We should be driving in consideration of the lowest common denominators.

Agreed, with the caveat that the lowest common denominator is far too low. Remember that “Britain’s Worst Drivers” Tv show from a few years ago?

As the more sanctimonious corners of STW like to tell us on driving threads, “driving is a privilege, not a right.” Anyone incapable of driving to a base standard (be that technical control or things like courteousness as you say) should be removed from the roads until they can demonstrate otherwise. Then we can worry about the lowest common denominator safe in the knowledge that they have some vague semblance of aptitude to start with.

Compulsory re-tests for me, every 5 years sounds reasonable. I am re-tested or response driving every 3 years and it just becomes normal.

@crazy-legs I read somewhere that ‘financial hardship’ is no longer an acceptable reason for avoiding a ban?

Taxi driver round here used it recently to escape a ban.

The worst drivers – statistically – are young drivers. They’ve only just been tested. They know exactly what the rules are. They just don’t care. People who speed know they’re not supposed to, people who drink and drive know they’re not supposed to, people who drive on the phone know they shouldn’t. Test them all tomorrow and they’d all pass and the next day they’d carry on driving as they alway do.

The worst for accidents but if you want to improve the general standard of driving, rather than target incidents that are committed by your examples re-tests are the way to go. Terrible day to day driving seems to heavily weighted towards 50+ drivers around here.

Greater investment in alternatives to get people out of cars

Amazed it took so many posts to get to this idea. On a cycling forum.

But I’d guess the sort of people who think it’s fine to text whilst driving will probably think “it’s only a week, sod it, the chances of me getting caught are remote.”

I dunno – I reckon most infringements are committed because people are fairly certain they’re not going to get caught. For instance, there’s a section of elevated dc very near my home that has a couple of speed cameras around the middle. Up till recently, limit was 50mph. Now, it’s an open secret that they never flash – something to do with them being near train tracks and other urban myths – anyway, I’ve seen the odd chancer, police cars and ambulances screaming through them in the past with no activation. But pretty much everybody else slowed to 50. Recently, limit reduced to 40mph. Still no sign of them being switched on – in fact, the day after the limit was changed, I myself went through them at 50ish, because I was too dumb to have seen the “new speed limits” signs, and also, I’m obviously a granny killing, child maiming machine. 😀 Again, no flash. But why is it that everybody drives through at 40 now? Are they afraid they’ll have been switched on and they’ll be the ones caught? Yes, speed cameras are blunt instruments, but their effect on changing behaviour (for that particular 200 yd stretch) is significant.

Witness the change in traffic flow through roadworks with Average Speed cameras rather than spot checking Gatsos. It’s remarkable how behaviour changes when people know there’s a significant risk of being caught. Combine a significant risk with a not-insignificant inconvenience for a few weeks and I think behaviour could be changed.

Anyway, it’s pie-in-the-sky – I reckon it would be almost impossible to enforce without significant civil liberty implications.

Also, even though I quoted you, I think most of my answer was expanding further on my pie-in-the-sky answer. 😀

I read somewhere that ‘financial hardship’ is no longer an acceptable reason for avoiding a ban?

The wording isn’t ‘financial hardship,’ it’s exceptional hardship or something similar. Like, if your employer would sack you if you received a ban, that could be deemed excessively punitive. Having to take a taxi to work, not so much.

In cases like that it’s not just “being let off,” they’ll ram up the fines to offset the lack of a licence suspension.

Witness the change in traffic flow through roadworks with Average Speed cameras rather than spot checking Gatsos. It’s remarkable how behaviour changes when people know there’s a significant risk of being caught.

The smart motorway sections of the M1 have made a significant difference to driving standards. There’s still a fair chunk of middle lane hogging but speeding is virtually eliminated.

I would have re tests every 10 years.

I would also say that your not allowed to drive a car over 100bhp unless you also have a motorcycle test and i would implement a bicycle test as well that you would have to pass.

I dunno – I reckon most infringements are committed because people are fairly certain they’re not going to get caught.

That’s pretty much what I was trying to say, yes.

average cameras on all motorways

12 months on a 125 moped prior to car training .

revert to 125 moped if too many offences.

I would also say that your not allowed to drive a car over 100bhp unless you also have a motorcycle test

Not always practical for various reasons – disabilities etc – but I’d like to see more people doing a bike test or at least just the CBT. One of the unexpected side-effects of me passing is that it made me a considerably better car driver.

Hell, just including the life-saver check in car tuition would probably save a few cyclists’ lives.

Lorries, the drivers must know the 0.01 speed advantage over-take is a dick move. I’m not sure which I prefer, ban them from lane 2 at peak times or ban them altogether at peak times.

Enforce the middle lane hogging law.

Public Information ads to tell people that if a lane is closing and you need to filter, it’s more efficient to fill both lanes and merge in turn. I know that’s what the signs say but most people seem to think doing so is some great insults and an affront to the British love of queuing. Again Lorry drivers acting as self-imposed SJWs and blocking the lane it’s been decided is the pushing-in lane is just stupid.

Public Information ads to tell people that driving down the slip road at 30 to join traffic doing 70 isn’t being safe, it’s frankly remarkably stupid.

Marksmen in towers to ‘discourage’ drivers who always take the lane with the shortest queue and then force their way in to the lane they actually want at the last moment causing chaos in the process.

Slightly more seriously, obviously the more militant amongst us would rather just ban cars and dig up the roads by the looks of some of these answers, but prohibition never works. Don’t ban sub 5-mile drives, give people safe cycle lanes. Don’t ban cars from everywhere, offer an alternative that’s not already at capacity / over priced / just unpleasant to use. Or just give up this stupid idea we all have to hang out in the same office to work, just let us work from home.

In Canada (and, I think, the USA), if you take a government-run drivers’ education programme [consisting of 34 classroom hours (with minimum 70% necessary to pass), and 24 hours of driving instruction], you are able to get your licence when you are 16.

I am NOT an advocate of earlier licences, but I do love the extensive nature of the government-approved training.

That – especially if it included ‘car-bike relations’ – could be of huge benefit here, I think.

FROM THE MANITOBA DRIVERS EDUCATION WEBSITE:

DRIVER EDUCATION CERTIFICATE REQUIREMENTS
To earn a Driver Education Certificate the student must:

 Attend 30 of the 34 scheduled classroom hours;
 Maintain a 70% classroom average;
 Satisfactorily complete all classroom tests and assignments;
 Meet standards on the in-car final report;
 Complete a minimum of 24 hours of practice driving with a qualified supervising driver and provide verification for the hours on the Home-Based Practice Log; and,
 Drop-off their completed practice log at the time of the student’s scheduled road test.

THE STUDENT EVALUATION PROCESS

IN-CLASS
To successfully complete the theory portion of this program, students must maintain a 70% classroom average derived from classroom tests, assignments and participation.

IN-CAR
To successfully complete the practical component of this program, students must meet all in-car standards. To ensure that parents/legal guardians are receiving constructive and timely feedback about their child’s driving performance and
progress, in-car instructors will send the following forms home with students:

 In-Car Interim Report – This report is given to each student after the fourth driving lesson is complete. This form must be signed by a parent/legal guardian and be returned to the in-car instructor at the start of lesson five.
 In-Car Final Report – This report is given to each student at the end of the last driving lesson and will indicate whether or not they successfully met all in-car standards.

Proper education on how to use multi-lane roads. Coming back down the M6 last Sunday the huge numbers of people driving in the 3rd lane with absolutely nothing in 1 and 2.
Massive increase in public transport systems to give people an affordable, reliable and frequent alternative.
Proper secure bike parking facilities.
Greater police presence on the roads.

Compulsory hardwired dashcams / black boxes.

With one camera facing driver too – at least aresholes who kill when using a phone whilst driving would be far less likely to get off & police & courts time would be freed up as more offenders wouldn’t opt for the not guilty option.

The worst drivers – statistically – are young drivers. They’ve only just been tested. They know exactly what the rules are. They just don’t care. People who speed know they’re not supposed to, people who drink and drive know they’re not supposed to, people who drive on the phone know they shouldn’t. Test them all tomorrow and they’d all pass and the next day they’d carry on driving as they alway do.

They are just the ones who get caught! And I bet a lot of drivers who have been driving for 10-20yrs, given a retest, with no additional lessons, would fail.

So your are suggesting that having poor driving standards is ok so long as we make people pay when they do it 🙄

(not having a dig at you, just language use)… how many times would you get caught speeding, paying fines and points before you stop?

Not always practical for various reasons – disabilities etc – but I’d like to see more people doing a bike test or at least just the CBT. One of the unexpected side-effects of me passing is that it made me a considerably better car driver.

simple if you cant due to a disability why do you think you should be driving a powerful car then?

simple if you cant due to a disability why do you think you should be driving a powerful car then?

Driving an automatic car with one leg is much easier than riding a motorcycle with one leg

agree but all sid and done it doesnt mean you should

Don’t ban sub 5-mile drives, give people safe cycle lanes.

You can do both. I was actually joking (mostly) about banning sub 5-miler drives, but what you can do is dis-incentivise short journeys by car and create better infrastructure for walking and cycling – safe segregated lanes, secure bike parks, traffic-free town centres.

We need to get it into our thick collective heads that cars and individual motorised road transport cannot be the future if we want to have a future.

Public Information ads to tell people that if a lane is closing and you need to filter, it’s more efficient to fill both lanes and merge in turn. I know that’s what the signs say but most people seem to think doing so is some great insults and an affront to the British love of queuing.

Marksmen in towers to ‘discourage’ drivers who always take the lane with the shortest queue and then force their way in to the lane they actually want at the last moment causing chaos in the process.

umm……

agree but all sid and done it doesnt mean you should

Does it mean you shouldn’t?

umm……

Two different scenarios there I believe. The first is two lanes merging into one, the second two lanes going to different places (eg the right-hand lane being “right turn only.”)

Another vote for compulsory retests every 5 or so years. Part of my job is to assess new drivers as part of their job application. You would think they would be on best behaviour as they know they’re being assessed but the standard of most drivers is appalling. Thankfully there’s no recruitment planned for a while so I only have to deal with assessing our current driver’s after they have an accident or get points for something, at least they’re a known quantity!

Driving really needs to be seen as a privelidge not a right. It’s a cliché but it’s true.

Two different scenarios there I believe. The first is two lanes merging into one, the second two lanes going to different places (eg the right-hand lane being “right turn only.”)

While, yes, its different, people still do the same thing. Choose the shortest queue and wait til the last possible second to merge (usually with no indicators as well)

While, yes, its different, people still do the same thing. Choose the shortest queue and wait til the last possible second to merge

Except the latter is a complete dick move* and the former is exactly what everyone should be doing.

(* – Assuming it’s intentional queue-jumping rather than someone lost or not knowing the road)

Public Information ads to tell people that if a lane is closing and you need to filter, it’s more efficient to fill both lanes and merge in turn. I know that’s what the signs say but most people seem to think doing so is some great insults and an affront to the British love of queuing.

Marksmen in towers to ‘discourage’ drivers who always take the lane with the shortest queue and then force their way in to the lane they actually want at the last moment causing chaos in the process.

umm……

I should give some more detail. Here in Cardiff they’ve made all the major junctions and roundabouts more efficient by assigning specific lanes to specific exits which are often a bit different the the standard highway code rules. There are multiple signs and road markings telling road users which lane to use etc.

Like any City the roads get busy as peak times and there’s usually a queue for the busy ones. We have a hardcore of driver who thinks it’s perfectly reasonable to fly past the queue for say the M4 Westbound as if they’re heading into the City, and then, just a the moment of no return aggressively switch lanes. They’re so ‘entitled’ that if they get to the point of no return and there isn’t a gap, they’ll either force their way in my intimidating other road users, or just stopping in the wrong lane until they can force in, this happens EVERY morning and Evening and continuously with multiple drivers. It causes an accident a couple of times I month I’d say.

i would implement a bicycle test as well that you would have to pass.

My son was riding at two and a half which included riding in public places. Not sure if that supports your point or negates it because he was/is lethal on a bike.

I’d make it so that everyone had to get out of my way and at least once per year send me a message acknowledging that I’m the best driver.

I’d make it so that everyone had to get out of my way and at least once per year send me a message acknowledging that I’m the best driver.

We could have a special hand signal for it.

I think that more people should go on a course like my Mate’s company called Driver Skills!

They do a day that includes defensive driving with ex class 1 police instructors.

THen a skid pan session to feel what happens when it goes wrong (and how to correct it)

But the single most impactful part of the day is a session simulating an emergency situation, using ABS to avoid a collision. You would be surprised how many people don’t know that you can steer a car when ABS is firing.

In fact, there are published papers that show the benefit of ABS depends on your age and sex!

Knew I’d seen it somewhere – Sentencing council recommendation Rather than change in the law.

How about instead of a fine you have to help someone how has suffered life changing injuries because of poor driving? Spend a day with someone with no legs for example and see how life is for them. It might make people think a little bit more about the consequences of their actions behind the wheel.

Public Information ads to tell people that if a lane is closing and you need to filter, it’s more efficient to fill both lanes and merge in turn. I know that’s what the signs say but most people seem to think doing so is some great insults and an affront to the British love of queuing. Again Lorry drivers acting as self-imposed SJWs and blocking the lane it’s been decided is the pushing-in lane is just stupid.

That’s your view as you fly past the stationary traffic at 70mph and brake at the last second.

To everyone else they merged in turn half a mile back, probably still managing to do 50, and then the lane comes to a complete standstill to let Mr SelfImportant in his silver BMW “merge” at 5mph. This then has a knock on effect behind of the open lane backing up, making it look like it’s occupants are just being stupid, when infact they’re only stationary because the 1% who insist on bombing down to the end and forcing everyone to slow down for them.

Merge in turn doesn’t mean merge at the last f****** second.

1) full re-test for anyone caught doing any points-giving infraction

2) compulsory dashcams that record front, rear, and internally.

3) urban/suburban roads. No road markings (especially the centreline), no speed limits. Makes people actually have to think about what they are doing.

4) make it illegal to apply the brakes on the motorway (unless the person in front of you has braked).

If you dont use your indicators, your car explodes in a huge ball of flames.

TBH, you could just take this and apply it to pretty much any major city.

Although I’d be more bold and expand it further out to the M42/M6/M5

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/seven-key-points-birmingham-transport-17559051

Merge in turn doesn’t mean merge at the last f****** second.

Where does it mean then? Some arbitrary point that each individual driver has made up?

If the traffic is free-flowing then yes, it’s sensible to move over into appropriate gaps. But if it’s slow-moving then merging like a zip is the correct thing to do, the problem here isn’t lane 2 merging “late” but rather lane 1 being nose-to-tail and (perhaps intentionally) blocking those merging.

I’m not really sure how a queue of traffic can simultaneously be doing 50mph and stationary.

1 Reduce the volume of traffic on the road. Perhaps by somehow making driving really, really, really expensive for private individuals.

2 Actual real consequences for criminal driving offences, rather than e.g. a poxy £100 fine for turning cyclists into pancakes. Sort of goes with #1 I guess.

3 More, and more visible, traffic police. Reminding people of #2.

4 Mandatory sealed black box monitors for everyone, not just new drivers, that keep tabs on speeding and tailgating and sudden movesing. Somehow link that in to #1 and #2. Drive like an arse all the time, insurance quadruples, for instance.

5 Get self driving cars working, properly.

“I’d make it so that everyone had to get out of my way and at least once per year send me a message acknowledging that I’m the best driver.”

“We could have a special hand signal for it.”

I think there already is a sign for “I think you are number one!” isn’t there?

Where does it mean then? Some arbitrary point that each individual driver has made up?

Merge whilst the traffic is still flowing. That way it stays flowing.

It’s generally fairly obvious what is and isn’t antisocial, Things like the big red cross on the gantry and the white painted hashing are also quite good clues that you’ve left it too late.

Must spend one year travelling by bicycle followed by a year on a moped and finally a motorbike. Only after this are you allowed to learn to drive a car.

Lifetime bans for serious driving offences that result in serious injury or death. Fines and bans for lesser offences (parking, speeding etc).