Landlord issues – any advice?

Long read but

Situation:

4 unrelated student tenants in a house in multiple occupancy

House was a bit crap when they moved in, landlord claimed he was going to renovate between last tenants and these four but clearly didn’t. Walls were marked from wear and tear, some pictures, some scuffs, etc. and everywhere just a bit tatty. But student house, etc. Of course we fully documented on moving in.

During their tenancy they’ve generally looked after it OK, but also put pictures up and that has added some blu-tack marks (haven’t yet vacated and cleaned so maybe we can get them off). However during tenancy mould has developed quite badly in a couple of bedrooms, Landlord has been informed and has not done anything, to the extent that the bathroom in particular, became so bad that I myself went in, washed all round with bleach and then repainted with ‘stain block’ and a bathroom specific paint.

They are due to vacate at end of this month and landlord has sent letter of expectations, which would involve getting property to way better state than moving in, or he will deduct from the (secure) deposit. No intention to do that and we are writing back to tell him not to get his hopes up. 3 have actually moved already to various summer jobs, one is still there but away currently on a week’s holiday.

They also have to maintain garden which was overgrown to **** when they moved in. I weedkillered it and took out a load of stuff but needless to say they haven’t done anything since and it’s overgrown again.

**

With me so far….

Landlord asked my daughter if he could have access to replace a door as they were out / away and my daughter said OK.

I went in today to reweedkiller the garden so when we go back at end of month to do clean, I can strim back and rake up hopefully a load of dead stuff and leave it in vaguely a decent shape.

When i got there – someone’s in doing a renovation (wasn’t there but clear evidence) – all internal doors have been replaced with solid / heavy firedoors, self closers, new door furniture and all the door jambs and frames have been replaced and or repaired / filled. A really nice job TBH with quality doors. And bags of dust sheets are in one of the vacant rooms, furniture has been moved to middles of rooms, etc.

However, this is the good bit. On the side was a checklist from the council referencing 2004 Housing Act I and II, and also House in Multiple Occupation 2006, and a list of about 15 things that must be completed by 4th July (doors, resiteing fire extinguisher, providing wired fire alarms in various locations, etc.) and then by 30th Aug investigating, renovating and repainting all the rooms as all have evidence of mould, some have cracked ceilings, ill fitting windows, resealing or replacing bath edges, provision of waste collection bins, etc.

I’m pretty sure I’m not supposed to have seen or photographed this checklist but leave it on display in a house my daughter rents and what laws have been broken? So I reckon we’ve got pretty good evidence that expecting us to return house in pristine nick, or contribute to his renovation via means of deposit deductions is not reasonable and we would have every bit of evidence contesting that (may be able to / intend to deduct a bit for genuine things). Fair wear and tear and principle of betterment, etc. Would you agree?

Second issue – the kids are generally dealing with it but one is a bit flapsy hapsy and their mum is involved and wanted to be informed so has seen the landlord letter saying send it back in A1 nick or else. I’ve now messaged her with a summary of above, and she’s saying the house has been bad all year, wasn’t aware though that it was probably against regs or that the mould was probably enough to be considered a health hazard. And she’s now saying that as well as fighting to get all the deposit repaid she wants to ‘sue’ the landlord for charging a going rate for a very substandard, ‘illegal’ property and get some of the rent repaid.

Where do we stand on that? Looks like council have a responsibility to inspect periodically, and can enforce if not to standard via various means but what rights to the tenants whose ‘health could have been damaged by living in those conditions’ (other Mum’s words, more or less). Her offspring does have asthma and she’s now saying it has got worse this year and now she knows why…..

Frankly, to me as long as we get deposit back in full, it’s part of the Uni experience but how complex does it get if 1/4 of the tenants wants to kick up and sue and the other 3/4 are ‘meh, move on’?

Have you posted previously about your daughter’s experiences of landlords and house sharing in uni-world?

I wouldn’t be saying…meh, move on; I acknowledge you aren’t.

For those tenants saying…meh, move on, they are in for a very rude awakening when they realise they are nothing other than opportunities for more savvy people to prey on.

If it was me – direct to the vice-chancellor telling him/her you will be in contact with local media in seven days unless you receive an acceptable response by return. Define what you mean by ‘an acceptable response’.

Say it…DO IT.

@tj

Hope tj doesn’t mind me @ing him. 🙂

Good luck op, sounds a convoluted mess, getting a copy of that report is a bit of a gift though!

I’m pretty sure I’m not supposed to have seen or photographed this checklist but leave it on display in a house my daughter rents and what laws have been broken?

The landlord wont have broken any laws. They would have been given a “reasonable” amount of time to rectify any issues as long as they have been completed by the deadline thats fine.

Fair wear and tear and principle of betterment, etc. Would you agree?

As long as its left in a “similar” condition as found, (less reasonable wear & tear) thats all that can be claimed against a deposit. If everything was done correctly that deposit should have been held by a 3rd party, so its up to the Landlord to prove the damage, rather than the other way around.

how complex does it get if 1/4 of the tenants wants to kick up and sue and the other 3/4 are ‘meh, move on’?

Was it let as 1x contract for the whole house, or 4x contracts as a HMO?

And she’s now saying that as well as fighting to get all the deposit repaid she wants to ‘sue’ the landlord for charging a going rate for a very substandard, ‘illegal’ property and get some of the rent repaid.

Where do we stand on that?

Probably not worth the hassle really. You’d have to prove that it was “uninhabitable”, have all the documentation/evidence and correspondence.

Frankly, to me as long as we get deposit back in full, it’s part of the Uni experience

Unless you have the skills/experience to peruse this yourself i’d just chalk it up to part of the “Uni experience”

If it was me – direct to the vice-chancellor telling him/her you will be in contact with local media in seven days unless you receive an acceptable response by return. Define what you mean by ‘an acceptable response’.

It’s not a Uni property, private landlord. Not sure what the VC has to do with it (nothing unless I’m really missing something)

I have posted on various Uni/Uni accommodation topics both asking and giving opinions/advice.

@poop, it’s not a report, an itemised list of of ‘By July 4 you have to do x, y, z’ and ‘By Aug 30th you must do a, b, c’

The landlord wont have broken any laws.

That’s debatable, seems like no wired smoke alarms, no fire doors, downstairs bedroom window was restricted and should not be as is technically a fire escape. Absolutely breaking fire regs, hence why seems like they have to be fixed very quickly (the checklist is not dated and looks like an appendix to a letter or email)

I’ve asked elsewhere as well, and seems that the health hazard could be a tricky one. If it was really bad so as to make the house hazardous to health and hence uninhabitable then you can of course refuse to pay rent for the period you can’t be in the house. However, while they have reported it ‘a few times’ and nothing’s been done it looks probably difficult to claim that it was hazardous even if it was because they haven’t played merry hell about it. Mainly because – students, etc., but also because they have bought dehumidifiers and tried to deal with it themselves (sounds unfair, but they’d have more traction if they’d done nothing but forced him to do more)

However the black mould issue is potentially very serious https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63642856#:~:text=Local%20News-,Black%20mould%3A%20How%20dangerous%20is%20it%20in%20the%20home,how%20can%20it%20be%20treated%3F&text=Exposure%20to%20mould%20can%20cause,in%20his%20home%20in%20Rochdale.

So – while they can’t claim that the house was so bad they had to move (they didn’t), they can’t claim it has damaged health (no evidence but one might make a fuss about the asthma – but again they weren’t so bothered at the time to really force the issue when he ignored their messages) – any claim would probably have to be a goodwill compensation type.

Suspect the solution is to vacate without worrying too much about a deep clean leaving the house and garden clean up to him for full deposit refund; using the threat of using the ammunition back against him if he wants to be an arse about it.

Oh – just reread – when I said what laws have been broken, I meant by me photoing someone else’s list of jobs to do (it wasn’t a letter with any identifying addressee, it is relevant to our assertions, it was just there on the table, didn’t remove from an envelope or a briefcase or anything like that, etc.)

4 unrelated student tenants in a house in multiple occupancy

Four separate contracts, each backed by guarantors?

Frankly, to me as long as we get deposit back in full, it’s part of the Uni experience

IANAL. If you get what you want then walk away

but how complex does it get if 1/4 of the tenants wants to kick up and sue and the other 3/4 are ‘meh, move on’?

More complex for the 1/4 I’d have thought. 3/4 “satisfied” tenants. 1/4 chose to stay there…

Deposit. The bulk of University Tenants lose at least some, or all of their deposit. Usually because they just havent kept the property in a reasonable condition. I’ve seen it from both sides, having to both inspect for Tenants and Landlords. Of the ones I’ve been to, most were not clean. Thats basics like just not being hoovered for 6 months+, with vinyl floors in the kitchen and bathroom stained and filthy. The gardens are usually a mess. I really dont know why Landlords for Students have gardens, maybe 1 in 50 is kept in a reasonable condition. Some are just plain filthy. Shite stains in and out the toilet basin. Yes, thats common.Ovens so filthy you wonder how people can even cook in it A great many Students just walk out of the flat with a backpack, and leave all of the furnishings in place. The cost of a skip and cleaning it out is usually more than the deposit. 10 years ago we had a sideline selling DVD players, small TVs, toasters and kettles. Beds and furnishings were skipped. You’ve already said they have made the property worse than it was, but have you got any pictures before living there? You need pics of everything, if the garden was overgrown, you need to prove it. I’m currently renting, the Agent sent me around 100 photos of the condition of the property before we moved in, didnt the Agent do that as part of the deposit scheme? Are they in a deposit scheme? If not, the LL hasnt got a leg to stand on, AFAIAA, all deposits must be in an independent deposit scheme, if not the LL can be fined, and cannot claim the deposit.

As for health hazards, I’ve had lots of dealing with this. Pictures when you moved in are required, or documented complaints about worsening condition. If the mould is growing because they all have showers and dont open any windows, or put the fan on, then what can the LL do about that? I’ve fitted a brand new powerful fan before, and I heard the tenant say to her Partner that we’ll turn it off when he’s gone, as we dont want that noise. You need a documented complaint to do anything about mould growth or unsanitary conditions. The LL has to be given a reasonable time to get it fixed, but, as above, if the Tenants close the windows vents, dont have fans on etc, it isnt going to work. No idea about smoke detection as it isnt clear what was there. Usually there is a Licensing Dept from the Council that covers these things, Until a couple of years ago, a single smoke detector near the front door was enough to satisfy the regs. It’s all down to what the License says, and if a subsequent Fire Risk Assessment has been made. It sounds like this work has been recommended/possibly enforced (fire doors etc), but, complaining retrospectively is not going to get a deposit back.
Your best bet is to get the rooms you are involved in back to a reasonable condition, take loads of pics, then tell them you want your deposit back as it is as clean as when rented. How much was it £600-800? If so, I wouldnt bother, it’ll take you more time to sort it than it is worth. Life lesson, Student has phone, take loads of pics of things, take note of things a bit more, and learn how to complain to LL to improve the house if it is in poor condition. If you have a list of letters complaining of unresolved faults, then you are on a good footing to get the deposit back, no correspondence, then harder, as the LL will be taking photos of the condition, and claiming it was the Students who made the mess.

Its a bit beyond my knowledge.   Scotland or England?   Laws are different.

Deposits can only be taken for provable damage and not wear and tear.

I think I would go with using the threat of reporting the house in poor condition that did not meet hmo standards to ensure a full deposit return and report it anyway

Thanks – a lot in there but try to cover in short.

Yes, loads of photos on moving in and through the tenancy. They have kept it in reasonable condition; there’s four of them who have lived there with varying standards, but my daughter and one other have quite high ones and although rather pissed off at times, the kitchen / oven hasn’t been allowed to get to “so filthy you wonder how people can even cook in it” level but I can well believe they would if the house had four versions of Matt living there.

It is held by deposit scheme, so they have a place to put any complaints about unfair retentions, and are keeping the council’s own assessment (or rather the outcome as in you can’t let this house until a, b, c is done) in reserve as evidence that it isn’t them that have created the issues, they were underlying.

Specifically – the mould has got worse, has been documented several times to the landlord by Whatsapp (student and landlord favoured means) and he hasn’t in general responded, although has responded to others. The students have tried to deal with it – biocidal cleaning sprays, opening windows, my daughter has two electric dehumidifiers running in her room, etc., keeping place warm – but once the mould is in the walls it needs cleaning back or you’re only ever really pushing it back. The bathroom I did myself involved a dilute but strong bleach wash, and then stain block and antimould bathroom paint; he needs to do the same for all the other rooms IMHO.

I get that if they don’t open windows and don’t try to deal with it, what can he do, or that he has to be given time to deal with it? – the answer is he hasn’t tried to do anything other than ignore messages, they have tried it all themselves.

Your best bet is to get the rooms you are involved in back to a reasonable condition

Agreed but back to as moved in minus fair wear and tear would involve them getting walls back to a state still with some mould (we could do, I could easily wash the walls with bleach again) but that doesn’t fix the issue and is a waste of time given he has to do a proper job; secondly he’s already starting to deal with it so he can pass reinspection presumably before next set move in, so by the time we go back at official end of tenancy, the place could well be shipshape.

Deposit across the four of them is about £2100 so not one they easily plan to chalk up to experience.

The worry I guess is that he might claim it’s only as bad as it is because they haven’t looked after it; their counter is that it was bad already, they’ve highlighted it getting worse and have tried both to ask him to deal with it and to deal with it themselves.

Is it a flat or 2 storey house?
Hmo over multiple floors needs interlinked nhard wired smoke alarms.
Is there a co alarm in every room with a gas appliance.?
Black mould , tricky but landlords have been successfully been sued by Tennants in London for failing to rectify issues.
All caused by Tennants probably,

Hmo also need thumb turn locks on exiting doors, for obvious reasons .

Fire blankets , fire extinguisher I think is a reco not mandatory but you can check.

I would be going down the strong worded letter offering a choice of full refund of deposits x 4 , or a day in a small claim court / county court with county council letting officer , fire officer and university accommodation officer representative. I strongly suspect a full refund will begrudgingly offered. .

Don’t forget most canny landlords are still on very low fixed rate mortgages and rents have skyrocketed since COVID so he should have cash for improvement which are tax deductable anyway

I think I would go with using the threat of reporting the house in poor condition that did not meet hmo standards to ensure a full deposit return and report it anyway

Report to who? – the council have been in and issued some sort of improvement notice already, some urgent (in contravention of fire regs, etc.) and some with more time allowed.

That’s another bit of evidence – if he says he keeps houses in good shape and that the mould is all on them, they can point back at non fire doors that don’t close, insufficient fire alarms, etc., and the ignored messages asking him to fix the problem and use the ‘whose story is honestly more believable’ argument.

Thanks STM – average terraced house, 3 bedroom upstairs and one downstairs reception room also a bedroom to make it a 4 person HIMO.

Good shout on the ‘threat’ of involving Uni office as well. Yes, he’s had nearly £24k on the rent over the year. I checked via Zoopla, he’s owned the house since 1999 bought for around £50k so I suspect has virtually no mortgage unless remortgaged on it and so even with rate changes has been banking a large chunk of that.

If you have pics, and evidence of complaints, then I cannot see how the deposit can be held from you. Its in a deposit scheme, they dont always side with the LL, given evidence, they cannot not give it back. There are appeals available too. Keep it simple, he says it is in worse condition, you counter that the rooms are as clean as when moved in, but the mould problem has got worse, and the LL has done nothing about it. You have pictures to show the decline, and emails to the LL, who did nothing. (1)

(1) I really do have sympathy for the LL on many of these mould complaints. Many houses are just not suitable for 4 separate individuals to be living there, they are just not ventilated enough, and having 4 students in such a house is going to increase the risk of mould growth, as, basically, the students dont know, or care, about how it is caused. As I said above, some Tenants just dont help themselves and blame the LL for their problems.It is the lifestyle that causes it, but the houses dont help in being so poorly ventilated. There is a real problem in Social Housing at the moment, the Rochdale death has caused a rumpus, but Housing Assns cannot cure it if the Tenants never open a window or have the fans on.

Absolutely I agree that, but there has to be a ‘right to live’ as well. And saying for example that because he hasn’t used a decent paint with mould resistance, or insulated to stop tops of walls being cold condensation traps, then it’s all on them to have to leave windows open all winter and heat through a CoL crisis to protect his lack of decent maintenance from getting worse isn’t doing that.

Vis a vis – the bathroom was so bad in the dead corner away from the window that I was forced to act. 6 months on after cleaning right back to get to any embedded mould or spores, and using a proper blocker and paint, it’s still in perfect nick.

Yes , but spring summer means open windows so humid air leaves the room as opposed to condensating on the cold walls. Usually above window reveals , top corners .

Always offer a compromise. Ie you will put the garden back to an acceptable state and better than it was at start of term if full refund is paid.

Plus , check those new fire doors are triple hinges and I think should have intumescent strips fitted as well .

Alot to go on

I really do have sympathy for the LL on many of these mould complaints. Many houses are just not suitable for 4 separate individuals to be living there

This makes no sense. Why have sympathy for somebody knowingly renting a property for an inappropriate purpose?

they are just not ventilated enough

This is the exactly the landlord’s responsibility to ensure they are. The entire problem is that LLs are too often in it for easy money and unwilling to put any real work in to make properties fit for purpose.

As mentioned, the deposit should be held by a third party (it’s illegal for the landlord to keep it), so as long as you have evidence, you should be fine, but without it the LL could be difficult.

 I really do have sympathy for the LL on many of these mould complaints. Many houses are just not suitable for 4 separate individuals to be living there, they are just not ventilated enough

lol

““ Many houses are just not suitable for 4 separate individuals to be living there””
“This makes no sense. Why have sympathy for somebody knowingly renting a property for an inappropriate purpose?”

Because they have been used for Students for many years, and not been upgraded enough, so yes, LL should upgrade, but, the fabric of the building will not help. So you could say they are not suitable for 4 separate individuals, but there are not many viable alternative house/flats in many student areas.

“”they are just not ventilated enough “”
“This is the exactly the landlord’s responsibility to ensure they are”

I have a lot of experience in this. I worked for a decent HA for a few years. Building Regs are not strict enough. Modern houses can get mould in them in six months. they shouldnt, but they do. Add in the Tenants never opening windows, steaming food, having multiple long showers, and there will be a problem even in the newest of houses. We gave up with some people who were having damp problems in new houses, we added a few extra air bricks around the place to make sure they couldnt stop the ventilation. They would shut all window vents, never use the extractors, dry their clothes on radiators etc. There’s nothing more the LL can do. The mould only grows because of damp still air. If I was in charge of building standards, all houses would have to have forced ventilation/extraction systems (MVHR), but it wont happen as the large building companies have too much influence over the government, and will continue lobbying to keep standards at a minimum. The UK buidling standards on ventilation are at least 20 years behind mainland Europe.

I’m pretty sure I’m not supposed to have seen or photographed this checklist but leave it on display in a house my daughter rents and what laws have been broken?

Left in plain view in your daughter’s flat and you’re a lawful entrant? No obligation of confidence is upon you.

just as follow up (I dislike threads that might be usefully referred to in future that just fade away with no outcome to them)

She wrote back to landlord as per OP noting the contentions in the letter and that they’re accepting no withholding of deposit for the rooms. He’s basically agreed saying they didn’t need to clear up in there, and is redecorating. He’s OTOH now reiterated bathroom and kitchen need to be professionally cleaned (do they heck, They haven’t seen me with Mr Muscle) and that the garden needs to be ‘in a reasonable state’ – which it wasn’t when she moved in and in any case an hour with a strimmer and a rake and I can have that looking way better in pictures too.

Seems like minimal chance to withhold deposit unless he’s going to try to pull a fast one, and we now have both the history and the council notification as back up.

My advice for all my kids wa to dispute any deposit withholding, unless the damage was casued by them, and the cost charged is reasonable. So a brand new chair broken by kids being stupid should be allowed at full cost. A 5 year old chair that got broken  – dispute, as it is already past due for replacement.

Disputing is easy as long as you have pictures/videos of both moving in and out.

Missed this the first time around.

My understanding is that deposits have to be held by a third part by law, and withholding its return is (legally) difficult.  It’s an empty threat.

Glad you got a good outcome, anyway.

Good news.

My understanding is that deposits have to be held by a third part by law, and withholding its return is (legally) difficult.  It’s an empty threat.

They are, but the risk was that the mould has got a lot worse since they were in, and is he going to say that’s their problem and he’s been forced to redecorate as a result*. The fact she has informed him several times, they have bought dehumidifiers and have evidence of some on moving in indicates an underlying issue. The Deposit issue isn’t so much withholding, you’re right on that, it’s how much he’d try to contest, as that can drag stuff out for ages of back and forward apparently until you just give up. Still way better than when he held it all and then you’d never see it again!

* The argument she has, is that there was mould already – so whether it’s worse or not is irrelevant, he can’t demand paying to fix it because whether there’s a bit, or that has spread, the fix is the same…..he has to fix the ventilation/insulation, and repaint – he can’t say he’d only have had to paint half a wall and now he’s doing the room, that’s on him.