Load up, load up, load up, those rubber bullets…

They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them – what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?

record levels of youth unemployment probably being factored in

There about a quid each!

50p if you buy more than 9999 though. Bargain.

Someone has made upwards of £2k on this massive corrupt purchase !!!!

Heads will roll …. Etc ….

Neal – no I can just apply a little simple logic to the situation and clarity of thought.

TJ glad to hear it.

So how many locations do you think they should be stored in then ?

How many in each location ?

How many officers trained to use them ?

How many does each officer need to carry ?

How many will be used in the training of each officer ?

How many per year, per officer to maintain the level of training needed to use them, ?

If the police have changed the policy on using rubber bullets, I would hope it would be part of a public review to do so, not a secret change.

Not a secret.

Policy info.

the met had 700 of them – what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?

I thought we discussed this – that the Home office central stores of riot control equipment (which the police could access whenever they wanted) may have been administritavley transferred to the control of the police – so in fact nothing actually has to have changed, simply a change in accounting so they’re on the police books rather than on the Home office books – just as many actually physically in the armouries as there were before, but the paperwork reveals a huge rise.

but, like I said, it couldn’t possibly be that simple? could it? That would lead to a significant downturn in tin foil sales, and we can’t have that, can we.

Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTT

How many rounds needed in training?
Perhaps future deaths could be avoided by having the officers fire off a few of these in training situations?
The Met has over 33,000 officers.

Doesn’t seem that unreasonable.

I thought we discussed this – that the Home office central stores of riot control equipment (which the police could access whenever they wanted) may have been administritavley transferred to the control of the polic

May have or have? so you are just as ignorant about this as the rest of us. If we are going for may have’s then may’be they were gifted by the moomins in exchange for buttons? could be true and I have just as much proof as you.

As for the person who claimed they cost £1 each, could you please provide some evidence, as I very much doubt that they are that cheap! especially considering the cost of everything else in the arms trade.

May have or have? so you are just as ignorant about this as the rest of us.

Precisley! However, I thought we had all agreed that it was acceptable to “apply a little simple logic to the situation and clarity of thought” 😉

What I have done, is demonstrate that theHome office have a proven and known stock of them, that the police are allowed access to if needed, which is more than you’ve got for your Moomin hypothesis!

We used to have a massive pile of long riot batons and small round shields in our garage when I was growing up. The batons had been made by a friend of my dad’s to supplement the supplies they weren’t getting during the miners strike and the shields were from another force and not strictly speaking standard issue where my dad worked. They were transferred officially into supplies at one point which probably doubled the amount of kit the “riot squad” had. In reality the number never changed, just one day they appeared in the inventory.

Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTT

I am not outraged – I merely point out the stupidity of this and wonder if its corrupt purchasing – someone just made a load of money on this

Given that you don’t know how many locations or how many have been or will be used in any incident(s) or how many officers are qualified to use them, you are in no position to say whether this is OTT – that much is obvious. It is also not stupid. There would have been a business case put together for the procurement (it is public money and subject to the same levels of scutiny as any other publically funded purchase) and value for money would have been sought. It provides resilience and ensures the police have sufficient stock to meet whatever happens at fairly low cost. They will have a long shelf life and cost little to store and maintain. So, resilience in place at a sensible time, taking into account recent trouble and future events, at a fairly low cost. Not a lot there to complain about if you understand procurement, logistics, risk management and the fact that policemen need more than wooden sticks these days.

Unless you just want to be outraged about something of course.

ZuluEleven earlier

140+ stations in London. That’s what, 70-odd rounds per station? Doesn’t seem THAT insane

Richc – No, thats my mum – she was tragically blinded when hit with a police baton round whilst nipping down to the Tesco Express for some milk while a riot was going on outside, in a horrific reenactment of the scene in Byker Grove where PJ got blinded with a paintball

How many firearms officers – they should be the only ones using them? It should not be a routine piece of kit available to everyone, they have never been used ion the mainland. How many police stations?

I ask again – what has changed that the 700 they had were not sufficient but now they needs 10 000?

Anyone who is able to think clearly and logicically can see this is disproportionate. I find it fascinating how when it police / army and guns how unquestioning some folk are of what is going on.

So not part of the bollocks statistic then. Lucky her.

bounce up, hitting the protesting catholics at groin height

and some of their young children at head height iirc 🙁

although goodness knows what 5 year olds were doign milling about outside during a riot.

probably shopping!

Goodness knows what members of loyalist paramilitary groups were doing policing nationalist protests.

pretty much what they liked?

wunhundred

I ask again – what has changed that the 700 they had were not sufficient but now they needs 10 000?

Perhaps someone somewhere suggested that they should occasionally do some training with these rounds and they realised that 700 would mean they only had 5 rounds per station for training and deployment.

Anyone who is able to think clearly and logicically can see this is disproportionate

Nope. It would appear that anyone capable of rational thought within the context of recent and future events thinks this is fairly reasonable.

How many firearms officers – they should be the only ones using them? It should not be a routine piece of kit available to everyone, they have never been used ion the mainland. How many police stations?

I ask again – what has changed that the 700 they had were not sufficient but now they needs 10 000?

Anyone who is able to think clearly and logicically can see this is disproportionate. I find it fascinating how when it police / army and guns how unquestioning some folk are of what is going on.

Well, there are 300 officers in the Met trained to use them.

That’s 33 rounds each with an extra few for training etc How does that sound ?

Not that many I wouldn’t have said.

And according to the Met they had a stockpile of Just short of 6,500 in 2009, so they are getting through them pretty fast if they only had 700 left last summer ??

So they used roughly 5800 in Less than 2.5 years.

(and that’s not taking into account what they bought in the Annual order in both those years !)

Still disproportionate. . ?

I’m just applying “simple logic and clarity of thought”

Well, there are 300 officers in the Met trained to use them.

That’s 33 rounds each with an extra few for training etc How does that sound ?

Completely disproportionate. 🙂

Thought not.

Seems pretty spot on to me. Not really enough if I’m honest.

I’m thinking that they don’t have a ‘use by’ date?

The L21A1 Baton round is made of “Plastic” not rubber and has been for the last 17 years. People qualified to fire them in NI had to have fired at least 10 practice rounds in the last 30 days in order to be able to use the weapon on the streets. I would assume that all UK police forces must abide by a similar rule. Hence the need for a decent stock pile. You never know when the Yoouufs is goin kick off innit 😀
”Baton Gunners!”

We mustn’t forget that the Met have a history of using scare tactics to prevent democracy in action. God knows how many people they scared off that march but we saw comments all over the place online from kids terrified of being shot on their own soil by bullies with guns, parents demanding their kids not turn up, schools telling their pupils they would be disciplined for attending.

In the end at that march, the Met used Total Policing and created a slow moving rolling kettle, denied Sparks from joining up, then pretty much bottled up thousands in a tight street until it started to get sketchy and militants tried to roughly break out. Then two police horses jumped into the front lines of young students (first one the rider lost control of after a bottle hit the horses head armour, the second was deliberate)

The police finally backed off and let it move on as someone up the ranks no doubt realised the media could now see what was happening as young people/kids were at risk of permanent injury/death.

Functional creep.

We mustn’t forget that the Met have a history of using scare tactics to prevent democracy in action

Nuffin says democracy like a big bag of rice, innit!

schools telling their pupils they would be disciplined for attending

As a parent, I’d be quite pleased with a school taking such a stance.

Anyway – it seems that TJ has been roughed up enough to comply with the State and stopped his protest. Hurrah for common sense and reasonable thinking.

People qualified to fire them in NI had to have fired at least 10 practice rounds in the last 30 days in order to be able to use the weapon on the streets. I would assume that all UK police forces must abide by a similar rule.

That’s interesting.

So of the Met have similar rules, they would need 36,000 rounds per year, just to keep the currently trained staff they have, trained and ready to deploy.

Which would mean the 10,000 rounds they currently have is woefully short of what they need for the 300 trained officers to be any use if they are needed.

.
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TJ- you should be complaIning about the shambles the MET is in with it’s stock control !!!