Liz! Truss!

Err sorry for any insensitivity but not all fat pigs got fed up the arse then.

I disagree. I haven’t changed anything.

Shortening what someone said isn't editing? Of course it is. I've done it just now.

That's two occasions where you asked a question, I answered, and you chose to quote and respond to a different part of my post instead. Up to you of course, but it comes across as someone more interested in scoring points than anything else.

From my perspective, the shitter this latest bunch of clowns is, the better.

There is currently only one party who are capable (and interested) in running the country. The motivations of the Tories for being in power are entirely self-serving - it's so blatant, they are barely bothering to even hide it these days.

The real risk (as I see it) following the spectacularly incompetent Johnson government, is that the truss government manages to convince enough boomers (apologies, but we know it's true) that they aren't as bad, and so vote them back in in the next GE.

"competent enough to disguise their awfulness" is the worst case scenario

@tj

It wasn't perfect, it was a rush job however it did what it needed to do. Hindsight is brilliant. If it had taken longer to put through the damage would have been far greater.

The policy didn't make people act fraudulently. People chose that option.

This threads going the same as every other with the same voices same rhetoric.

I know multiple people businesses who would have been screwed without it.

FTFY - I have little faith that the government that intoduced UC, PIP, releasing elderly covid patients into care homes and had to be shamed into feeding hungry children by a footballer introduced furlough payments out of the goodness of their hearts.

See also: £4 billion in covid loan fraud written off, plus Sunak's wife being a shareholder of a firm that scooped a £1.3 million covid loan and still went bust owing £16 million.

Hold on there.

Being nice doesn’t work.

So, I feel no remorse about stating my views.

I'm not advocating suppressing your views. You can express your views and be civil about it. This has far more impact than spewing bile and venom. That does absolutely nothing of value, for readers on either side.

You can never change anyone's mind by pissing them off. Ever. So my it just becomes acrimonious noise.

Again, not accusing you of doing that specifically; I don't pay enough attention to who's posting what.

You can express your views and be civil about it. This has far more impact than spewing bile and venom.

But what if you lack the confidence that you will be able to change someone's mind?

I suspect that what has mostly silenced mefty and stopped him from expressing his opinions on here is the bile and venom.

I somehow doubt that me challenging him in a civil manner is the reason.

Again, not accusing you of doing that specifically; I don’t pay enough attention to who’s posting what.

So why post that response with a direct quote?

🤦

Anyway back to the thread..... Have you seen just how happy Truss looked in the photos?

She's the rat  taking over the sinking ship yet can't stop grinning like a Cheshire Cat. It does show how power corrupts people. Never assume these clowns are public servants, they are clearly in it for themselves.

Furlough could always have been better but the biggest thing to learn from it is that a government can support the economy with its own BoE for certain issues within the economy.

This was unthinkable especially in a Tory context (and still Labour ironically.) That's the watershed.

And this leads on to what else can you do with new money creation / deficit spending - when it's targeted at the parts of the economy the market has left behind?

It's just a shame it's only employed when everything is on its knees.

Left bollox?

I think this was unfairly overlooked among the squabbling and posturing.

If you think this lot are bad wait until the opposition unicorn riders are in govt, assuming if they can get in that is. I don't see them doing well too considering many of them want to rejoin EU and constantly banging on about nonsense green energy (some of the die hard). Their leader (Starmer) will face the same prospects of in fighting.

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1567403095243505665

Left bollox?

Ernie made the joke subtly. I just made it overt

I don’t see them doing well too considering many of them want to rejoin EU and constantly banging on about nonsense green energy (some of the die hard).

I can see this being the way the next election is fought, as Truss and her new cabinet have plenty of form, both in government and working for opaquely funded "think tanks", of blocking renewables and talking up fossil fuels. Australia gives me hope that it won't work with the electorate though. This fuel crisis isn't going to get the public on side with a rush for more oil and gas, they will want government action on insulation, energy conservation, and onshore renewables. Slagging of green energy will energise a certain base of base voters, but it isn't (at least yet) popular with the wider voting public.

Thars the slow motion coup just about complete. Just the gerrymandering and further restrictions on unions and labour funding to complete it IMO.

As for truss as PM. My goodness that cabinet is both very poor in terms of competence and highlt frighting in terms of vile ideology.

Roll on scots independence. If that doesn't happen soon then I will be leaving the UK. Scotland has voted for a different direction for 50+ years and been denied it

One thing that has become very clear on my travels is how much damage the tories have done over the decades and how much we have lost. Infrastructure and socially.

The 7th richest country in the world and we have people dying of starvation and levels of poverty far exceeding other theoretically poorer countries.

I am utterly disgusted by what decades of tory rule have done to our society

This government won't survive.

I don't think that even the majority of Tory MPs have any faith in them.

General Election by March.

I agree tj rural Ireland 20years ago was looking tired poor and struggling. This summer it was very European and felt as though it had a purpose (speaking to family and family friends from Longford to Cork.) France was a joy.
Britain is not feeling outward looking and willing to cooperate for the betterment of all

General Election by March.

Crystal ball time? New PM by the end of 2023... then an election in spring/summer 2024 (I can't see any PM risking a winter election with what's coming for the NHS and SMEs in upcoming winters).

I agree tj rural Ireland 20years ago was looking tired poor and struggling.

Not completely true - the Irish economy was booming from mid-90s to early-2000s. Where do you think the Celtic Tiger economy phrase came from?
I've still got family in rural Wicklow, Carlow and Leitrim and they look back on those times with fondness

Some might find this funny. I don't, becuase I'm incredibly right-wing.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/moron-has-a-good-feeling-about-truss-20220907225443

I'm old I tend to undersell the amount of time that has passed. Tipperary and Cork are much improved through being part over Europe since I was there an unspecified number of years ago greater than 25.

You can express your views and be civil about it. This has far more impact than spewing bile and venom. That does absolutely nothing of value, for readers on either side.

You can never change anyone’s mind by pissing them off. Ever.

You're assuming that that's what posters are trying to do, rather than just venting in frustration.

I've tried it. I tried different methods for years from 2016 until it was simply too late and I'm far from the only one. Minds changed: tending towards zero. You might as well be asking a fundamental Christian if they've heard the good news about Islam.

Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?

I think all the opportunities have now been realised. Turned out great didn't it.

You might as well be asking a fundamental Christian if they’ve heard the good news about Islam.

Ok so you can state your views without driving people away. This isn't supposed to be a clique, and is the worse for being one.

Lot of people in Ireland have the surname Coffey, but people can be disowned.

Mr Coffey is very disappointed in his distant cousin. I'm glad he's no longer here to see how badly she turned out

The economy in Ireland was certainly booming during the Celtic Tiger period (98-2000) but as one popular economist at the time pointed out there were more BMW's in Dublin than in Munich but most were not paid for.
Similarly having lived in Switzerland, Ireland has a very long way to go as regards infrastructure. If you haven't a car, bus/coaches are the only way to get from city to city. And rural towns traffic are a nightmare due to little public transport.

Trees Coffey? When the chips are down she will show herself to be very self-serving.

Ill give an example of the cognitive dissonance that ime many tory voters exhibit.

I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all

I was not just referring to Ireland but two things struck me about Ireland. Far less overt poverty visible and people are much less angry.

I dont think people there die of starvation like they do in the UK

Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?

There is too much good news to announce, so they've left it to other ministers.

https://twitter.com/ranil/status/1558738970862882816

I don’t think that even the majority of Tory MPs have any faith in them.

General Election by March.

There is a big difference between a lack of faith and tory MPs voting for a GE since most would fancy retaining their seats. Replace the leader sure but not go for a GE (its one good argument about not having a new PM triggering a GE since that would reduce massively the chances of a useless PM being given the boot).
There is a possibility that she would be booted out after a year to give her replacement a year prior to the GE.
However it would be a really risky move for her replacement since if they lose the GE thats their career finished. Better to let her lead the party into defeat and take over then.

Back on track, these Tories are the most right wing ever in power. They are a long way from Ken Clark and Rory Stewart.

Back when my kid was in primary school they had a talent competition....
Some kids actually had some "real talents"they had spent years developing like playing Rachmaninoff etc. but my kid decided he was going to enter anyway.

Given he couldn't take his best talent (one he had done some work/practice) into an assembly hall he decided he was going to just go up and tell jokes... his mother (who worked at the school) was horrified but he calmly explained (sic) "the talent show is decided by voting - its got nothing to do with actual talent only how many people vote for you and if I make people laugh instead of feeling jealous they'll vote for me".

I'm not saying making people laugh isn't a real talent... it's just something he could walk up and do without any actual work or prep

So yeah ... Boris the clown followed by Truss... it's like Boris had to work at being a clown to cover his incompetence and avoid actually doing any work or actually reading or understanding anything.

Truss is just a natural... she's hilarious and I don't think she even needs to try.
it's amazing, she's so out there incompetent you even get laughs just by pretending to agree with her....

I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all

It appears to me that a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required, if you are a non-rich Tory voter. I honestly think many of that group don't really understand how things work. Change my mind..?

I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all

It is hardly surprising that she got angry, no one voted for "6 hours" ambulance wait. And however much you might want to rubbish the ambulance service I am sure that a 6 hour wait in response to someone collapsing isn't the norm, so she had every reason to be dissatisfied. Was this in Scotland?

Obviously exceptions exist:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/eight-minute-emergency-ambulance-takes-25513273

But I would still expect people to be justifiably angry if they had to wait an unacceptable period of time. Telling them that they 'voted for it' is unlikely to calm them down and bring them round to your way of thinking.

I suggest that you try a different tactic on your true blue relative instead of trying to wind her up.

Was this in Scotland?

A true blue Tory brexiteer? Doesn't seem likely.

I suggest that you try a different tactic on your true blue relative

Like what?

Like what?

Perhaps something less confrontational?

Telling someone who is justifiably angry about something that it's all their fault doesn't seem like a particularly good tactic. And by TJ's own admission it apparently spectacularly failed.

A true blue Tory brexiteer? Doesn’t seem likely.

Visited Perthshire recently? 😂

And however much you might want to rubbish the ambulance service I am sure that a 6 hour wait in response to someone collapsing isn’t the norm, so she had every reason to be dissatisfied. Was this in Scotland?

In Yorkshire in early summer I was at a kids Rugby festival.

One lad was injured, a neck injury. St Johns were on site and said he needed to be immobilised and an ambulance. Ambulance wait was 5 hours. They asked if they should bring him in in their vehicle and were told that moving him would be dangerous.

When we left two hours later he was still on the floor.

It's not really calling the ambulance service to say there are massive issues with it. But saying it's all fine is to deny reality.

There was something on the telly yesterday about long waiting times for ambulances in Scotland, which is why I asked.

Perhaps something less confrontational?

Like...?

It’s not really calling the ambulance service to say there are massive issues with it. But saying it’s all fine is to deny reality.

The link that I posted was to show that all is clearly not fine. However to tell someone that they voted for it, when they clearly didn't, isn't likely to get the response that you might have hoped.

Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?

Does anyone want it?
Having a non sequitur as a job title is hardly going to look good on the CV.

Perhaps most amusingly "Levelling Up" is still a position, Lucky old Simon Clarke gets to put that on his CV...

JRM has been given Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, Braverman has the Home office so I fully expect the pair of them to be sending young offenders, prisoners and Asylum seekers to work in Victorian style coal mines and mills, if they die on the job they'll be liquefied and their juices used for fracking...

Kemi Badenoch gets international trade, probably a tougher brief given the UK's international standing and she's probably been given it to keep her busy and out of the way having shown a bit too much promise in hustings...

ernielynch

Perhaps something less confrontational?

Telling someone who is justifiably angry about something that it’s all their fault doesn’t seem like a particularly good tactic. And by TJ’s own admission it apparently spectacularly failed.

No way to know if it failed or not until she votes next time...

I go for...

"Well, I didn't vote for this, did you?"

To which, the answer is obviously "no"... hopefully followed by a thoughtful pause.

The gap between what people hope their vote is for, and what it actually delivers, needs to pointed out sometimes. You can vote for a more prosperous country, better services, a better life for everyone you know... but if that isn't delivered... that should be thought about, often, before voting again.

Molgrips

It appears to me that a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required, if you are a non-rich Tory voter. I honestly think many of that group don’t really understand how things work. Change my mind..?

On one hand it's the same mentality as the "pro-life/pro-capital punishment/pro guns"
On the other hand what makes you think they are not voting for what they BELIEVE is in the best interests of the country if not themselves? (Or would you say anyone "rich" that is voting for labour has "a certain amount of cognitive dissonance")

She is way down south. I think rees mogg is a tually her mp

Long ambulance waits are a direct and deliberate consequence of tory policy so yes she did vote for it. She knew damn well the tories especially rees mogg want to get rid of the health service. Apart from anything else i had had that debate with her pre election.

Its just an example of the cognitive dissonance.

(Or would you say anyone “rich” that is voting for labour has “a certain amount of cognitive dissonance”)

No. Id say they had a social conscience