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BIL is selling his 54 plate small van soon as the CAZ comes into force in May and it covers the whole of Greater Manchester. They are a small electrical shop and can't afford the £10 per day charge. Nor can they afford a new van.
Gone would be any plans for me to buy an older van as a day van for bike transport. How are folks going to manage with older campers, especially those on the outlying areas of the zone, but still in it.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester, Bath and Bristol are introducing their own restrictions very soon as well. Although, anyone who lives in the centre of Bath probably doesn’t bother with owning a car, unless they’re among the really lucky ones who has a garage or dedicated parking space, as trying to find anywhere to park is almost impossible anyway. Bristol’s different, as it’s a very much bigger city, and more people live outside the city centre proper.
I’m glad I changed my car last year and went for petrol instead of diesel, my old Octavia wouldn’t have passed the limits set down.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester
For manchester it’s a great move in the effort to reduce local pollution. Although I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”. It’s also disappointing that there are no ULEZ parts to the zone. Those could have made a big difference to areas most affected by road pollution.
It is tough on folks who have vehicles that fail to meet the new standards as they’re caught in the change. But emissions will only reduce if we make an effort to reduce them. The same goes for local pollution. Within my lifetime things have improved with the introduction of compulsory seatbelts, removal of lead from petrol, introduction of emissions limits and catalytic converters, and now electric vehicles including huge non-stinky buses.
That HMG didn’t include the motorway network in the zone is a disappointment. That would have shown a commitment to reducing local pollution and a commitment to the north. But that strays into a different discussion.
It took me a few clicks on the poor CAGM website to find the standards:
The minimum emissions standards for compliant vehicles are:
Van (LGV) (Euro category N1) – Euro 6 diesel, Euro 4 petrol
Hackney carriage and PHV (Euro category M1 and minibus M2) – Euro 6 diesel, Euro 4 petrol
Minibus (Euro category M2) – Euro 6/VI diesel, Euro 4/IV petrol
Coach (Euro category M3) – Euro VI diesel
HGV (Euro category N2 and N3) – Euro VI diesel
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone-map/
For manchester it’s a great move in the effort to reduce local pollution. Although I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”.
Manchester bolloxed the whole thing up in 2008 when they had a referendum about introducing a Congestion Charge zone and using that to fund the expansion of the Metrolink tran network. Naturally, the referendum got hijacked by all the vocal right-wing morons, the debate was really toxic and the vote was an overwhelming no. So now Manchester is in the position where it can't really introduce charging for private motorists "because of the referendum".
When will people realise that you don't ask the public policy questions via a yes/no referendum? They're invariably a disaster.
My car is 8 years old (2013 plate) but does not meet the requirements for the Birmingham Clean Air Zone.
Renault Megane Diesel, £30/yr RFL.
I was surprised.
That'll be less trips to Birmingham for me now. Cleaner air? I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.Central Brum is a huge area, there will be 1000's of lorries and vans that need to deliver there each day.
The M6 Jn. 6 to 8, has a constant 60mph speed limit to 'reduce emissions', yet the most polluting vehicles are limited to 60 anyway.
The Metro trams have been cancelled for the next month due to reliability issues with the new vehicles. Buses are replacing them. That'll be diesel buses going where the current electric vehicles go. There is no joined up thinking, Politicians say they want to reduce emissions, yet still allow vehicles in, but charge them. It seems like an easy way to raise funds.
That’ll be less trips to Birmingham for me now. Cleaner air? I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.Central Brum is a huge area, there will be 1000’s of lorries and vans that need to deliver there each day.
Do you have a source for Clean Air Zones not working? There are enough working examples in the world that there should be some reasonable data on it. I personally don’t know, found a couple of news articles but from sources I’d expect to lean towards them working.
Politicians say they want to reduce emissions, yet still allow vehicles in, but charge them. It seems like an easy way to raise funds.
Whats wrong with charging the polluters? Seems perfectly fair to me and I drive an ageing diesel van. And it’s not like it’s a surprise, it’s been clear ever since London’s zone stuck that other cities would follow suit.
The Metro trams have been cancelled for the next month due to reliability issues with the new vehicles. Buses are replacing them. That’ll be diesel buses going where the current electric vehicles go.
Whats the alternative? Are they able to source a fleet of zero emission (at point of use) vehicles but have chosen diesel instead to cover the gap?
A lot of people commute into Manchester, a congestion charge on the scale proposed would have been catastrophically bad for many of them. I used to commute in, took me between 50 mins to an hour most of the time. There was no way I could have done it on public transport, would have taken hours, 4 mile walk, 2 buses and the tram. I'd have had no flexibility on hours which I needed. I chose where I lived based on proximity to work, unfortunately the factory shut not soon after, after that it was a case of take work where I could find it.
A lot of congestion in Manchester is down to poor road layout, the congestion got a lot worse when they introduced the intemittant bus lanes which didn't help the buses much but really messed things up for everyone else. The other major issue was the number of traffic lights, massively increased journey times and made it a lot easier to use the residential streets as cut throughs. They should reduce the number of lights on the main arterial roads which would have sped up the traffic and made it less attractive to cut through the residential areas.
There's a lot council's could do to reduce congestion / pollution before hammering motorists.
FWIW my main car is also not Birmingham or ULEZ compliant, sailed through the last MOT on its emmissions, still got a,good few years motoring left in. I'd love an electric car, I've no worries about range etc. but the cost of them is crazy, we looked at a fiat 500 electric, petrol model was £13k (which we bought), electric £27k, just couldn't justify it.
I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.
In Bristol the charge for lorries will be £100. I reckon that's enough to put a few off. Charging people 5p for carrier bag was enough to pretty much stop their use.
It was one if the reasons I ditched my personal use Transit and replaced it with a Berlingo multispace car for doggo and bike duties. The issue is that the zone covers the whole of the Greater Manchester area and includes areas like Ramsbottom to the north and bordering on my district.
Going to be a whole load of T4/early T5's etc caught up in this.
Going to be a whole load of T4/early T5’s etc caught up in this.
If its for the odd weekend away then its probably not a deal breaker. If its a daily driver then the new zones will likely have the desired effect
It covers very rural and non congested areas.
Yes there needs to be change however I feel it needs to be assisted by grants.
Also is scraping a load of vehicles that are serviceable good in the long term or does it just move to pollution off shore to some other country?
The public transport service levels in places like rammy or horwich parts of Wigan are shit
Renault Megane Diesel, £30/yr RFL.
I was surprised.
That’ll be less trips to Birmingham for me now
Euro6 was quite a big change and made diesels much cleaner in terms of harmful emissions to our health. Have you considered the train? Might be cheaper for you now.
Sheffield is doing similar to Manchester and their press release made it quite clear that trade related traffic made up for a disproportionately large amount of emissions. If they were to take it further I think a good start would be to ban parking in bus lanes even whilst they're not active. There would be so much less traffic if the arterial routes could be dual laned as intended rather than being used as a private carpark.
I live close to Bath and my private van gets charged if I want to drive into the centre (I very rarely do). It has forced most of the commercial traffic onto the roads around the city centre.
I think all traffic should be banned from city centres but we don't have a viable public transport infrastructure or cycling/walking provisions for that. You also have to factor in that people are lazy and think they have a right to drive anywhere.
Nor can they afford a new van.
If he wants his business to continue how can he afford not to? Presuming his vehicle is necessary to it now?
I mean let's say for arguments sake that his current van dies on him? what then?
A lot of congestion in Manchester is down to poor road layout, the congestion got a lot worse when they introduced the intemittant bus lanes which didn’t help the buses much but really messed things up for everyone else.
Machester's buses themselves screw the whole thing up. There are dozens of competing bus companies, all wanting to operate the most profitable routes (as they're all deregulated, it's a free market etc). That means you have roads where there are 4 or 5 different bus companies running essentially the same service and roads 100m off to the side where there are no buses at all.
Most of the services go into Piccadilly Gardens leading to a massive logjam around there.
A lot of the roads into Manchester are dual carriageways, overpasses and so on so it's specifically created a generation of car users and Manchester makes a LOT of money out of its city centre car parks so they're not really that keen on discouraging motorists. Catch 22. Clog up the city centre but when they park up, it's a good revenue generator.
Machester’s buses themselves screw the whole thing up.
Never known a place like it for bus congestion TBH.
We're in a similar position. My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
She need to carry all sorts of equipment including lawnmowers, strimmers and other various heavy tools.
We also use the van for the odd biking day out (we mostly use the car for this these days). My car lease goes back in June next year and we're going down to one vehicle.
Our options are to see if we can make an electric van work (range, charging, affordability etc), or lease a new van that won't get caught in the charge. Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn't really feasible.
I get that something needs to be done, but this type of approach always hits the poorer the most. Big companies usually have a fleet of current lease vehicles anyway, so it won't really affect them.
Oh bums
Isn't there a financial scheme set to launch in January to specifically help micro businesses like your wife's?
I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”.
As said there are plenty of folk that rely on their own vehicles for getting to work, not all have the option of public transport or the means to just move or buy a new car.
You can't use the stick without also having a carrot, better, affordable mass transit at times people need it would be a great start.
That HMG didn’t include the motorway network in the zone is a disappointment.
Great idea, how do you propose the zone gets bypassed? All you are then doing is shifting the traffic onto smaller, less suitable roads.
Manchester and Glasgow are two cities that spring to mind as having arterial routes round or through their centres, you can debate the rights and wrongs of that but they aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn’t really feasible.
How much less do you expect the lease on a new van to be?
My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
She need to carry all sorts of equipment including lawnmowers, strimmers and other various heavy tools.
We also use the van for the odd biking day out (we mostly use the car for this these days). My car lease goes back in June next year and we’re going down to one vehicle.
Our options are to see if we can make an electric van work (range, charging, affordability etc), or lease a new van that won’t get caught in the charge. Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn’t really feasible.
Or increase her prices. People paying for her services need to pay for their share of the pollution.
Oh bums
I've not looked at the map yet, but I expect my answer will be similar
Well, I've just checked, and my 54 plate diesel T5 is charge-free until June 2023, from when it will cost me a tenner to drive into the Zone.
That’s huuuuuge. I live just over the border in Holmfirth West Yorks and most of my routes to the western motorway network are buggered except for the perma-lorry-queue at Mottram. I’ll be able to make plans but astonished this doesn’t start with the M60 as a boundary, after all the issue is more about the combined effect of congestion and emissions and less about administrative boundaries.
I'm looking forward to buying a used van at knock down price.
They have been sky high for too long!
but astonished this doesn’t start with the M60 as a boundary, after all the issue is more about the combined effect of congestion and emissions
I briefly thought the same, then remembered what a stinky shitshow Washway Road is going through Sale and Timperley.
If he wants his business to continue how can he afford not to? Presuming his vehicle is necessary to it now?
I mean let’s say for arguments sake that his current van dies on him? what then?
Posted 1 hour ago
Buys a 2nd hand one.....?
I briefly thought the same, then remembered what a stinky shitshow Washway Road is going through Sale and Timperley.
Fair point. Every ‘my area’s quiet’ can be countered with ‘mine’s rammed’
I've just checked my diesel '02 VW T4 factory kombi and it's charge free for Manchester and more relevent for me the Bradford ulez that starts in Jan '22.
This whole CAZ thing had somehow entirely passed me by until this post. I live in Trafford and have just bought a 14 plate connect at the current inflated prices as I need it to move equipment for work.
Hopefully will be eligible for the small business funding, but the kicker is I'm moving to New Mills soon- if I move before the funding comes through I won't get any as it's just outside the GM area. What a F******g nightmare.
I assume the prices for these vehicles will plummet when the charges come in.
I’ve just checked my diesel ’02 VW T4 factory kombi and it’s charge free for Manchester
Presume only charge-free for year one with vans kicking in in 2023??
Dunno, on the v5 it's described as "van side windows" "M1" and "diesel car" and the ved is car rate not van.
For those with businesses worried about replacing vans, there is central government funding to help with that. In Sheffield that comes in the form of "local businesses who operate vans: £3,500 grant or interest-free loan". I imagine it will be broadly similar elsewhere. Obviously that's not going to buy a whole van and maybe it will have restrictive terms, but it may bridge the gap.
https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/pollution-nuisance/clean-air-zone
Dunno, on the v5 it’s described as “van side windows” “M1” and “diesel car” and the ved is car rate not van.
Ooh, we need to get to the bottom of this pronto mate.
(older crew cab van owner living just inside GM here)
You can check your vehicle's liable for here:
https://multiple-vehiclecheck-pay.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/what_would_you_like_to_do
We’re in a similar position. My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
Buy a Berling Multispace / Dispatch Tepee / VW Caravelle or equivilent van based 'car' and get a local print place to do some of that perforated 'one way vision' sticker stuff over the windows so it looks like a van.
We're right on 'the edge' of the zone, but I can see many small businesses not being able to afford a new van, even with the small grants. I can see the used prices of Berlingo Cars going up - all you need to do is remove the seats' and you've got a van !
Loads of older VW campers round here. Fortunately it's not private cars that are hit. I do cycle in to work now, but take the canal for 13 miles. Too many broken bones commuting on the road.
Like others have said, it's not always practical to ditch a car - we both work outside the city centre. It's a good 30 minutes walk from the station to the office (both at opposite ends of Manchester.
You can check your vehicle’s liable for here:
Unfortunately it's inconclusive as it comes back with "no charge" for MCR but also says "temporary exemption" below that.
My hunch is that I will be charged when the exemption ends, as the Gov.uk search just classed my vehicle "van" rather than "dual purpose vehicle". Although it's also unclear whether DPVs will be exempted anyway.
I bought a new van recently and euro 6 emissions were minimum criteria. I work in bath a lot so need to be able to get tools there etc. Emissions were a part but reliability and saving on fuel were a factor. Ev vans are not currently affordable for me or have the range carrying a load. I get it and am willing to do my part but it does feel a bit like punishing businesses/self employed. In bath you can drive a big diesel 4x4 around or anything with a v8 in it without being charged. It just doesn’t seem fair that non commercial vehicles are exempt
Unfortunately it’s inconclusive as it comes back with “no charge” for MCR but also says “temporary exemption” below that.
It means you'll start paying from June 2023
It means you’ll start paying from June 2023
I think so, but the lady on the helpline wasn't really sure either.
She said there's some clarification coming at the end of this month.
maybe instead of punishing small business owners, they should charge the c***s turning deansgate into a carpark with their lambo's and hot hatch's, that get about 5mpg.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester, Bath and Bristol are introducing their own restrictions very soon as well.
Good news, and well overdue. What's being missed in all the whataboutery is why these zones are being introduced: because air quality in our major cities is illegally poor, and it’s killing people.
I've had a good look at this today and Greater Manchester's approach is much bolder compared to the others as it's not a city-centre or even city-wide mandate but regional (clue is it's a Greater Manchester administrative regional initiative and not a Manchester 'citywide' initiative). Whilst the others are focused on the city-centre only, this is the equivalent of the West Midlands conurbation or West Yorkshire from a size, population and density perspective. Thinking of it as 'Manchester' (which is easy to do, particular for people unconnected with the region) is wildly inaccurate.
maybe instead of punishing small business owners
There is no skim off small businesses, how will the councillors live?
It's much better this way for councillors for 4 overwhelming reasons ..
1) We ship the problem to a 3rd world country.
At the moment it might just be viable for Johhny's Fridge and Washing machine repair business but just make it impossible to make money and Mr &Mrs Smith can just get a new fridge/washing machine etc. made in China. China burn the coal, send it a few thousand miles then when a major haulier drops it off they pay some skim and the councillors get rich.
The old one will need to be disposed of and .. well no-one can afford to do that then pay the extra cost for taking it to the recycling company so the council can skim off that as well..
Then the council re-cycling company can send it off to a different 3rd world country where some 7yr old gets employed burning it off to retrieve some copper.
2) This cuts down on the malingerers and scroungers... like old people who only pay the same council tax but require loads of services.. or families who have kids that need schools etc. Low paid people like carers, teaching assistants etc. won't be needed and lets face it they can't afford to travel to the vulnerable anyway... bit of luck a load will die and no longer be drawing on council funds and others will just move somewhere more sane to live out their remaining years and families can just be made to feel unwelcome, especially poor ones.
3) With those old people and families gone the council can attract young singletons who use few resources and can be packed into tower blocks, the most council tax dense form of 'housing'. (I use housing in it's widest sense) the can have communal (if rat infested bins) and if they do what many humans do, meet and have babies they can sod off somewhere else so not as to burned the council.
4) Chucking up towerblocks they meet the Govt quota and even as a labour authority might see some extra cash or grants.. remember every S106 loan they can take out is an opportunity for councillors to feed at the trough of plenty.