Le Tour doping/speculation/rumour/conjecture thread

The Secret Pro on the Giro
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/06/the-secret-pro-on-the-giro-there-were-days-when-youd-just-despair/

A point about Froome when he was kicked off the Giro – he was injured and his explanation for holding onto the motorbike (he was going to retire due to his knee so was getting a tow to the top of the climb where his team were) was considered reasonable at the time though as ever, who knows for sure

The same massive anti doping policy that saw them hire loads of ex dopers as staff, riders and doctors?

and fire them all.

There is nothing but smoke which is mostly been blown in from the outside, if it’s going on then it goes to the top and as says brings into question every medal won and everything that was done to bring it to where it is.

Yeah but why hire them in the first place? Particularly in the case of Leinders – what could they possibly need from a doctor who ran the blood doping operation at Rabobank for over a decade?

mikewsmith – Member
and fire them all.

Did they fire them before it became public knowledge that they were involved in doping, or after? (I honestly don’t know that, haven’t checked.) To be fair though, I’d imagine it would be difficult to find staff, especially ex-pros, who are sqeaky clean.

Have any of the teams got a pro-doping public policy? 😉

yep fair point, but still not exactly what you call evidence.

Was reading an article which claims to be speaking to the guy who made the ventoux climb video:

He confirmed that data was available from other stages, although he was guarded about whether or not that would be made public. “Maybe. But one is enough. One is enough,” he repeated.

Why on earth would he not put the other data up?

Maybe because it would put all this stupid conjecture to bed one way or another and then no one would want to talk to him. (I suspect it would prove that he isn’t on the juice, as if they loads of data to back up juicing they’d publish it, shirley?)

Looking at the vid he appears to average about 380-400Watts – which doesn’t sound unreasonable to me. I’ve briefly looked at links, but can’t work out why people are getting in a froth about it. Has anyone got a link as too why this particular wattage is suspect?

but can’t work out why people are getting in a froth about it.

Cyclist is a success therefore must be doping
I’m not sure what is worse knowing you are spending your time doping & lying about it or being accused with no way to prove your innocence.

Looking at the vid he appears to average about 380-400Watts – which doesn’t sound unreasonable to me. I’ve briefly looked at links, but can’t work out why people are getting in a froth about it. Has anyone got a link as too why this particular wattage is suspect?

A good point. I can average those watts, Albeit for a shorter period of time…

IIRC it’s because his HR response doesn’t seem to match the efforts – eg he attacks and his HR doesn’t move significantly as you’d typically expect. There’s been speculation that this is because he has a low max HR so increasing effort doesn’t raise it.

or the data has been badly spliced from some mix and match stuff to make it look like enough to get a big payout for the other training data that shows nothing.

Regarding yesterday’s stage IMO

PRO

In favour of Froome, happened after a rest day, is the normal Sky plan. Attack hard on the first big day, and let the other teams try to get it back. My prediction is that you won’t see a Sky rider doing anything other than cycling alongside the main five contenders

CON

Every other “astonishing” performance like that in the recent past has been fake, EPO is for any athlete with a room temperature IQ easy to get, take, and remain undetected. The rewards too great, the pressure to succeed too high. If we’re serious about stopping doping then it has to be on the basis of one positive, banned forever, and take the money out of sport.

PEDs are stacked so heavily towards the athlete that I find myself believing less and less in the achievements, which saddens me way more than I should let it

or the data has been badly spliced from some mix and match stuff to make it look like enough to get a big payout for the other training data that shows nothing.

I look at data validity on a daily basis and that video could be anything – any data from any event laid over any section of video from any race.
It proves nothing, it’s deliberately confrontational. Anyone remember that similar video which “proved” Cancellara was using a motor during Paris Roubaix? They’d taken camera angles and sections where he was moving his hands around on the bars a lot and put it all together to “prove” he was using hidden switches.

I never believe stuff like that unless it’s categorically backed up by verifiable official documentation.

And talking of the data and why they’re so protective of it – did anyone remember the trouble Lewis Hamilton got into for tweeting a pic of some F1 car data? He deleted it but it had already been grabbed by all the other teams who immediately went over it with a fine tooth comb – potentially costing them any advantage they’d gained from their tech. I imagine Sky might justifiably expect their data to be treated confidentially by staff/riders for the same reason.

I have to believe in innocent until proven guilty. If CF is doping then it must be running throughout the team and therefore Porte / Thomas etc would all be doping, as would Wiggo in his day, I don’t think it can happen in that scale and not come out eventually. There is no point speculating or insinuating, it will either all come out or it won’t. I will admire and respect their achievements up until some serious evidence suggests otherwise.

With regard to context and data, one thing that is often overlooked is the biomechanics and physics of Froome. He is a freak. He is simultaneously, lanky, wiry and muscly. He looks a bit like a stick insect on a bike and that must help him. There are other lightweight guys out there but there must be some; power / weight / leg length formula that is optimal for cycling and CF must be close to it.

It puzzled me how he looked almost broken at one point yesterday then as if by magic he was a world beater. Id like him to be clean but this argument has been happening for many years about many riders and it will no doubt continue for many years. People argued for and against Armstrong for years until the truth or at least some of it came out. We will probably never know when and if everyone is clean.

If CF is doping then it must be running throughout the team and therefore Porte / Thomas etc would all be doping, as would Wiggo in his day,

Lol it was a brief and angry conversation with Richie on that subject… think they are ready to punch the next idiot that asks..

uwe-r – Member
I have to believe in innocent until proven guilty. If CF is doping then it must be running throughout the team and therefore Porte / Thomas etc would all be doping, as would Wiggo in his day, I don’t think it can happen in that scale and not come out eventually. There is no point speculating or insinuating, it will either all come out or it won’t. I will admire and respect their achievements up until some serious evidence suggests otherwise

This is the argument that allowed Armstrong et al to ruin pro-cycling for a generation. If Froome and Sky are clean then they have nothing to worry about, but these days cyclists must realise that there will be a huge amount of cynicism about their efforts.

I totally agree that cynicism is to be expected of any Tour winner for years to come but as I have said I am in the innocent until proven guilty camp.

Armstrong has left a legacy of suspicion but it is for cycling to present the negative argument (prove is too strong a word), Sky do a pretty good job of this IMO.

It puzzled me how he looked almost broken at one point yesterday then as if by magic he was a world beater

I think that’s called bluffing / tactics 😉

Worked well for Lance in getting Telekom to rip themselves apart one year, same worked for Froome on Movistar yesterday… Mind you that’s valid tactics and nothing to do with doping.

If Froome and Sky are clean then they have nothing to worry about

They don’t seem to come across as particularly worried, but they do come across as pee’d off at the constant suspicion, I don’t think that’s unjustified.

ahwiles – Member
LS – Member
Power meters are nowhere near that inaccurate – 3% at worst, and you’d hope that Pro teams have them all calibrated properly!

tested them have you?

they’re just strain gauges, results can be all over the place.

in the world of force-measuring kit, bicycle power meters are at the cheap end.

PMs have been around for 25+ years now across varying platforms and the tech is pretty settled.
50W out across the board? Or at 100W? At 600W? 1000W? Linear or non-linear error? There is no way on earth that any amateur, never mind big-money pros, would bother with data that was so inaccurate or imprecise.

As it happens I have tested them in a previous job, over a decade ago mind so the earliest Powertaps, Ergomos and the contemporary SRMs. They were all within 2% if I recall, although there was the obvious Ergomo design flaw.
I’ve ridden with a PM for nearly a decade now and have used all the popular brands bar Stages and Vector. I’ve always had more than one so have been able to do direct comparisons between them, and a static torque test is a piece of cake to check readings. If I can do that as an amateur I’m sure that Sky can manage it, especially when they were using SRM Science. Funnily enough my FTP across all my meters over the years has never suddenly dropped to 4th cat or leaped up to Pro with a 50W jump!

The whole bilharzia thing seems to be a convenient excuse

I’ve read some rubbish on this site (and this thread) but that one takes the biscuit.

From Twitter just now, relating to yesterday’s climb (retweeted by Rob Hayles, original tweet from Jeroen Swart)

As it happens I have tested them in a previous job, over a decade ago mind so the earliest Powertaps, Ergomos and the contemporary SRMs. They were all within 2% if I recall, although there was the obvious Ergomo design flaw.

Any idea how accurate crank based ones are with regards to elliptical chain rings? I.e can they accurately catch the velocity changes precisely enough to maintain accuracy?

Sorry, no, it wasn’t something we tested at the time and it’s not my field anymore.

Nemesis very good tactics / skills to be able to change your skin pallor so effectively;)

I call that seeing what you expect to see. I don’t reckon you can really see that on TV.

firestarter – Member
Nemesis very good tactics / skills to be able to change your skin pallor so effectively;)

So what do you think Froome took, in the middle of the stage, which isn’t going to be picked up by his post-stage test?

I don’t think anyone’s dropping brandy and amphetamine these days

Matt

Any idea how accurate crank based ones are with regards to elliptical chain rings? I.e can they accurately catch the velocity changes precisely enough to maintain accuracy?

I am trying to sort this out in the lab at the moment but doing it in my own time. We calibrate dynamic and static torque in several of my laboratories day in day out, trying to set a rig up isn’t that easy as work keeps getting in the way. Pffffft

Can all we just agree that the only way to look clean in cycling is to be a bit sh1t and not ride very well 😀

Also when doing insane thing with your body over a month of racing you end up in a world of grey at the very least.

I find it amusing that lots of posts here and on other threads are along the premise that doping happened only around LA’s time. There was even a post referring to Merckx as an inspirational beacon of clean despite lots of evidence to the contrary. We have a funny way of remembering the past 😉

If we are talking about SKY then one of the most interesting things come up recently was the secret pro making references to Porte being a bit “Valverde”. Nice guy but…

Another thing we can all agree is we are suckers for a bit of gossip 😆

Another thing we can all agree is we are suckers for a bit of gossip

Where did you read that? Source?

😉

Cris Boardman was clearly wrong about Power Cranks. Sorry I mentioned it

I’m going to just enjoy the Tour now. Clearly doping speculation is the ultimate key board warrior game

I of course don’t know whether Sky and Froome are clean. But I’m yet to see a credible argument to say that he is not. So I’ll wait until some actual evidee crops up

But what i can see is that like the moonlanding skeptics you can just pick away at odd anomalies to your hearts content. You don’t need a consistent story you just keep chipping away

Your pointing at Froome comments don’t have to cover whether Wiggins, Thomas, Porte, Hoy and Pendelton are all dopers as well. Because if they aren’t that would acually be even more weird. The Dave Braillsford selective school of doping. If he is doping Froome but not Port he backed the wrong horse

The key board theorist doesn’t have to worry that around 200 million Africans have Bilharzia (I think that’s about 20% of the population)

We haven’t quite had anyone say that “its suspicious that the winner was riding fastest” but its been close. Before the doping did everyone go up the climbs at the same speed?

The best laugh of all is using grand tour finishing places in years where he was a dometique to show how rubbish he was. I assume the person that hasn’t watched a Grand Tour

Nice incoherent ramblings there.. I posted his stage race record simply as before 2011 he hadn’t done anything else of note.

Ritchie Porte has tweeted this: Best moment of my day was stopping to have a chat to a guy calling me a doper on the way way back to the bus. He shit himself #coward

On a lighter not: some interesting willy-waving between Cavendish, Kwiatkowski and Renshaw about their top speed on the descent off the Tourmalet. Renshaw won – Too slow @michalkwiatek @MarkCavendish 107kmh and that was shoving a rice cake in my mouth trying to avoid the cut

Froome story now on ITV4, bit of an insight into where some of the toughness comes from….

Froome story now on ITV4, bit of an insight into where some of the toughness comes from….

I haven’t watched it. Is the answer “his wife” 😆

Ritchie Porte has tweeted this: Best moment of my day was stopping to have a chat to a guy calling me a doper on the way way back to the bus. He shit himself #coward

Wow! #hero! Who runs from an exhausted jockey sized person 😆

Froome story now on ITV4, bit of an insight into where some of the toughness comes from….

Hopefully that is on +1 as still coming home from work. The cynic in me immediately thinks of strategic communications and PR…. But I am biased.

Great to read the positivity that exists behind the belief that cycling/pro sport is clean. Can’t see it myself but prefer others’ positive outlook to my weary resignation.

Frankly I don’t GAF anymore. It’s their bodies, let them take responsibility. The masses want spectacle and new records like the Romans in the Colliseum. Feed the baying masses……that’s the game now. (Sad to say)

107kmh

Flipping heck. 😯

Watched the Froome doc. His elbows stick out even when he’s just standing there. Clearly can’t ride a bike for toffee.