Also the cost of all these new vans. Who's paying...
The costs will be filtered down.
So peoples goods n services get more expensive. Government gets more VAT
I was a bit gutted when I finally after probably 20 years got a t5.1 van in April. I hadn't even heard of the clean air zone. I use mine as a daily driver from marple to north manchester, so its in the zone, gutting, however now im kind of thinking I might be ok as even though its a LWB van, on the v5 document its classed as a car as its a shuttle, Maybe it will be ok??
I sold my berlingo in April to buy a T5.1
I had no idea about this charger, my new van is a euro5. IT appears however a shuttle T5 is classed as a car, I think i'll be all ok even though its a LWB and looks like a bloody van!
I will always vote against any council that initiates this kind rubbish scheme. This scheme is only meant for bureaucrats to justify their importance. They punish the small business or people who are self employed as large business can afford whatever they levied on them. CAZ ... my foot.
Vote them out or you will be slowly punishing yourself.
This scheme is only meant for bureaucrats to justify their importance.
That's very nearly the dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.
Yeah, I've got skin in the game, I commute on an arterial route into MCR city centre. The air quality is abysmal. It's even worse on deansgate where I work. XR shutting it down a couple of years back was amazing, the quality of the air leaped within a day.
It's not as if the govt aren't providing
Financial support to businesses for updating or modify their vehicles to avoid the charges. Also if you're local it's capped at £10 per day. Even if that's passed on to customers in full....it's ONLY a ****ing tenner FFS!
It is an ambitious scheme and I know something has to be done.
It might be better if it covered all relevant vehicles (not just commercials and private vans) and was only a fiver a day though.
I take the point about the referendum previously making it awkward, but it does seem a bit of a political decision rather than doing exactly the right thing.
My local council are planning a ULEZ calle a Zero emissions zone.
I checked with them and within this zone the burning of wood in a "Exempt appliance" (stove) in homes will still be allowed. Being that it "was estimated that wood burning was between 23 and 31% of the urban derived PM2.5 in London and Birmingham", and " Coupled with the poor correlation with daily temperature (R2 = 0.12- 0.57) this suggests that current urban wood burning is in large part decorative and is not being used primary heating" and "Wood smoke also contain several toxic air pollutants including benzene, formaldhyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) such as Benzo[a]pyrene (B[a]P), contributing to the deterioration of urban air quality."
Clean air zones have my vote 100% but do it properly or you are just wasting your time and inconveniencing alot of people while categoricaly not meeting your aims from day 1.
Mixed feelings about these zones. As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. 'Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it'. How does that work when you are on a hourly rate? The Employers wont be interested in £2.5k pay rise for you.
Use public transport. Hmm, that'd be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Round here they have spent multi millions on a park and ride scheme. But it is useless for workers, it only opens from 7 till 7pm, buses at 15 minute intervals.Why wait in a bus stop for 10 mins, when it wont take much more than that to actually drive into town?
Town centres are dying, so why do all the buses go to the centre, when the shopping is now on the outskirts? And why carry 4 bags of shopping when you can park 50 metres from the shop entrance, no walking to a bus stop, no mixing with the general public,and no waiting. The bus service is not appealing to a vast majority of people.
Buy a newer vehicle. Yes, right, when you struggle to pay for a £2k car, going out to get a £7k car isnt going to happen.
As for air quality, isnt it the best it has been for 50+ years?
I remember the 80's, almost smog conditions some days, cars, and lorries, that gave out more smoke than a coal fire. Things have improved massively. Local Government has let us down with their lack of planning and management of traffic. Punishing drivers for air quality is missing the point, there are no credible alternatives for traffic at the moment, so they just try and reduce traffic by charging them.
Good news, and well overdue. What’s being missed in all the whataboutery is why these zones are being introduced: because air quality in our major cities is illegally poor, and it’s killing people.
100% this. Living in Prestwich became incredibly unpleasant at times, downright revolting at others mainly due to the stench and foul-tasting clouds of crap coming out of your T4s, T5s, second-hand vans, cars, whatever. We moved far away principally because of the obvious health risks and it's all because of vehicles. Something needs to change and fast.
It's not punishing anyone, it's taking things away that are causing bigger problems than how Fred gets his ladders to a roofing job or how Tracy drives 5 miles to work. Think of an alternative.
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase "punished" is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
That’s very nearly the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on this forum.
Nope .. what you just wrote possibly is. Why does this need to be done to (get STW) Farmer Johns?
A 5 mile / 15 min drive from somewhere like Chunal to Torside becomes a 50 mile 1h20 drive unless you pay the tax.
How does that *need" to be done? Very specifically for this route ... if there is no specific and valid reason for this specific route then it's bureaucrats flexing and not being arsed.
Imagine being a low paid dog walker or self employed care assistant, mobile physio .. not even living in Greater Manchester and telling customers who also don't live in greater manchester, "Sorry I can't take your business you any more ... "
or "I'm stuck at Torside I need a new tyre fitting can you come out" .. "Um sorry no, I'd have to pay the Manchester Tax" so that's another £100 I need to charge to cover my time and the £10.
You can be pretty certain that the council executive and the principal non elected officers will be personally making a mint out of this. They will have shares or own businesses to do the collections.. or be getting a skim off the top.
As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. ‘Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it’.
The whole idea of a "daily/monthly bill" is a horrific way to prevent them/us managing our own money.
It's not "a daily bill" so much as the idea of trying to break everything down into "per day" or "per month" with what seems like a fairly low number by itself but cumulatively becomes crippling.
(It's not like the same person/business doesn't have a stack of £10/d/month etc. bills already going out)
This applies the same to families and small businesses.
Lets be honest at least and just say this is a tax of £3600 a year...
Use public transport. Hmm, that’d be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Yeah and I can just imagine someone dragging a car tyre and a compressor and tyre fitting machine on the bus
or a bike they are collecting to fix then optimising it by collecting 3 bikes whilst they are out. It's obviously not going to happen.
Your plumber turns up with a huge backpack .. doesn't have all the required correct parts so they jump on a bus???
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase “punished” is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
This is a very valid point.
Think of an alternative.
Jesus wept, straight out the Vote Leave playbook that one.
Does it not cross your mind that perhaps the alternative doesn't exist and it's not the job of person B to solve Person A's piss poor planning?
But yeah, I'm sure you'll be alright.
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase “punished” is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
You need to substitute "should" for "must".
Surely some of the cash raised by the charges in these zones will be directed towards public transport provision?
I live on a main road within the proposed Manchester zone and this morning the taste of fumes from cars was noticible whilst cycling to catch another form of public transport.
There are days at the moment where I need use my i.c.e vehicles to get to work. So hopefully at some point the public transport option will be both cheap and regular enough to be used?
Electric cars are still too pricey for my limited use, electric mopeds are very close to becoming a viable option. But it's there any point in spending a pile of cash on a emoped and insurance when a bus trip might only be £1.50?
I didn't smell any coal or multi fuel fires and I doubt I'd smell them during the summer months? I do own a modern log burner and have successfully reduced my gas usage by burning the 'ruf compressed wood briquettes'
Is like to see an improvement in both air quality and a reduction in short journey car use. I cycled past several cars parked up in timed bike lanes today, so maybe a few more wardens out there as well? 😃
Jesus wept, straight out the Vote Leave playbook that one.
Does it not cross your mind that perhaps the alternative doesn’t exist and it’s not the job of person B to solve Person A’s piss poor planning?
ignoring the vote leave weirdness of your reply, I don't get how person A's level of planning is responsible for the fact that person B and all the other persons driving fossil fuel-burning vehicles is causing dangerous levels of pollution in towns and cities.
https://www.iqair.com/us/uk/england/manchester
Handy tool.
I'll clarify that I agree air quality needs to improve, I just sometimes feel the local and national governments take the easiest cash rich option.
I'd be interested into knowing how many commercial property in the Greater Manchester area are heating with oil? And how that stacks up with the ppm from cars.
Also feel it should be banded like Germany. So high spots of pollution are under tighter control.
I just sometimes feel the local and national governments take the easiest cash rich option.
I agree - I'd much prefer an outright ban.
I’d be interested into knowing how many commercial property in the Greater Manchester area are heating with oil? And how that stacks up with the ppm from cars.
In Bristol, diesel vehicles are the dominant source of poor urban air quality. I'd be surprised if Manchester was different.
vThere was no way I could have done it on public transport, would have taken hours, 4 mile walk, 2 buses and the tram
Would it have worked if you could have driven to a big park-and-ride car park and taken the tram from there? I think that expecting people to use public transport all the way from their front door to their place of work is doomed to failure.
Park and ride with safe bike storage, plenty of parking spaces, good CCTV across the whole site, and reasonably priced and convenient public transport that gets priority* over cars is the only way it can work.
* so dedicated bus lanes that taxis can't use, traffic lights that change as buses and trams approach, sensible routes, short-cuts that cars can't use, etc etc. Trams / buses need to be clean, comfortable, and air-conditioned (year round, so cool in the summer and dry in the winter).
Good solution Flaperon.
There's a park and ride car park under the junction of M60 and A580 near the end of the M61 on the north side of Manchester. Been there maybe 4 years, and although I'm not past it every day I can't ever recall seeing a car parked in it.
Or increase her prices. People paying for her services need to pay for their share of the pollution.
And all her competitors will face the same problem. I doubt anyone picks a landscape gardner on £10/day difference.
Mixed feelings about these zones. As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. ‘Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it’. How does that work when you are on a hourly rate?
it doesn't but then people on an hourly rate set by an employer don't generally have to drive a heavily poluting van!
The Employers wont be interested in £2.5k pay rise for you.
Well, if it eventually becomes all vehicles employers WILL start to think about it - because getting staff will be harder. That might mean relocating offices, enabling even more WFH, subsiding transport or pay increases to compete.
Use public transport. Hmm, that’d be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Its a chicken and egg thing though - part of the reason buses don't run 24 h is there isn't demand.
Why wait in a bus stop for 10 mins, when it wont take much more than that to actually drive into town?
1. You are timing it wrong if you have to wait 10 mins.
2. If the drive into town (and find parking) is only 10 mins you probably aren't the typical P&R user (either time of day, location you are going etc)
3. Is the bus itself not travelling faster than cars with bus lanes etc?
Town centres are dying, so why do all the buses go to the centre, when the shopping is now on the outskirts?
Its a hub and spoke type model insn't it? Probably are busses to the major out of town retain parks, but they start in the centre. But is that why town centres are dying or is it online shopping?
As for air quality, isnt it the best it has been for 50+ years?
Possibly (I don't know but I'll take your word for it) but I'd expect infant mortality has probably been falling for 50 yrs too but nobody would suggest we shouldn't bother with improvements that would make it better still. Air pollution is associated with 40,000 deaths a year in the UK. So over the course of the decade potentially more than Covid - and we basically shut the country to sort that out!
@terrahawk
Yep, a ban is best for air quality.
Political suicide for the party that suggests it though. How likely is it that a councillor will suggest something that will cut off their supply of money and prestige?
That’s the problem, those that have the power to make the big changes are the ones that benefit from things not changing.
I don’t see a way out of that situation.
One other question. And if its been asked or stated sorry...
Have they said how much the charge will reduce the levels?
I like the German model where its zoned, its been in force for years and has had a steady roll out and requirements changed and tightened up progressively.
I remember being in bremem 10yrs ago and we had to park up and get on a tram as Olafs car wasn't new enough to be allowed in that suburb. Thing was there was good transport links and infrastructure so it didn't actually inconvenience any one much.
Obviously we're crap and are so far behind and our public transport systems are needing a huge overhall that's not HS2.
We punch through schemes like this that just seem to split people. I don't think anyone disagrees with the goals or I'd hope not.
ignoring the vote leave weirdness of your reply, I don’t get how person A’s level of planning is responsible for the fact that person B and all the other persons driving fossil fuel-burning vehicles is causing dangerous levels of pollution in towns and cities.
Because person A (vote leave) set in motion a proposal that they had no intention or plan to make work so left it to person B (successive government administrations) to sort out leading to the bit of a mess we see today.
A bit like banning whole sections of commercial or commuter traffic (stick) with no with no practical alternative (carrot) in place.
Meanwhile everyone within the pollution zone is left with the trade and commercial service provision of a rural area but with several times the population density.
Your proposal sounds good if you don't actually think about the implications for more than a split second but in reality is utterly rubbish.
I've actually studied this stuff and it's well established that you need the solutions in place before the fact as it just won't work otherwise. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing something about air quality, quite the opposite, but your solution is actually just a bigger problem.
1. You are timing it wrong if you have to wait 10 mins.
Assuming you've never used the bus services in somewhere like Glasgow which run in a +/- 10 mins/maybe never basis.
Isn't Manchester city council putting a huge sum of cash on the table to reduce the cost of switching from petrol/diesel vehicles to greener options for businesses in the area?
On a different note I wonder if there will be any cameras between my house and the nearest supermarket when the inclusion of polluting vehicles includes private cars? Not a huge distance involved and I only go once a week, I could walk and use my IKEA trailer but sometimes time is at a premium. 🤔
I could walk and use my IKEA trailer but sometimes time is at a premium.
Ah, here's the root of the problem! Everyone's time is at a premium, it's just that sitting in a car in a jam with the engine running belting out pollution is seen as an acceptable way to spend some of that premium time.
I only ever go shopping off peak. Late evening after the traffic has gone. The advent of later trading hours made it possible.
Poly
And all her competitors will face the same problem. I doubt anyone picks a landscape gardner on £10/day difference.
No they don't ... it might superficially seem like that unless you actually do this like squirrelking which is what makes it so nasty because it will put some people out of business.
It's essentially a postcode lottery for small businesses.
Just take the example I used earlier...(in which neither customer nor service provider lives in Greater Manchester) but the service provider is now unable business in many areas that are not even in Greater Manchester either.
Currently A 5 mile / 15 min drive from somewhere like Chunal to Torside becomes a 50 mile 1h20 drive unless you pay the tax.
Lets illustrate it a bit STW ... someone lives in Hebden Bridge or Tod and services bikes for a living.
Get a map and draw a circle ...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Greater+Manchester/@53.5061807,-2.6002469,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x487ba654d3882eb1:0x2cc7d82221c68081!8m2!3d53.4575955!4d-2.1578377
Or take John (whomever the Hive assigned the ladder) ... lets say they live somewhere outside Rawtenstall. Their market for Ramsbottom and Bury has gone so the need to compete in Burnley and Blackburn...
It's no longer viable for them to collect bikes from Littleborough or Rochdale so now they are competing with bike service companies in Halifax and Possibly Huddersfield.
Or take this business (Animal behaviour trainer)
Yellow Gate, A624, Chunal, Glossop SK13 6JY
They don't even live in Greater Manchester but to get to Torside etc. they have to either drive through or a 50 mile+ journey.
They are being put out of business to clean up the air quality HERE
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4791004,-1.91438,3a,75y,280.01h,93.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sql9GHW7eYdXzGzPHPOxN5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Isn’t Manchester city council putting a huge sum of cash on the table to reduce the cost of switching from petrol/diesel vehicles to greener options for businesses in the area?
What £3500 toward a 20-30k+ vehicle assuming you have that amount of money spare, can remortgage your house, assuming you own one! or are able to access appropriate levels of credit. It's easy on a MP's salary, CEO of Ford or when you're King of the North.
All of these things are subject to terms. The government backed loans are subject to a bidding process i.e. some will lose out, they don't just hand it out willy nilly to everyone like many imply.
Oh and you get to sell your current vehicle at knock down prices and buy at the highest prices.
And the government have enjoyed approximately 10 years worth of banded tax revenue, when alternatives were prohibitively expensive and in the case of vans and heavier vehicles not even available to buy.
How they have got away with extending it to the administrative area of Greater Manchester as opposed to city centres like all the other schemes. It covers areas which are semi-rural into Cheshire stopping at Derbyshire that don't suffer from city centre traffic problems.
There’s a park and ride car park under the junction of M60 and A580 near the end of the M61 on the north side of Manchester. Been there maybe 4 years, and although I’m not past it every day I can’t ever recall seeing a car parked in it.
Apart from every day where there’s definitely cars parked there, today included when I drove past. Admittedly it’s quieter post lockdown, but it is getting busier.
How they have got away with extending it to the administrative area of Greater Manchester as opposed to city centres like all the other schemes. It covers areas which are semi-rural into Cheshire stopping at Derbyshire that don’t suffer from city centre traffic problems.
It covers many rural areas and also cuts off many that are outside Greater Manchester.
Some are cut off completely, it's impossible to get in or out with ANY vehicle whilst others it turns a 5-10 minute drive into one of hours.
Big Win for GM as it can now TAX people who don't even live inside it's borders, merely need to cross a hundred meters of open moorland to get from part of their farm to another.
How are they monitoring all these rural roads?
With the Edinburgh LEZ they flat out said they won't have cameras on 80% of the routes into it (all the wee backstreets), though would have a ANPR camera car driving around to catch folk inside
whilst others it turns a 5-10 minute drive into one where one has to pay to pollute
, ftfy
And iirc agricultural vehicles are exempt.
I haven’t read up on the Manchester one but live on the edge of Bristol. I understand from this thread that they are different - the Manchester one seems a bit odd being over such a wide area rather than just the main bit where the pollution is most intense.
It feels like the trade vehicles are going to be needed for delivery to businesses in the zone and going about their daily jobs going to peoples houses etc. Surely they should focus firstly on trying to remove as many private commuter cars going into the middle (assuming viable other alternatives are available) and making sure that public transport is as clean as possible?
My car is petrol euro 6 so mine won’t be captured by the ulez charges in Bristol or Bath, but I do my upmost not to drive into either anyway if I can. I’ve found a route to where I sometimes bike that I think pretty much skirts round the ulez. Other than that with the commute to work I either cycle or use the new (ish) Voi electric scooters that are being piloted.
The Voi scooters work out a similar cost to the bus and much much cheaper than paying to park the car.
I would say they probably need some refinement before they get a bigger take up - they are a bit twitchy (think they could do with slightly wider handlebars) and the throttle response is terrible on them. Car drivers are also pretty bad towards cyclists and ‘scooterists’ I find. I’m pretty responsible on the road on both Voi and bike - stopping at all the lights and following the rules - yet I still get close passed and beeped at sometimes. These attitudes need to change to give more people the confidence to use these other transport types.
GM ULEZ has 850 cameras planned. I imagine the number will go up as they clamp down on rat running to avoid them. I expect Google maps will have a "avoid camera" routing option.
Surely they should focus firstly on trying to remove as many private commuter cars going into the middle
You'd think so, but that's going to affect way more voters.
And as above, there was a previous referendum - which should really be disregarded in light of the increased urgency of the climate crisis - but I suspect Burnham is picking his battles.
My car is petrol euro 6 so mine won’t be captured by the ulez charges in Bristol or Bath
you'd have to remove 3 euro 6 petrol cars for every 1 euro 5 diesel to get the same reduction in NOx. Not saying it shouldn't stretch to private vehicles (of which I'm sure plenty are still euro5), just putting some numbers to the reasoning.
but I suspect Burnham is picking his battles.
Aye he's already wound up the bus companies (rightly in my opinion) with his plan to re-regulate the buses., and make simple travel options between the buses and trams. Most folk are on his side with those plans. I can imagine that he thinks/hopes the carrot of having cheaper, simpler congestion free travel into the city city will be all that's needed.
kilo
, ftfy
Um no it targets specific people and has ZERO link to how much they pollute. (as if that is actually anything real anyway)
It's simply a punishment tax especially had on those who only need to cross 100m of Greater Manchester... I regularly drive round the M25 the long way to avoid paying the punishment tax for using the bridge.
And iirc agricultural vehicles are exempt.
What has that to do with these specific punishment being doled out by the corrupt council?
Are you suggesting a farmer should climb in a tractor to drive across the GM boundary and back out or just put their more efficient vehicle on a trailer to to avoid the punishment tax from GM?
I have just authorised an advert on ebay/autotrader for brand new Mercedes Esprinter L2H2, White on business contract hire.
Standard van, no extras, no modifications allowed. 6000mls per annum. Vehicle has 85 mile range but i found when i used one in town it got 100mls through regen etc.
12 month, £199 per month + VAT with free charger (Residential) included.
I have 12 of them and they will be gone by monday at that price. We have done them because a) they cost us shitloads of money (£50k+), b) They have quite a bit of bonus riding on them and c) We want customers to get a charger installed, get used to using ev and then in 12mths when better products come out we can put them into them. A bit like phones.
Consider
12 x £199 = £2388
you get 100% VAT and tax deduction as a business so at 20% thats £1910.40, at 40% thats £1432.80.
Hand it back in 12 months time and walk away or have another look at other EV already having your own charger ready.
I can put one of my guys details up if anyone is interested but please dont ask for different colours etc. Only change we can make is mileage and price goes up accordingly.
Um no it targets specific people and has ZERO link to how much they pollute.
But they still pollute though, much like my extra £100 on a parking permit when I had a diesel last year, didn’t use it much but I was still part of the problem
Are you suggesting a farmer should climb in a tractor to drive across the GM boundary and back out or just put their more efficient vehicle on a trailer to to avoid the punishment tax from GM?
I’m replying to your random point that a farmer can’t get the 100 yards from one bit of his farm to another with the point that agricultural vehicles, the things used by farmers, are exempt. If your mythical farmer doesn’t need a tractor maybe they could just walk your mythical 100 meters. I have no idea where the trailer bit comes from and I’ve no real desire for you to explain it either.
Didn’t realise this was council corruption though, is there a link to that?
