Marginal gains to save the planet

How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year? On the plus side we aren’t flying anywhere this year.

In the big picture though anyone who regularly flies is kidding themselves if they think sticking a bit less water in the kettle is going to matter.

Tj, we have created a world economy that relies on the flow of money from the wealthy to the poor. If wealthy countries encourage their wealthy inhabitants to keep all the wealth to themselves then what happens to the poor? We cannot restrict that flow without severe consequences for many. If buying locally works for you, great, but if we encourage everyone to do so then the world economy collapses which will mean a radical shift in your local purchase power.

A few people have mentioned packaging, the packaging industry is worth hundreds of billions.. that puts food on the table for a lot of people.  We need to improve and or  replace NOT remove. Reduction will just slow the progress

The marginal gains aim is to buy as much or more tat than last year while reducing your carbon footprint 👍

How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year?

I suspect several years of my below average CO2 to regain what was lost by flying to the Yukon  😉  A few years average car usage?

Modern meat production has no historical precedents in its cruelty and disconnection from anything natural for the animals forced to live their conscious existence within that machinery.

Much of it, but not all. I can buy lamb that has been raised on a hillside behind my house.  Next time you’re in Wales look how many sheep are wandering around the hills and how many you see crammed in barns.

If wealthy countries encourage their wealthy inhabitants to keep all the wealth to themselves then what happens to the poor?

They will spend it somehow and / or we take that wealth off them.  Use the same resources but spread it around.  🙂

Reduction will just slow the progress

Exactly!  This is what is needed.  We need to reduce consumption particularly of energy.  We have plenty of food and stuff and energy for the worlds population if we share it around.

How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year? On the plus side we aren’t flying anywhere this year.

Not flying has been one of my main reductions. I’ve not been on a plane for 6 years – and that was Glasgow to Barra 😂. However, Mrs S doesn’t feel the same and we’ll be flying to France this summer. TBH I looked very seriously at the alternative travel options but couldn’t square the additional cost and time required. We’re off to visit friends there so it’s not like a destination pulled out of a hat either.

You flew about 2×4000 miles, TJ. So very roughly just an average year of car use rather than several in terms of CO2. You have no descendants to worry about so any efforts you do make is pure philanthropy.

Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.

Oh, I know I’m not really making much effort but then I see other folk who don’t give a shit and sometimes wonder why I bother at all.

On the other hand, reading what folk on here are doing makes me reconsider and is good for ideas. It’s important it shouldn’t be a pissing contest though.

we have created a world economy that relies on the flow of money from the wealthy to the poor.

What parellel universe is this you speak of? The one I inhabit works the other way round.

The only thing I could do to make a difference is insulation in my house and solar panels but it’s not my house (housing association) and I don’t have the money to do it so I’ll continue to burn coal/wood – usually get through 4 bags/week if cold in winter and 2 bags logs as stove is never off, in summer it’s far less. The air source heat pump has been switched off for 3 years along with the Tesla battery as the ashp cost an absolute fortune to run but I live alone so it’s easy enough to cope without hot water as I have an electric shower.

Solar panels/insulation under the floor, attic, walls (as there’s none anywhere) and replace the knackered 40yr old double glazing windows and I’d be a happy toasty bunny.

Been vegi for 35 years, had 8 flights in my life/last in 2001, do 150 miles a month in car for mum to get my shopping/take a mate for her shopping.

Don’t buy clothing/other shite etc, last purchase was Aldi joggers 2 years ago so can’t do much else.

Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.

Apart from the people who want to shit on it and inform everyone about how pointless attempting to be green is.

I don’t care if it’s pointless. I’d rather feel like I’m making some tiny insignificant contribution to the world being a better place than the alternative.

The thing is that this

Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.

And this

I don’t care if it’s pointless. I’d rather feel like I’m making some tiny insignificant contribution to the world being a better place than the alternative.

are equally valid.

There are three types of people (massive generalisation alert)

1 People who say there isn’t a problem

2 People who say there is a problem, but it’s too big a problem for individuals to be able to fix.

3 People who say there is a problem, and if individuals do all they can individually, it can be fixed.

Both 1 and 3 are, I think, deluded. I get that that if you fall into 2 or 3 you may wish to do all, or as much as you feel able or bothered to, do to minimise the problem, but as a firm believer in 2 who’s doing what he can, all we’re really doing is making ourselves feel less guilty (because unless we’re going to time travel back and live before the industrial revolution, we’re guilty)

The problem is systemic, and cannot be solved by any easy means.

Largest part of the problem is that our planet-wide economic system is based on the idea of permanent growth as a necessary part to keep the system running. Endless growth in a limited planetary ecosystem – that is the logic of a cancerous growth.

A cancer will kill the host, as it does not care about anything but continuing growth and amassing imaginary wealth.

The only true wealth on this planet are the ecosystems providing livable conditions. The only net producers are plants and photosynthetic algae – they provide life for everything else (somewhat simplified).

At present our whole economic system is wholly disconnected from this basic reality, and we act like we can simply take whatever we happen to want, without any consideration of what it is doing to the web of life that we are but a part of. This is a simple but unescapable fact, and any solution that does not start from this fact is doomed to fail. We should be thinking of “how can we improve survival of all life” – instead we have treated “nature” only as a resource to be tamed, conquered and exploited – for a few thousand years now.

It basically started with agriculture, and this system has been spreading since then – until the empire now encompasses the whole planet, and is running against hard limits that cannot be denied anymore. It did not start with industrial revolution, it goes much further back than that, but the industrialisation and hydrocarbon use simply pushed this into exponential acceleration.

http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/index.html This book is a very concise treatment of this whole subject, if anyone happens to be so inclined.

Current problems regarding the overproduction of meat, sugar, salt, alcohol, cars, pharmaceuticals, etc are due to the govts attempt to channel revenue in preparation for the next big thing.

Whats the next big thing?

Space/ the moon.

The big money will be in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals and artificial hips, etc, in zero gravity environments.

But you need a significant investment to achieve escape velocity.

So your supermarkets and utility companies are trying to skim as much cash out of you as possible.

The sheer quantity of meat, they’re trying to foist on us is quite staggering.

It would have been simpler just to offer ‘space bonds’.

Likewise, you could argue that the whole covid debacle was an attempt to see if we could manufacture and deploy antivirals sufficiently quickly enough to counter anything that’s been harbouring in the moons rocks for the past billion years.

The best environmental strategy at the moment would be to petition the govt to legalise the use of cannabis.

Widespread use would make it easier for the public to change their current bad habits.

I guess that the good news is that, globally, they’ll release the chokehold on the environment in favour of astronomical financial returns from near-earth industries.

This is awesome, bravo Sir 😱😱😱😱

Current problems regarding the overproduction of meat, sugar, salt, alcohol, cars, pharmaceuticals, etc are due to the govts attempt to channel revenue in preparation for the next big thing.

Whats the next big thing?

Space/ the moon.

The big money will be in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals and artificial hips, etc, in zero gravity environments.

But you need a significant investment to achieve escape velocity.

So your supermarkets and utility companies are trying to skim as much cash out of you as possible.

The sheer quantity of meat, they’re trying to foist on us is quite staggering.

It would have been simpler just to offer ‘space bonds’.

Likewise, you could argue that the whole covid debacle was an attempt to see if we could manufacture and deploy antivirals sufficiently quickly enough to counter anything that’s been harbouring in the moons rocks for the past billion years.

The best environmental strategy at the moment would be to petition the govt to legalise the use of cannabis.

Widespread use would make it easier for the public to change their current bad habits.

I guess that the good news is that, globally, they’ll release the chokehold on the environment in favour of astronomical financial returns from near-earth industries.

So your supermarkets and utility companies are trying to skim as much cash out of you as possible.

This comment ties in quite nicely (nicely not really being an apt word) with the false inflation we’ve had forced upon us over the past three years under the guise of COVID and Ukraine. It was plain to see that whilst yes these events may have had an effect on some prices, ultimately suppliers ended up artificially increasing inflation in a whirlwind of greed

Government channeling revenue, COVID being an experiment? Don’t, you’ll be accused of being a conspiracy theorist…..

The tip I gave earlier was a bit weird – ‘taking a tupperware to the butcher etc, but, myself and many others will have tupperware containers that are decades old and continue to use them.

I think (but will check later at the re-fill shop) that the re-usable wet wipes are biodegradable, that’s why they can only be used around 4/5 times.

Our WI is having a ‘green dot’ day on Wednesday. Meaning that every WI group in the country has to earn a green dot on the UK map to prove they are making changes to the good of the local environment . To gain this (and we can be a bit competitive) means each and every member needs to become greener in a few ways. There are 3 of us running this. It’ll be a challenge but we need to get the ladies to change ‘some’ habits of a lifetime.

There are three types of people (massive generalisation alert)

1 People who say there isn’t a problem

2 People who say there is a problem, but it’s too big a problem for individuals to be able to fix.

3 People who say there is a problem, and if individuals do all they can individually, it can be fixed.

or 4 – those4 who know individual action  is not enough but still do what they can anyway.

4a – people who do all they can

4b – people who at least make an effort in some way.

I’m a 4b. I suspect most of us are.

It doesn’t count if your doing completely the wrong thing though. Penny pinching will not work, your holding up progress.

…I see other folk who don’t give a shit and sometimes wonder why I bother at all.

In my more cynical times I wonder if some of these well-known massive users of CO2 – the F1 or TdF circus, the private jet celebs or the reports on how awful China is (true or not is another matter) – they’re encouraged, justified somehow or publicity-bumped as a helpful way of making the average person care less and not bother. Everyone likes an excuse to not have to change themselves. Whether the news on these high users is critical or not it all chips away at our resolves. Because the economy is a beast that must be fed.

Marginal gains overall though.. I guess anything is better than nothing as much of this is about our mentality overall but I think doing the big things first has more impact. If I don’t do or have some more significant things I’d like because the impact seems unreasonable, I’m more inclined to think about the small stuff too. I don’t want to undermine any larger loss/’sacrifice’ I’ve made by not also paying attention to the smaller stuff. In the end it’s a sort of efficiency thing.

1 People who say there isn’t a problem

2 People who say there is a problem, but it’s too big a problem for individuals to be able to fix.

3 People who say there is a problem, and if individuals do all they can individually, it can be fixed.

4 People who say there is a problem, and if both individuals and governments do all they can, it may be less of a bad thing than it already is and our children may not live in a wasteland or shacks on stilts among the floods. These people probably despair at the lack of GAS shown generally but it doesn’t stop them doing what is ethically right.

Government channeling revenue, COVID being an experiment? Don’t, you’ll be accused of being a conspiracy theorist

Those things are literally conspiracy theories.

What parellel universe is this you speak of? The one I inhabit works the other way round.

A lot of the money poor people receive ends up with rich people but it often comes from other rich people in the first place – they are ones who tend to run the big businesses on which we depend. It’s a lot more complex than you seem to realise.

I visited the local ‘refill shop’, their reusable wet wipes (you wet them from a small ball shape) are biodegradable.

FWIW, all the various ‘Group 4’ things above fall into my original groups 2 or 3.

I visited the local ‘refill shop’, their reusable wet wipes (you wet them from a small ball shape) are biodegradable.

But still, the original reusable wet wipe was, and still is, a wet cloth. Reusable biodegradable wet wipes are not as bad as ‘normal’ wet wipes, but are still really stupid.

There’s a wide range of plastic free sustainable wet wipes these days. The prices have come down loads too. We just replaced like for like.

We do use a wide range of washable flannels too but a wet wipe is very handy on occasion💩

Which bike companies are leading the way on this?

That’s a point, what’s the carbon footprint of STW, what reductions have been made and what’s the plan for Singletrack? Why no link to your environmental goals?

@stwhannah

By the way, what’s all this fascination with wet wipes? The only time I’ve used them at home was over 25 years ago when my daughter was in nappies 😂

Yeah, like I said, wet wipes for wiping a baby’s arse, fine. Otherwise, no need.

There’s a wide range of plastic free sustainable wet wipes these days.

Ah, ‘sustainable’. That old chestnut is a word that does a lot of heavy lifting these days…

Wet wipes are very handy, I keep a stash at home, a pack in the car, a pack in the shed, normally take a pack on a day trip. Lovely little things. We have our reasons and they work well for us.

IHN, be careful, you’re heading down the reductionism route, fairytale perfection doesn’t exist.

I never said it did, but anyone who believes that their disposable wet wipes are ‘sustainable’ needs to give their head a wobble.

Soap and water here. There a lump of soap in the boot of the car too. And a lump of soap in my panniers.

I never said it did, but anyone who believes that their disposable wet wipes are ‘sustainable’ needs to give their head a wobble.

Why not, i use them, then burn them in my chiminea, so no plastic waste.

Has anyone asked how the coconuts get here yet?

IHN, Define your version of environmental sustainability and there will always be somebody come along to say ‘oh, but it’s not perfect’, because most things purchased we can survive without. It’s just a game of fairy tale perfectionism.

My wet wipes are very sustainable in comparison to a gazillion items in the world, biodegradable, compostable, free from plastic, 100% plant fibres, recycled packaging, no chemicals, signed up to sustainability projects, contributing to the world economy, etc etc. They make our life a tiny bit more luxurious and I would recommend them to many who have a similar life to me.

Many of our parents are going to wear more nappies than any baby so  you thinking wet wipes are only ‘okay’ for babies kinda shows you’re in a different phase of life to many. What about the people who have other problems, is it ‘okay’ for them.

Stop the wet wipe hate, it’s a success story👍

I work for a company that makes the ‘spongy’ bits that go into cars. We make 12k tons of it each year and have done for at least the 21years I’ve worked there. It’s not recyclable as it’s laminated to other materials.

Stop buying cars.

Haha^^, a slightly more realistic and achievable goal might be to find a different material or a way to attach said spongy stuff to cars so it can be recycled 🤔

needs to give their head a wobble.

Ablist bingo!