No conspiracy’s please.

Im interested to know if anyone has any proven science or evidential data re the effect of long Covid on cardiovascular performance specifically vo2max.      I’m suffering from a performance deficit of about 20% watts @ vo2max and an inability to go long periods – beyond 3-5 minutes – in that zone, but still have my z2 and sprint performance available.  This is a massive issue for XC racing of course, which is primarily within those zones.

I’ve spoken to several athletes, one an Australian Olympic level swimmer suffering the same but they are not accessible to me to have long detailed  conversations hence the ask.   I suffered from EBV last year and am unsure whether this, post viral recovery, lack of consistent training or long Covid or maybe a mixture.  For those that know my history, I have a new coaching setup now and post-winter endurance which has gone well the above had been recognised and we are taking action to “fix” it but I’m curious to know the scientific details and how long I could be impacted for.

Thanks

Everyone struggles to go beyond 5 mins at vo2max!

Are you sure it’s not just lack of training at vo2max since your illness? How many weeks/months of consistent vo2max training have you put in since being full recovered? How much racing have you done since? I know that the answer for me personally at this time of year (i.e. winter) is ‘not that much’. I would only start getting worried if I wasn’t seeing any improvement after 2 months of racing and/or committed vo2max training.

Another thing to consider is are you anaemic and or deficient in b12? Even if you’re borderline, then micronutrient deficiencies can have a very pernicious effect when you’re trying to train hard.

Recent article – Low iron levels resulting from infection could be key trigger of long COVID

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/low-iron-levels-resulting-from-infection-could-be-key-trigger-of-long-covid

Maybe I should have said Threshold.   Pretty much a month / 9hrs a week training after a 9-12hrs a week of winter z2 since start of November.  Vo2 intervals vary from 30s to 3 mins with some 8-15 min threshold / z3  in the mix.  I did race last year with the same albeit more then unknown issue from March – Sept before I knew about the EBV

it’s the watts -20% & time above threshold collapse since 2021 which is a shocker, I’m going from 3.8wkg ftp to 3.3wkg tested via W/prime because I can’t hold 20 mins, but the bigger impact is not being able to hold much time above threshold.

it’s painful watching your peer group vanish into the distance on lap 1 of a race when 2 years ago you’d be with them & finishing in the top third.

As you might of guessed I’ve had lots of blood tests of late none of which show iron deficiency although I do take a strong iron supplement together with a multi vitamin.

I’m curious to know the scientific details and how long I could be impacted for.

There’s a very good FB group for endurance athletes with long covid that’s quite hot on picking up exercise-related research:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/longcovidsupportforenduranceathletes

I think the broader picture is that no-one knows. I spent over a year off the bike with long covid and another six months just easing back into riding. My sub-threshold improved rapidly, my top-end power less so, ditto recovery. It’s hard to know what’s long covid, what’s detraining and what’s simply down to ageing.

Various studies – see above group – propose/detect various mechanisms that may impact performance, but it’s hard to know how universal they are and, as per your question, how long they might take to resolve.

If I were you, I’d be working with your coach to build up your VO2 Max performance and not worrying overmuch about the post-viral thing, given that research isn’t even remotely conclusive in that area. I’d also bear in mind that a lot of the people using that FB group have ongoing issues – effectively it’s s self-selecting sample – and folk like me, who’ve largely recovered, tend not to use it very often, so sometimes it feels like no-one there has recovered, whereas the reality is that people do recover and simply stop using the group.

I don’t know if that’s much help. If you do somehow find ‘the answer’ please let me know 🙂

ps: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/04/people-with-long-covid-should-avoid-intense-exercise-say-researchers

This is the most recent exercise-related science stuff I’ve picked up on, but as above, it’s not clear how universal the mechanism is etc.

it’s painful watching your peer group vanish into the distance on lap 1 of a race when 2 years ago you’d be with them & finishing in the top third.

Is it not just the case that you’re two years older and your performance has dropped off due to age?

What was/is your actual VO2 max? In the normal unit please.

I would tend to assume long covid will be same as any other respiratory infection, and getting VO2 max back is very, very difficult

I can only measure vo2max via the inaccurate Garmin  scale, was 57 in 2021, is 51 now.

BWD that’s exactly what my coach as doing with heavy instruction / advice to keep an eye on fatigue.   I’m currently managing 60 ctl / 450 weekly TSS with no perceivable issues beyond the normal training cycle impact.

Crossed – it could be, but is a rather sudden coincidence with my 50th birthday an an immediate drop  rather than slower decline.

My base is back (200W @140bpm, 2hrs on Zwift @2.6W/kg Zone 2) but the VO2max efforts are exhausting (of course). Most of my intense work this winter has been on the track. Of note, my HR trace now shows periods that climb to about 220 for periods of intensity that never happened before! (previous MaxHR was approx. 185).

I suspect, like any viral infection, it takes a long time to recover that top end. More so for a more serious infection. Mine was four years ago. I still have no smell, and recovery from any infection (currently about 1/mo) is challenging my training. But things are improving steadily and I’m club ride Group 1b (dropped from 1’s) not 2 now (so fast but not fastest).

Good Friday Track racing on Friday in the C’s at Lee Valley, followed by a test 10 TT on Sunday at Hillingdon. Might risk a vets circuit race too, but E123’s on a Tuesday night feels like a stretch (and that’s basically an FTP test to stay in the bunch).

Lung damage from Covid could cause a permanent drop in VO2Max

Long Covid: Hidden lung damage spotted on scans – BBC News

I experienced a 25% drop in FTP based on the relationship between my Z2 power and HR after getting Covid for the 1st time in March 2023. I was very cautious about returning to training and did several weeks of low intensity riding guided by HR rather than power before I did anything above Z2.

Looks like a long road back with plenty of patience – again that’s what my coach stated – thanks for the replies.    I was kinda hoping to make a decision whether to continue racing after this year based on performance.   That’s made even hard by the fact I “might” recover one day.    I therefore to make that decision based on my enjoyment of the Process instead.

@tired it’s a shame I’m at the in-laws Friday as I could pop across and say hello at the Lee Valley race – velodrome circuit or Redbridge cycling centre?

Track – it’s Lee Valley Velodrome, everything from C – making up the numbers (i.e., me) to UCI Elite.

Good Friday Racing

According to intervals site, since 18 months ago…

My vo2max has dropped from 55.9 to approx 45 on a good day, usually closer to ~40.

My Compound Score dropped from 1590 to ~940.

I used to be able to 4W/Kg (~320W) for 20mins, on a good day I can’t do that for 3mins now.

covid affected me for three months after the initial infection. struggled to get up stairs without getting out of breath. I eventually got back to being just unfit from being very unfit lol Could be a multitude of reasons from lung damage to immune issues over that period that caused it. SARS cov 19 wrecks havoc on the body.

After seeing an interested GP through my PCT Post-Covid service I’ve been treating my chronic fatigue as an likely autonomic nervous system dysregulation and diving into resources on recovery from chronic pain. None of the tests I had done in the last year came up with physiological reasons for my illness so I’m hopeful this explanation might hold water.  Athletically I don’t see any reason I can’t regain my previous station on that decline into decrepitude, but I’m more focused on getting joy from my exercise (and my life) again than measuring it. I’m also doing more weights again, because weights are fun and should help with my running and cycling as I do more of both and at higher intensities again.

 I’m more focused on getting joy from my exercise (and my life) again than measuring it.

Amen to this. I know everyone’s wired differently, but I try to remind myself occasionally of why I love riding bikes and it’s not fundamentally having a great five-minute power output or being competitive in races.

I’m pretty sure that when I started riding again, my body was over-reacting to exercise, presumably as the result of a mis-calibrated self-protection response. I found mindfulness and meditation helped and a simple thing of visualising myself in a really happy place, in my case a point on one of my local rides with an awesome view of Kinder, which unfailingly just makes me smile. I found that doing that when things got shaky was often enough to calm everything down. Apparently it’s also an exercise that some CFS programmes teach, but I kind of made it up for myself, which I’m mildly proud of.

But yes, very much look for joy, not metrics 🙂

Have you been training at Vo2 over the winter or just zone 2? If I have any length of time off from doing top end workouts it seems to take ages to get back to where I was, and gets harder every year.
I’ve tried the Z2 theory over winter before and I’m not convinced it’s the right thing for average joes to do

An interesting and useful thread for me. I had back to back viruses about a month ago. Probably mild covid then noro virus.

Before the illness I was riding 7 hours a week and mixing in intervals once a week.

Last week I did 6 hours in zone 2. Actually I did hit zone 4 for a few minutes. I felt wrecked by the end of yesterday’s ride.

So I’m reminded that I need to be patient and be thankful that I’m already back on the bike.

@markspark I’m no expert or that fit. Although z2 is considered useful everything seems to say mixed with higher intensity work outs. Hence 80 20 training

Crossed – it could be, but is a rather sudden coincidence with my 50th birthday an an immediate drop  rather than slower decline.

And your “peer group” has gained 2 years worth at the other (younger) end – and are suddenly ‘back in the game’ 🙂

This is a question I am still trying to find the answer to.  Through Jan 23 to April 23 I was training well and hitting some great numbers with little stress e.g. 2x20min at 350w, 4x4min at 450w, 8x1min at 550w.  The last FTP test was an all time record at 398w resulting in 5.23w/kg in mid April.  That is close to what I was hitting when I was elite!

In late April I was down with covid for a week and close to being admitted to hospital due to my low blood O2 sats, I think it was only my fitness that kept me out.  I then had four chest infections over 6 weeks, likely all the same bacterial infection that I just couldn’t shake.  Through the entire summer I was coughing and struggling to breath with no great success from the GP or asthma clinic.  I struggled to exercise and event walk the 1kn to work on some days.  To this day I still have a low level cough which I cannot shake.

Although my peak power figures seem to have recovered and in some instances beaten last years figures, my FTP is not recovering.  I can only conclude that the cough impacts that tt style effort but I can survive the short intense efforts as its more lactate tolerance and not wholly reliant on the aerobic system.

Its interesting reading others experience with covid and the impact on fitness/exercise.  For me, I’ve written off racing over the next few months but may try and ramp up towards August for a local race.  Its more about testing myself and seeing how my body reacts.

Covid really is the gift that keeps giving and it irritates the hell out of me when f##kwitts state its all a conspiracy theory.

ernie

I think for the older athlete (50+ , and yes I am) the 80:20 is pretty smart , with what you do in your 20%changing with the time of year .

My observations at 50+ , which aren’t going to surprise anyone, recovery takes a lot longer, geting top end takes a lot longer and you can’t be top end fit all the time/as often.  If you’ve had two years of stress, respiratory illness and so on then you’re going to need to be patient getting gains.

If you ever get the chance, get your VO2 max actually measured at the same time as your threshold.  I had mine done many years ago at Roehampton a few times .  But once you reach a threshold of 70 or so I think the concensus is improvement is nice, but it’s good enough and other factors play a more important role.

All very interesting @ernie I had a 2.5 month Oct’22 to December ‘22 multi respiratory issue as well, basically coughing all that time and then resulting in the same lack of ability to hold >efforts.

Noted the fact that time is needed and yes I’m very much on an 80/20 plan.

My usual route to attempt to answer a question like this would be PubMed. Though a quick browse now suggests that finding any information for this specific question could take some poking. Lots of articles on pulmonary rehabilitation and long covid, a few on effects of long covid on respiratory performance. Lots to read if you’re interested though.