilling in to stop armed nutters they don’t pause to make sure the camera is on or take a selfie.

    Pigface
    Member

    Topics like this need Elf for pure entertainment.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    I’m uneasy as to how the Met police can kill an unarmed person with their hands in the air in a surrender pose with no immediate danger to the officers in question yet be absolved of unlawful killing.

    Says it all about the Met police in my opinion.

    Stoner
    Member

    Cant help but think that the hamster-wranglers at http://more.arrse.co.uk/ have let them out of their cage to avoid a meltdown ….

    globalti
    Member

    I’m glad I wasn’t on that jury – I found a very simple four-day sex abuse case stressful enough.

    Stoner
    Member

    Says it all about the Met police in my opinion.

    It says very little about the Met in my opinion.
    One witness gave evidence to suggest that Duggan was killed with his hands up in a surrender position and 8 out of 10 jurors were not convinced that that was sufficient evidence to conclude that Duggan was not perceived as a danger.

    scotroutes
    Member

    Stoner wrote:

    Says it all about the Met police in my opinion.

    It says very little about the Met in my opinion.
    One witness gave evidence to suggest that Duggan was killed with his hands up in a surrender position and 8 out of 10 jurors were not convinced that that was sufficient evidence to conclude that Duggan was not perceived as a danger.
    [/quote]Are you suggesting that juries always deliver the correct verdict?

    Stoner
    Member

    Im saying you cant draw the conclusion that “the Met police can kill an unarmed person with their hands in the air” from the material we’ve got to work with. Id prefer to ask the jury what they thought. Fortunately some else already has….

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    I think it’s remarkable that armed police do not kill more people really.

    Presumably if you’ve just performed a “hard stop” on the car of a man you think has a gun you are pretty keyed up and far more likely to think you see guns in suspect’s hands than you otherwise would be.

    I believe it is still the case that officers are allowed to put their heads together and get their story straight before giving evidence in these things. Am I making that up? If I’m not, that doesn’t seem to be very helpful to me.

    slowjo
    Member

    What cobrakai said…..+1

    Premier Icon cobrakai
    Subscriber
    Premier Icon notmyrealname
    Subscriber

    I’m not going to comment on whether or not I think he was rightly or wrongly killed but I’ll just say that I’m glad it’s crappy weather at the moment as it’ll stop all the idiots going out and starting to riot again 🙂

    robdob
    Member

    The problem with reading reports of a court case is that people outside the court only ever get to see the TEXT of what was said. They don’t get to hear how it was delivered, how the winess responded to questioning, their body language and so on. I don’t think a witness who was in a 9th floor flat (as the one who said he had his hands up was when it happened) was in the best place to see what went on, but if in addition the jury just didn’t believe what he was saying from the way he acted it would be very easy to dismiss that evidence he gave, or at least give it much less importance when considering their verdict.

    I have been on a crown court jury and give evidence in a professional capacity for my job (not police).

    Premier Icon BigDummy
    Subscriber

    This US blog is doubtless often somewhat unfair on the police, but is quite interesting. A recurring theme is SWAT teams carrying out raids or vehicle stops that (arguably) don’t really need to happen, and the keyed-up and heavily armed officers then shooting people they perceive might be a threat. This seems to be far more acute in the US, because of (a) the much heavier firepower being deployed by SWAT units and (b) the far more routine expectation that the people they are trying to arrest will also have serious weapons.

    The result is quite clearly a combat mentality among law-enforcement officers. The saddest stories on the blog are where a SWAT team raids completely the wrong house, the homeowner grabs a weapon because he has no idea who just kicked his door in and the police then shoot him.

    We’re a very long way from that I think.

    anonymouse
    Member

    I’ve nothing to say about the verdict, as I wasn’t on the jury and didn’t hear the evidence. But I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a fair few people who also didn’t hear the evidence caused trouble in that there London tonight. Here we go again.

    One down a thousand more to go

    We in the UK do not allow unlawful firearms, he had one and died because of his connection to it. Whether he had it in his possession at the time of the shooting is irrelevant to me.

    As Loddrick said, live by the gun die by the gun.

    I think we should give dibble knives aswell…

    Although harsher sentences and going back to real incarceration would be a better deterrent, not the effing holiday camps they are in now.

    Premier Icon ampthill
    Subscriber

    We do risk having a society where people who have to step up to the plate and deal with the really tough stuff are continually abused for the work they do. Often they are condemned by people whose working day consists of in effect making sure enough paper clips have been ordered

    Social Workers and The Police have massively tough jobs and usually get little thanks or far worse end up in court for trying to do their jobs

    footflaps
    Member

    I’m not trolling but I genuinely couldn’t care about him. He carried a gun with the intention if using it, but ended up getting shot himself. Tough titty.

    +1

    One less gun wielding scum bag off the streets. Full credit to the police.

    scandalous
    Member

    have always shared the opinion expressed by cobrakai

    if you carry a weapon you should expect no less

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    It’s a shame that it resulted in him being shot rather than arrested, the judge and jury have made their decision with far more knowledge than I have.

    ninfan
    Member

    One less gun wielding scum bag off the streets.

    But he never had a gun, it was planted there by the racialist babylon!

    RIP Soulja!

    legend
    Member

    ninfan – Member

    But he never had a gun, it was planted there by the racialist babylon!

    RIP Soulja!

    Wurd.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    PM on R4 covered the ‘discrepancy’ between the jury being convinced that he was unarmed and yet also return a lawful killing pretty well. It comes down to whether the copper thought he had a gun; if they were happy with his statement to that effect it was lawful for him to take the action he did. So there is no ‘discrepancy’.

    noteeth
    Member

    I’m not entirely sure what I find more annoying – dumbass shottas carrying dem [illegal] pieces… or internet blowhards pontificating about it, ex post facto.

    matther01
    Member

    Lets just hope numpties dont use the verdict as an excuse to commit mass riots.

    Police cover up.

    They shot an unarmed man.

    Then planted the gun.

    This thread is not going to end well.

    MSP
    Member

    We in the UK do not allow unlawful firearms,

    Unless you are a member of the SAS with mental problems, then it’s ok.

    While his killing has been shown to be lawful, that doesn’t mean mistakes weren’t made that could perhaps be avoided in the future. The big problem about the case though was the way the police and even the IPC briefed the press after the event. The IPC especially deserve a real ticking off over there handling of the incident.

    legend
    Member

    matther01 – Member
    Lets just hope numpties dont use the verdict as an excuse to commit mass riots.

    Nah, I could do with some new electronic goods right now!

    I remember walking past the riots.

    Was a warm day too.

    I still remember when some men got out of their cars with ski masks and baseball bats right in front of me!

    Police are pl..bs…oops.

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