Folks,

Okay I am very much like the idea of preserving old buildings … but what if there is an old listed building in remote of nowhere and someone totally bulldoze it overnight leaving nothing to trace or the entire building cannot be saved.

Question:

1) can you build a new but different building there?

2) will it piss off those pen pushers?

😆

p/s: was watching Sarah Beeny earlier …

you would probably have to build an exact replica using traditional methods, then bend over and take it with the fines.

"Kids" set fire to an inconvenient listed building on the housing estate I live on when they were developing (it's the site of a mental asylum, the main building was listed). The council made them rebuild it to be the same as it was, so that ploy failed.

Serious fines. Often you wont realise it but listed buildings are observed from time to time on things like the buildings-at-risk register.

As I understand it, you can let a listed building fall into disrepair and ruin, but if you want to do absolutely anything else with it you'll need permission from English Heritage…

hhmmm … even burning it down to ashes … they still insist!!! LOL!

So I see the pen pushers are really powerful bunch. Great now I want to be a pen pusher.

😈

Believe it or not tampering with a listed building is a criminal matter, so do so at your peril (or contact english heritage)

There will be comprehensive records of why the building was listed, and it's construction. Also, listed buildings are gradually being photographed along with the 'list description' and added to the English Heritage website. So, as above it will have to be reinstated, also fines and possible imprisonment is possible.

I watched the Beeney program, and thought the owners of the listed house by the road were idiots. Buying a listed building, and trying to remove the features it was listed for – people would want to buy it for. They didn't give a fig about the building, just profit. That's what listed building protects against.

I live in a listed buildingm by a busy road. If it didn't have the features it was listed for, I wouldn't have bought it, and lived in an ordinary house in a quiet location.

i hardly think preserving out heritage from people who would burn it down is pen pushing.

What's for your next post can I plough an SSSI?

Sometimes I wonder if the pen pushers rather see the building "died" by itself then to let other develop it slightly differently … what a waste.

Yes, some property developers are cocks too mind you. In for the profit all that …

best thread in a while. plough it! plough it! plough it!

Yeah be very careful. If it gets burnt down you could be forced to rebuild it there and then. Experienced that a few times in the past. Why do you want to bull doze it anyway?

Imprisonment? What if a bunch of kids set fire to it again and again turning it into ashes? What is the maximum penalty for burning down a quarter standing running down to pieces old building?

I mean when the building turn to ashes and the place just turn into a plot of land with no similar building nearby …

Or someone has done the burning previously and now you acquire the empty plot with no one telling you there was a listed building there before? I mean do you think the bunch of pen pushers will up in arms marching toward the newly acquired land demand "restoration" to past glory? Or do you think there is a likelihood they will let you build a post modern mambo jumbo building?

❓

They might let you build a new building but the pen pushers and local councillors will always try to preserve building no matter what the conditions as it's their way of showing power.

A hotel in Plymouth burnt down, it was grade 1 listed and we had to restore it back to former glory both internally and externally

Taff: "Yeah be very careful. If it gets burnt down you could be forced to rebuild it there and then. Experienced that a few times in the past. Why do you want to bull doze it anyway?"

No, no I don't want to bulldoze the half decent ones or those that can be saved but I just see it pointless to rebuild something that is left with only one side wall and few pillars standing … just because there was an old plan drawing of the building in the hands of the pen pushers.

Hypothetically speaking by the way so don't send the pen pushers my way unless she is fit.

it's their way of showing power.

I'm sure that's the only possible reason for insisting on restoration when a listed building "accidentally" burns down.

If you buy or aquire a listed building and it has previous unauthorised modifications or works, that would have rquired consent, YOU are liable. It's a system that works, to prevent the scenario you paint having any influence on the buildings future.

Having said that, the rules and regulations are not as rigid for the majoritory of listed buildings, which are grade 2, that you may imagine. I've lived happily in mine for 15 years, had no problem with the planners what so ever. Changed my windows, no problem. The conservation officer was nothing but encouraging.

If theres little left of the building thats fallen due to disrepair over the decades then perhaps you could convince the heritage that its unsafe and could kill the kids that keep playing near it? Perhaps that would warent bulldozing? To be fair, it would be a bloody crime not to let you flatten whats left of an already fallen down building. I sympathise with your dilema, perhaps the trust would use a little common sense in this situation….then again.

A hotel in Plymouth burnt down, it was grade 1 listed and we had to restore it back to former glory both internally and externally

HHhmmm … I rather like retro buildings and if it is a grade 1 full of history yes I guess. Especially if they are own by some corporation.

I am looking more at really dead building with perhaps a wall and few pillars standing. Rather pointless I see to rebuild that just because the pen pushers have an old plan of the building. I bet they are sitting at the workplace rubbing their hands to see if someone falls into their trap of restoring "their" own glory. You know … like "Gotcha! We are going to have our building back with this mug"

I think you are totally misguided or pi$$ed.

Have fun

🙂

By the way I would be hanged, drawn and quartered if I do this to where I am now – Georgian building. Govt took all the cast iron metal fence for war effort during WWI to melt into ammunition … now I keep getting chavs trying their luck by putting their hands into the window. Was told the building was compensated … but how much? Bet it was peanuts.

Bloody helll … guess I need to petition the govt or English heritage for my cast iron fence back. 😡

woodsman: "I think you are totally misguided or pi$$ed."

LOL! I told you it's hypothetically speaking … I can't even afford to buy a house let alone a plot of land with something historical on it.

Wish I was pi$$ed tonight …

2) LISTED BUILDING OFFENCES

• Breaches can result in prosecution / enforcement action, or both.
• Enforcement may be desirable for the benefit of the building. Works required may be sufficient to remedy the breach. Prosecution may act as deterrent where breach cannot be remedied..
• Injunction may be sought against continuing breaches.

a) PROSECUTION
• S7 & s9(2) P(LBCA) Act 1990 : Offence to carry out unauthorised works to listed building or fail to comply with conditions attached to consent. PPG 15 3.44
• Unauthorised work to a listed building constitutes a criminal offence whilst failure to obtain planning permission is a breach of planning law (civil)
• Offence is one of strict liability i.e. Ignorance of the law / listing is not a defence.
R v Wells Street Metropolitan Stipendiary Magistrates ex parte Westminster CC (1986)
Offence also to: Fail to comply with an enforcement notice (s43) or deliberately carry out an act likely to result in damage to a listed building (s 59)
• 1991 Planning & Compensation Act increased penalties :
• Magistrates Court. Summary conviction = max £20,000 fine/ 6 months imprisonment, or both.
• Crown Court. Conviction on indictment = unlimited fine, imprisonment -up to two years, or both.
• Defence: (s9 P(LBCA) Act 1990) Must prove all of:
• Works urgently necessary for safety or health, or for preservation of building. Unable to secure these by works of repair / temporary support or shelter.
• Works limited to the minimum necessary
• Written notice justifying works , in detail, was given to the planning authority as soon as possible.
• Successful Prosecution. Must show: building is listed , works were carried out, defendant was responsible, works affected the character of the building, works were not authorised.

b) ENFORCEMENT NOTICES

Local Planning Authorities, English Heritage in London & the SoS, can issue where unauthorised works carried out to a listed building, (s38 P(LBCA)Act 1990). PPG 15 3.43
• Notice specifies contravention and action required:
• To restore building to its former state
• Works to alleviate the unauthorised works if not practicable to restore the building.
• To bring building to state it would have been in, if complied with conditions relating to LBC
• Enforcement remedies specified breach .Cannot be used to alleviate previous unauthorised work.
Enforcement cannot be used to secure improvements to a building when compared to state prior to unauthorised works. Bath City Council v SoS for the Env. (1983)
• Listed Building Enforcement Notice must specify:
• Date of effect & compliance period ( flexibility allowed)
• Served on owner / occupier person with interest in building within 28 days of issue
• Notice served not later than 28 days before specified date of effect
• Right of Appeal. Grounds:
• Building not of special architectural / historic interest. Alleged matters not occurred or they do not constitute a contravention.
• Works urgently necessary for health & safety or preservation & limited to minimum necessary
• Consent ought to be granted, a condition discharged /different condition imposed.
• Copies of notices not served as required Notice exceeds that necessary to restore building to earlier condition. Specified period of compliance is insufficient.
• Steps required would not return building to its former state, exceed what is necessary to alleviate or to bring into the state had conditions been complied with
• Sec of State can vary terms of the notice. Non-compliance = fines, as per prosecution.
• Once compliance period ends, authority has right to enter, take the specified steps and recover costs from the owner.
• Notice does not lapse on change of ownership – on register of local land charges.

c) INJUNCTIONS PPG 15 3.47-3.48, s44A P(LBCA)Act 1990

• No “Stop Notice” procedure. Where Local Authority, English Heritage, Urban Development Corporations want to bring swift halt to unauthorised works:
• Application to the High Court . Offender does not have to be present, nor identity known.
• Failure to comply = fines / imprisonment as in contempt of court.

d) RIGHTS OF ENTRY S 88 P(LBCA)Act 1990

• Right of entry for anyone authorised in writing by LPA, English Heritage(in London) and Sec of State. Minimal notice required. Criminal offence to obstruct. Magistrates can issue warrant for forced entry.
• Used for listing, control of works and prosecution , enforcement action, Applications for revocation / modification of consents, appeals & prevention of deterioration and damage.

3) CASE LAW

i. DEMOLITION

Barrington Park case

NB: Pre-Shimizu. Grade I C18 Palladian style country house, extended in C19, by addition of two wings & porte cochere. Same family resident since 1730’s. Consent sought for demolition of C19 wings & restoration of C18 house plus small extension
Principal issues: Architectural merits of original & extensions Relative costs of proposals , Repair
Appellants case:
• “Once in 75 year” scheme. Demolition/ refurb £3.3 mill. Repair of whole £5.2 mill.
• Poor architectural quality of C19 part. Demolition of wings would allow the property to become suitable for modern living
Planning authority:
• C19th alterations respected original architectural style. Costed on “minimal intervention” – £0.8 million-demolition /refurb, £1.3 – repair whole.
• Demand existed for such houses. If wings demolished, number of potential buyers would fall..
• Alternatives existed : family remain in central portion & the two wings leased / sold.
Planning Inspector Held only two alternatives: demolition or minimal repair , no case to split
Dismissed appeal as not satisfied with detail of proposals.
Secretary of State held: Extensions not “mediocre” . Risk of damage to pre-1870 fabric from demolition. No evidence all efforts had been made to find a viable alternative use, nor that house could not be repaired to a minimal standard.

ii. PLANNING CONDITIONS

Newton Hall, Cambridge.

Grade II listed Planning permission granted for change of use subject to condition that section of nearby barn demolished.. Challenged on ground condition not lawfully imposed. Tests: Condition must fairly & reasonably relate to the development Change of use allowed building to be preserved & its appearance maintained. Demolition required to enhance setting of the building. Condition lawful as related to the change of use.

iii. LISTED BUILDING ENFORCEMENT

• PROSECUTION

Laurel Cottages, Barnet .

Grade II Listed artisans dwellings within conservation area. Listed building consent granted for two small extensions. Property vacant and required repair.. Property sold to developer. Developer removed half of roof .Negotiations agreed repairs for each cottage. Included LB application for replacement of a metal window with timber to match others. Work on roof not prosecuted. Developer failed to apply for permission. Removed all internal historic joinery, and replaced with modern off the shelf fittings Fined £7500 & costs. Cottages marketed at £275000 each.

• ENFORCEMENT NOTICE

Noseley Hall Grade II* 1728, remodelled 1890.
Country House sale Paintings removed from two rooms which were considered original to the 1728 design. Enforcement Notices served – 7 paintings from study, 2 from the hall. Held the 7 paintings (set in panels above doors when owner rebuilt much of the hall) were fixtures as study designed on carefully conceived Georgian principles & intended to incorporate the paintings. Hall paintings =chattels as no architectural coherence in the ensemble.

• THE GORMAN CASE . ENFORCEMENT & PROSECUTION (Reported in Context )

Old Hall 1500, C17 lobby entrance range .C19th ranges behind. On “At Risk register” from 1991. Gormans purchased in 1993. Substantial works began, without consent, in 1994. Gormans warned that works were illegal but carried on.

34 items identified as work, not repair and required consent. 33 summons issued
14 Enforcement Notices served (one later withdrawn). Gormans appealed against all. Most upheld
Gormans prosecuted on 29 breaches & pleaded guilty. Argued house had been derelict & work necessary to make house habitable , and a building at risk had been saved. Fined only £14000. Partly accepted that had rescued a building at risk.

4) RELUCTANT OWNERS NB: DCMS responsibility

See S7 PPG 15.7.2 PPG 15 7.4.
Statutory powers against owners who will not take preservation action on listed buildings :

a) URGENT WORKS s54-s55 PPG 15 7.5-7.8
Permits carrying out of urgent works for preservation of listed buildings
Includes emergency works of temporary support & shelter. Minimum works necessary .
Applies only to unoccupied building or part of building.
Local Authorities, English Heritage (in London ) have power to execute.Minimum 7 days notice of intention to carry out works .Works must be clearly described in the Notice.
Costs (not excessive) recoverable from owner (s55)..
S76 Applicable to unlisted building in conservation area to maintaincharacter or appearance of area.
Owner can make representations within 28 days: Some / all works unnecessary , Amount specified is unreasonable , temporary shelter / supports continued for unreasonable length of time
SoS has regard to : Financial circs of the owner , size of the building , extent of work
Appeals unlikely to succeed where owners given sufficient time to complete work or where local authorities can defend costings via estimates.

b) REPAIRS NOTICES s48 Not widely used as authority has to be prepared to purchase

Where LPA / English Heritage (London) consider listed building not being properly conserved.
Protracted failure by owner to maintain property. Notice served on owner. Not confined to urgent works nor unoccupied buildings.Specifies works reasonable for it’s proper preservation
Minimum period for action =no less than two months. Compulsory purchase may be exercised if work not carried out. Works must relate to “preservation” ,not “restoration” Can include work for preservation having regard to condition when building was listed. Can reflect neglect & damage but not restoration of other features.

c) COMPULSORY PURCHASE (CPO) s47

Method of last resort. Proceedings begin once 2 months elapsed from service of Repairs Notice and reasonable steps have not been taken .CPO made by Local Authority or English Heritage . SoS for Culture must consult English Heritage before making / confirming order.
SoS must be satisfied it is expedient , means & resources to secure repair are available and may include land required for access.
Threat of CPO often sufficient to prompt works or sale to a third party. Only 13% cases reach inquiry.
s50 . Provides for minimum compensation where building deliberately allowed to fall into disrepair to justify demolition. Must be clear evidence of intention.
Onus on local authorities . Encouraged to set up back-to-back deals ahead of proceedings. Legal agreements set up whereby authority immediately sells on property once CPO completed. Authorities may identify private individuals or bodies with access to funds to execute repairs.
St Anne’s Hotel , The Crescent, Buxton . Grade I Listed Two Repairs Notices ignored. Further Repairs Notice issued. Owners given 3 months to exercise works with 20-25% grant. No action taken.
Draft CPO made. Owners objected and public inquiry set up.Owners then agreed to sell to District Council who purchased with grant from English Heritage & the National Heritage Memorial Fund.
Pell Well Hall Grade II* Owner sought consent to demolish from 1978 onwards. District Council compulsorily acquired building & land in 1990. Minimum Compensation directed of £1
Authority transferred ownership to British Historic Buildings Trust under back-to-back deal.

d) DANGEROUS STRUCTURES

• No automatic right to demolish listed building, subject to dangerous structure notice. Local Authorities first consider Urgent Works, Repairs Notice and CPO. If order appropriate, works specified still require listed building consent unless under s78 Building Act 1984. Authorities consider extent of work and whether no demolition , or minimal, is required.

e) ACQUISITION BY AGREEMENT S52 P(LBCA) Act 1990
Local authorities can purchase by agreement:
• A building appearing to them to be of special architectural / historic interest
• Land contiguous / adjacent to building required for reserving it’s amenities, affording access or for the building’s proper control or management.

Wake me when I get to the bottom of that last postzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You're already there, CountZero 🙄

Those who cycle in the Peak Park – watch what happens to the old Marquis of Granby pub at Sickleholme.

It has been left in disrepair with a massive hole just alongside it where a swimming pool was planned.

Seems to be a game of brinkmanship in progress between the owner/developer and Peak Park Planning – will be interesting to see who caves in first over this listed building.

Best bet is to talk to the LPA and get their view. In the case of dangerous buildings youy may have grounds to knock it down especially of it was only grade 2 listed. Grade 1 normally isn't allowed to get into such a bad state anyway. If you put up something new near some old listed building you may find that you have to provide something that matches them however internally it'll all be up to current regs

What about that castle on grand designs – tress growing out of it and everything but they did all they could to make it difficult for the developer.

It was convenient how they happened to have the camera running when the internal wall 'fell down' though…

Only contact English Heritage if its a grade I or II*
if its just a grade II contact your local planning auth.

The grand designs one? I thought the listed buildings people were very flexible and co operative.

For an example of how to trash a listed building and get away scot free, have a look at Derby Hippodrome.

http://www.derbygripe.co.uk/hippo.htm

Based on that I would say the first step is to be minted. The second is to do it somewhere with an apathetic and cowardly local council.

The grand designs one? I thought the listed buildings people were very flexible and co operative.

It was a while since I watched it, but I recall him struggling with them lots.

He did – but they allowed him to turn a scheduled ancient monument – the highest standard of preservation on which no alterations are normally allowed into a home including a modern roof with balcony

A decent compromise was reached and all were satisfied

TJ thats really because you can no longer have duel designated monuments. So no more listed buildings that are scheduled. Therefore all buildings that are in 'use' will be de scheduled as listing is a more approprate managemment scheme for a building that is in use.

" rogerthecat – Member

Those who cycle in the Peak Park – watch what happens to the old Marquis of Granby pub at Sickleholme.

It has been left in disrepair with a massive hole just alongside it where a swimming pool was planned.

Seems to be a game of brinkmanship in progress between the owner/developer and Peak Park Planning – will be interesting to see who caves in first over this listed building. "

I heard that it was going to be a hotel, possibly a fancy one?

One of the bIggest problems at the moment is the paucity of Conservation Officers in LAs, fortunately for most of what I work on we go direct to EH.

You should be allowed to trash it:

Heritage/conservation sector is hilarious. The amount of time and effort put into preserving what a handful of people i the 18th/19th centuries decided were important is incredible. The power some heritage organisations have is staggering.

AndyP – that's the rumour, seems to be some planning disagreements. If they leave it long enough next to the large hole it will suffer severe subsidence and either collapse or have to be dropped.

one remaining wall of a listed building was enough for a friends dad to gain permission for his house, on the basis of previous occupancy – it was about a 20 foot pile of rubble that you could just spot the bottom half of a fireplace in, new house is entirely his design after applying to add extensions to the original footprint