Jesus Christ

I have ethical values but mine do not come from Christianity.

I suspect that this applies to the vast majority of people, which is really great 🙂

I find this attitude that you need to be Christian to be moral and that morality comes from Christianity patronising at best and offensive at worst.

I didn’t say that you need to be Christian to have such moral values, it’s just some of the moral values I have adopted are those taught by Jesus.

Ian

Would any one like some toast?

Nah, I’m a waffle man.

There’s been 7 pages of waffle here, help yourself. 😉

TJ – but where did your “innate moral structure” come from in the first place?

For me, I believe it was God given.

🙄 🙄 🙄

Ohh FFS. So Christians were given morality, and others weren’t?

Was the religious identity of a child specified before conception / birth? As yes, this one gets the morality upgrade package – he / she is a Christian. Next, no, not this one – muslim, no – atheist, no, no, ahh yes moraility in this one please – another budding Christian.

What about those that were “born” Christian (and I firmly believe that no child is born to a particular religious tag) and then show(ed) an absolute absence of morality during their lifetime. Did they have it taken away again?, kept it for the weekend?, kept it for the afterlife?

What about animals? Do cats get morality? What about creatures that show clear social integration, communication, cooperation and reap the benefits of altruism? Wolves for example, come to mind….

Five loaves and two fishes? 🙂

LOL @ sharki, very good! 🙂

The morals thing is interesting – there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that “altruism” is innate, ie be nice to others of your species and they’ll be nice to you. Alternatively, co-operate within your social structure and you’ll achieve more than if you try it by yourself – again there’s thousands of examples of teamwork within the animal kingdom, including animals where they don’t think about it it’s just done (due to genetic/environmental pressures).
Of course in the animal kingdom it kind of breaks down when it comes to the “kill & eat” part of things but certainly intra-species altruism/co-operation is well understood.

There are a lot of parts of the Bible where the moral code is decidedly old-fashioned. I’m sure child protection agencies and the police might have something to say if you tied your son up and held a knife over him having been commanded to do so by a higher being demanding some respect for example…

Morals change with time – I’m sure if I suggested treating gays/blacks/29er riders as second class citizens there’d be uproar but it was only 15 years ago that apartheid was finally repealed. The moral code at the time it was introduced (late 1940’s) said it was fine.

I’m NOT saying only Christians have morales – please re-read (Cougar – this is what I said).

I do believe, and this is just a personal belief, that morales are created by God in the first place.

Sorry, my bad; I read it about six times and missed the “not” every time. Cheerfully withdrawn.

in the animal kingdom it kind of breaks down when it comes to the “kill & eat” part of things

We do that too, of course. (Well, I don’t, but ‘we’ as a species do.)

Is survival immoral?

Morals are a flexible concept that change over time. Altruism is something that is almost certainly an evolutionary trait. Anyone who really understands evolution can clearly see that it not only affects your physiology but also your phsycology.

For social animals like man the ability to co-operate, maintain a steady relationship for the purposes of investing the time it takes to raise young and so on, ie what could be described as moral behaviour, came long before the modern understanding of god.

If anything religion corrupts moral behaviour more readily than atheism, I don’t believe in much and certainly don’t believe in anything so strongly that I’d readily fight for it. The very religious seem keen to impose their structures of morality onto others for Islam it’s almost top of the list of things to do this morning, perhaps less so for Christians.

This is what I mean by breathtaking arrogance, how can the religious claim to know the “mind of god” and what his/it’s view of morality might take? It’s so contradictory as to be laughable.

Apparently Druids have now been recognised as a religion by the government. This was reported late last week in the media. This means that the Druid faith is a recognised charity and benefits from many other tax breaks.

So now all of us tax payers, religious or otherwise, now contribute a little of our earnings to the druid faith in the way we make up the difference from the tax they used to pay but now don’t have to.

Anyone who says that organised religion is not forced on in terms of we all have to pay for it as it is given a higher financial status by our government, needs to dig a little more.
And I’ve heard it said that atheism is ‘just like a religion’.. Well at least not in the eyes of the government it isn’t who won’t give the same tax breaks and charitable status to the humanist society.

When I say that I’m fine living alongside people of faith as a personal choice so long as it does not impact on my choices and freedoms, it is this sort of example that makes me want to argue back against ‘organised’ religion as well as our political system that is still heavily influenced by it.

My soon to be ex wife had to hold a bible in the office of her solicitor the other day in order to legally ‘stamp’ her afadavit. She explained she was not a believer and the solicitor said, ‘Oh it doesn’t matter. It’s just quicker this way’. My wife could have said no, it goes against her own personal morals to pretend to be religious but that would have inconvenienced her to the tune of a few more weeks of waiting. Hypocritical? yes maybe but in the end she’s managed to take advantage of a benefit designed only to be bestowed on the religious.

So our legal system is also tied in with, in particular, the Christian faith.

This is my problem with organised religion. It steps on the toes, in a legal and government sanctioned way, of the lives of everyone, whether they believe or not. Whether they object or not. It affects the tax we all pay and the judicial system that we all rely on.

I could go on with other examples involving the education system and how if you pretend to be religious you gain greater choice… and the way that worship is a prescribed part of state education… oooooh! it makes me cross!

When atheists argue using terms as ‘not down my throat’.. they tend not to be arguing about people trying to force them to believe in the word of the bible or any other holy book, but rather the fact that we all have to pay and go along with religious legal structures in order to live in this society. If they didn;t they would be disadvantaged. That sounds to me like a two tier system, to coin a political cliche.

Simple changes are all that’s needed.
A state education system where religious education means learning about different faiths only and the collective worship element removed from the compulsory elements. It IS compulsory at the moment BTW. Even religious studies is a compulsory subject in the state education system to GCSE level. You can opt your child out of it but the school has no obligation to replace it with another academic subject. We were left with the choice of our son taking RE to GCSE or opting him out and have him gain an extra two free periods a week. We wanted him to be able to choose another subject but that was not an option the school could offer.

Charitable status is maybe ok but remove the tax breaks for religious organisations.

Remove the outdated judicial mechanism of swearing on any holy book. If you lie in court or in a document you are in contempt of court. That’s enough surely.

When believers of no faith are treated by society as equals to those with faith then I think I’ll quietly shut up and get on.

There are a lot of parts of the Bible where the moral code is decidedly old-fashioned

God behaves like a vindictive shit for most of the old testament for a kick off….

No worries Cougar – if it helps, my wife will ask me to get something from the fridge and it isn’t there when I look. Yet whenever she stops what she’s doing and opens the door it’s magically appeared!! How do they do that!! LOL

I do believe, and this is just a personal belief, that morales are created by God in the first place.

Ok, so lets explore that belief. Created by God, for whom? All of humankind? Just Christians, or all religions and races?

What about the other creatures on the planet? Did humans get morality because God created “man” in his own image? Does this mean that men are fundamentaly moral and women are fundamentally immoral?

It strikes me that, judged on a planetary / environmental impact level that humans are actually fundamentally amoral /immoral

Left to God’s planning there would have been no problems but sin got in the way.

To argue a point and involve God then you have to also include the one who always manages to hide from these discussions – the devil, satan, fallen angel if you will.

Yet whenever she stops what she’s doing and opens the door it’s magically appeared!! How do they do that!!

It’s not just god, women also move in mysterious ways.

(-:

To argue a point and involve God then you have to also include the one who always manages to hide from these discussions – the devil, satan, fallen angel if you will.

Presumably god created satan. Why do we get the blame for that for all eternity?

Left to God’s planning there would have been no problems but sin got in the way

Right so your perfect all powerful god made a mistake then, forgot something , could not prevent sin etc surely [ not a question as it does] implieas weakness, error or impotence on thepart of your supreme being
I built a wheel last night it was out of dish I blame the wheel or the devil for this and it clearly was not my fault as the great wheel maker.
Bet you will tell us that god works in mysterious way next time he kills [ or chooses not to save] lots of people in a natural disaster Sunami for example.
Nice post mark

The problem of the origin of evil is not a new one, and one that the Bible doesn’t answer explicitly. The Bible is very clear that God is holy and therefore couldn’t be the author of sin (1 John 1:5), but since He is also sovereign He must have allowed sin to enter the world.

Why would He let this happen? Remember that God created the world for His own glory. The explanation of the origin of evil I like best is that if everything was left perfect as God created it, we would only see one side of His character. We would see His power and perfection, but not much else. By allowing sin into the world and more importantly providing a solution to the problem of sin we see God’s grace, mercy, and love (Romans 5:8). We see that God loved a world (that hated Him) so much that He would send His Son to take the punishment deserved by sinners.

It’s also worth noting that God’s plan for the salvation of mankind was not an afterthought or a patch on a failure as if Satan got the better of Him. The Bible says that it was always His plan to save sinners through the work of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 3:11).

Is that supposed to be ironic?

God didn’t create sin? I thought god created everything, where did it come from then? God’s dad?

Remember that God created the world for His own glory.

You forget to mention in your statements that this comes from a book… a bit like Care Bears really.

You can’t ‘remember’ or refer to a book that has no scientific or factual origin and quote from it like it is (and pardon my LOL pun) gospel. It just isn’t right.

It would be like a Judge in a court saying, ‘you shall be put to death like Skeletor at the hands of He-Man’ as ultimately they are both stories. Nothing more, nothing less.

No offence intended.

And we’re not supposed to ridicule this??

FFS and furthermore WTF..

We see that God loved a world (that hated Him) so much that He would send His Son to take the punishment deserved by sinners.

so rather than kill us all he [ you gave god a gender there not me] just killed his son instead…a foolproof plan by anyones standards.

It’s also worth noting that God’s plan for the salvation of mankind was not an afterthought or a patch on a failure as if Satan got the better of Him. The Bible says that it was always His plan to save sinners through the work of Jesus

Right so god knew we would sin after god made us but it is still our fault if we sin.

FWIW i just cannot see how a person of sound mind could possibly actually believe in this stuff. It’s actual fantasy and plain to see.

The excuse of ‘having faith’ is nonsense. Science tells me if i try to walk on water i will get wet. Having faith will not stop this but apparently it happened to some guy who reckoned he was the son of the Chairman of teh Fairies.

Utter utter nonsense. Believing in make believe does not solve the worlds problems, it clouds the minds and prevents reasoned and accurate discourse. It is responsible for the continued suffering of literally millions of people around the world and this is unexcusebale.

Lead a fair and responsible life and think for yourself. There is no god.

fact. and you cannot prove otherwise. it is not the non believers job to prove a negative, the believers should be made to prove their positive.

so rather than kill us all he [ you gave god a gender there not me] just killed his son instead…a foolproof plan by anyones standards.

He tried to clear sin once before by drowning everyone and everything (including the presumably blameless animals) with the exception of Noah and co.

So that failed to clear sin, God presumably not realising that Noah wasn’t quite the saint He thought so then he sent his own son who died for us.

/looks around at the state of the world

I believe, in the terms of a certain internet site, that would have the word FAIL writ large next to it…

There will always be people who do evil things. Ironically, for otherwise good people to do evil things, that usually requires religion.

I didn’t forget to mention that the source of my statement was the Bible which is why I included references to relevant verses. I’m not trying to convince anyone here, I’m just providing an explanation for what evangelical Christians believe and why they believe it. Some people on here asked some questions so I offered some answers. That’s fine that you disagree but there is no need to be insulting about it. Can’t say I’m surprised tho.

He tried to clear sin once before by drowning everyone and everything (including the presumably blameless animals) with the exception of Noah and co.

… but excluding birds and fish. Maybe that’s why we still have sin today, from eating evil fish?

Cougar – Member
God didn’t create sin? I thought god created everything, where did it come from then? God’s dad?

I’ve already explained this in my Warranty replacement post, stating God is no better then fruit according to the opinions of the majority of STW’rs.

God created Lucifer an angel, Lucifer created Satan, therefore god played his part in the creation of sin. However he seemes to have written a get out clause/loophole, which voids the 28day no quibble money back guarantee.

The pope’s for example, what a fine example of upstanding humans they’ve been over the years, apart from the murderous, deceitful bad ones of course, still gotta love ’em eh?
Well worth spanking several million pounds worth of security measures on his little publicity tour this year.

and of the wargs, the elves, the dwarves and kings of men to name but a few, where’s their part in all this? Gandalf hasn’t even been mentioned yet…
More toast or waffles anyone?

Cougar – I’m not sure that animals “sin” as a choice.

Sharki – you appear to be doing a fine line in waffles – I’ll# have 3 please

Bit harsh then, wiping them all out. What did they do to deserve a soggy near-genocide?

I’ll have sardines on toast.. evil little blighters..

I have a question… will there be sex and drugs and rock and roll in heaven..?
Is that why Christians always look so smug..?

If not then I will continue to worship satan and all his lovely yummy excess and perversion and stuff.. all my mates are going to hell anyways.. I’d be lonely in heaven

And god said unto Noah, ‘though shall build an ark and save your family and gather animals’, Once the floods had gone, Noah then planted a vineyard and made wine and sat nekid in his tent only to be caught by his son, it was NOT written that Noah was caught in his tent with his pants down and surrounded with animals,so the first case of beastiality was kept a well hidden secret from all but god.

It’s written that Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950, he was 600 when the floods came. This is all fascinating reading.

Was it during these floods that Nessie got into the Loch? It seems the only logical way..

Some interesting responses. I liked this one from markd:

FWIW i just cannot see how a person of sound mind could possibly actually believe in this stuff. It’s actual fantasy and plain to see.

The excuse of ‘having faith’ is nonsense. Science tells me if i try to walk on water i will get wet. Having faith will not stop this but apparently it happened to some guy who reckoned he was the son of the Chairman of teh Fairies.

I don’t treat my faith as an “excuse” at all. To me it feels very tangible, if difficult to describe. It helps me through my day, and I see the same in other people who also have faith.

Utter utter nonsense. Believing in make believe does not solve the worlds problems, it clouds the minds and prevents reasoned and accurate discourse. It is responsible for the continued suffering of literally millions of people around the world and this is unexcusebale.

Without religion, I do not think this would solve the worlds problems either…

Lead a fair and responsible life…

Yes!

…and think for yourself.

I have, and my thinking has lead me to the belief that there is a God.

There is no god.

In your view, which is fine. Lead yourself a fair and responsible life without god, and I’ll lead mine with God.

fact. and you cannot prove otherwise. it is not the non believers job to prove a negative, the believers should be made to prove their positive.

You’re trying to prove a negative here. I can’t prove there is a God but it doesn’t automatically stand to reason that there isn’t.

Same applies to infinity, for example. Can’t prove it’s there, yet scientists and mathematicians the world over are divided on where it exists or not.

Religious belief linked to being a bit dim

atheists are more knowledgable than believers when it comes to the facts accorind to this survey….

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39397251/ns/us_news-life/

That’s fine that you disagree but there is no need to be insulting about it.

I agree on one level. There really is no need to be insulting on a personal level.

However, it becomes rather difficult to avoid insult when believers put such faith in their beliefs that all rational analysis is abandoned. The biblical explanations that you cite regarding the origin of sin truly are an insult to rational 21st Century knowledge and thinking.

BUT, it is near impossible to state that without causing insult. BECAUSE it is belief, and therefore deeply held and PERSONAL, to criticise or question will almost inevitably cause insult. To question FACT should not cause personal insult, merely to seek further / convincing evidence.

Welcome to two pages ago.