I've never read 1984. Should I?

Who suggested it was like Stalinist Russia? Not me. I was drawing comparision’s between Orwell’s prophetic future and the world we live in today.

anpr? records that track where you have been.
e-passport tracking with enhanced intergovernmental tracking in an apparently more “liberal” society?
big screen in your house tracking everything you do? not literal, but there is a big screen that brainwashes most into divulging their private lives to zuckerberg, in a jurisdiction that can force them to hand over that info to a government.
laws to monitor all email, phone etc. contact and stored “in case they are needed”.

may not all be literal but there is an authoritarian – liberal paradox via the use of screens with cameras.

One of the greatest works of literature in the English Language. Anyone who hasn’t read it by early adulthood has been educationally deprived, in my opinion. I’ve read it several times, as a child, a teenager and at various times during my adult life. It resonated with me at each reading, in different ways.

Scour some second hand shops, get a paper copy, and download it for free. The idea that you can get it on Amazon, as already pointed out here, would have Orwell spinning in his grave.

What set Orwell apart from his contemporaries/similar authors, was that he imersed himself in the situatios that affected his subjects, and whilst his familial wealth always offered him sanctuary, he chose instead to shun that, and live the lives of others as his own. Which gave him an incredible objective and subjective perspective, rather than the flaneuristic approach of most other writers who focus onthe condition of the dregs of society without ever having experienced it.

The bit that always stood out for me, was the account of how Smith, as a chid, stole his younger sister’s meagre chocolate ration, which sparked off a series of events which led to his mother and sister’s abduction by the authorities. Utterly, utterly heartbreaking.

Molgrips; I think you need to read 1984, maybe several times. And maybe then it might make sense.

Sitting in my room now, I am not being monitored by CCTV, unlike in the book.

using the internet, what you’re doing is being logged. didn’t you know that?

I haven’t read any of the above – but I have managed to get a copy of “Make Room, Make Room” by Harry Harrison (my favourite author) which I am enjoying a lot – basically about overpopulation and diminishing resources and is quite scary so far.
Soylent Green was based on it (the film) IIRC.

I think there are done very interesting and obvious parallels that one could draw…. It’s not just CCTV though, web cams baby-cams, traffic cams, dashboard cams , satellites, drones, google earth and street view.

3 wars that we’ve “won” supported not by the population, but very much by corporations, and those “interests” that are served by such. “War on terror” “War on drugs” “War on poverty” ever increasingly growing economy. The continuing and resolution of EVERY political debate into the financial. Dwindling newspaper sales, e-books being downloaded, revisionist interpretations of historical events, the fear of Communism replaced by the fear of Islam

None of that has happened at all…

not literal, but

So in other words, not at all like it, unless you really screw up your eyes and try.

using the internet, what you’re doing is being logged. didn’t you know that?

It MAY be being logged, but almost certainly no-one is scrutinising it. And I can say ALMOST anything I like without fear of repercussion. Let me demonstrate:

Cameron is an arse! Obama is an arse! Britain is shit! The government are crooks! Start a revolution!

And of course, aside from the NSA listening intently to STW it’s obviously being logged because I am posting it to a public website where it’ll be indexed by Google.

Molgrips; I think you need to read 1984, maybe several times. And maybe then it might make sense.

Well it did make sense at the time, of course, so I’d expect it to make sense still. I’m not sure how much Cold War social history you are aware of though – this is after all the context of the book. It’s a warning about communism, not privacy in the ‘free’ world. If the same book had been written now it would constitute a different message.

revisionist interpretations of historical events, the fear of Communism replaced by the fear of Islam

None of that is new either. And dwindling newspaper sales are only a consequence of increased free consumption in other media.

Fear of Islam now isn’t the same as fear of communism was then. A lot of people, including politicians, a large section of the population and media had watched communism form an empire across a huge part of the globe and thought there was a very real risk of it either continuing to subvert countries, or the Soviet empire taking up arms and invading the free world in a traditional war. Whereas now most people are simply concerned about random acts of terror. Now it’s small groups of fanatics, then it was governments and hundreds of millions of people, potentially.

*post reported*

*moves away from Molgrips*

Molgrips who?

It’s a warning about communism, not privacy in the ‘free’ world.

Such a naive interpretation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25005703
http://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs3EAJZdT.woAhRdLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTB1Mzg2czUyBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2lyMgR2dGlkA1NNRVVLMjdfMQ–?p=Blacklisting+2013+-+The+Workers+Strike+Back

Your names on the list, you’re not coming in…

Fear of Islam now isn’t the same as fear of communism was then.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/nov/14/pressandpublishing.religion
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/file/1903718317.pdf
https://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0111-360
http://www.radianceweekly.com/75/962/presidential-elections-in-turkey-a-positive-sign-towards-change/2007-09-09/anti-islam-bias/story-detail/us-media-politicians-demonise-muslims.html

Fear of Islam now isn’t the same as fear of communism was then.

You don’t think that “fear of the other” is a tactic being used by propagandist govts and mainstream media to control and direct perceptions?

And I can say ALMOST anything I like without fear of repercussion.

You’re probably not a ‘person of interest’. If you were, the police might try to get into you pants:

Police Spies Out of Lives

Just because nothing is happening to YOU, a conformist with ‘nothing to hide’, doesn’t mean that all OUR civil liberties and human rights aren’t being slowly eroded.

Watching the UK from the outside it’s quite scary just how much of your freedoms are being eroded, bit by bit – the right to silence, radars and anpr everywhere, massive amounts of CCTV, government monitoring of communications, the anti-terrorism legislation, etc. The UK is much more of a police state than where I live in Spain.

And I can say ALMOST anything I like without fear of repercussion. Let me demonstrate:

some guys said that on twitter, and got nicked.

radars

Speed cameras are an erosion of freedom? Give me a break!

The UK is much more of a police state than where I live in Spain.

But still nothing like a police state.

Just because nothing is happening to YOU, a conformist with ‘nothing to hide’, doesn’t mean that all OUR civil liberties and human rights aren’t being slowly eroded.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that what we are experiencing now is trivial compared to what Soviet Russia went through, and what Orwell was writing about. In the book EVERYONE was under extreme threat, for the purposes of controlling the population. Currently they are being somewhat heavy handed in an attempt to catch people who would threaten the safety of the majority. In some ways the opposite of the book – the authorities are working to preserve the liberty of the majority whereas in the book they are suppressing it.

The issue we currently have is that in attempting to catch people who are a genuine threat they are causing problems for others.

The intentions of the authorities now are completely different to the book. And that’s the point.

Speed cameras are an erosion of freedom? Give me a break!

Constant surveillance an erosion of freedom? What an idea!

Some people above are rather confused on what 1984 was about. Facebook or blacklisting of workers by companies as described above are nothing to do with what 1984 was about.

Molgrips is right 1984 was concerned with the rise of Communism (the Stalin kind), as Orwell realised more and more that Communism wasn’t the answer.

Constant surveillance an erosion of freedom?

Do you think they are watching you through speed cameras?! Do you think someone is making notes on you as you drive past?

Some people above are rather confused on what 1984 was about. Facebook or blacklisting of workers by companies as described above are nothing to do with what 1984 was about.

The operative bit being “was” about. How we interpret 1984 in 2014 is quite different to how Orwell originally intended it. You and molgrips are right in saying the UK is nothing like as bad as Stalinist Russia, but to argue that 1984 should only be interpreted in that light is IMO unreasonable.

Do you think they are watching you through speed cameras?! Do you think someone is making notes on you as you drive past?

No, it’s far worse – they get a computer to do it. Far more pervasive.

You’re saying that your whereabouts are actively being monitored through speed cameras? So someone, somewhere could tell me where mogrim has been the last few weeks due to speed camera footage?

to argue that 1984 should only be interpreted in that light is IMO unreasonable.

I don’t think so at all. He wrote it to make a point. You can’t just pin whatever current concern you have on a book about something else, just to add a bit of weight to your point. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Seeing as you probably have little idea what ‘Soviet Russia went through’, like most of us, you have nothing to really compare with the current situation, which, in some ways, is actually a lot more similar to Orwell’s dystopia than a SU with hardly any ofthe methods of surveillance available to agencies now.

Molgrips; seems to me that you’re talking with very little knowledge indeed of the real lengths that the state and various other ‘security’ and even commercial agencies now go to to obtain information on groups and individuals. You really do need to read up on the subjects I linked to, and many others, to get a fuller picture.

‘what we are experiencing now is trivial’

No, what YOU are experiencing may be trivial, but you aren’t a ‘person of interest’. Clearly. Or you’d have a different perspective.

http://www.markthomasinfo.co.uk/section_writing/default.asp?id=30

You’re saying that your whereabouts are actively being monitored through speed cameras? So someone, somewhere could tell me where mogrim has been the last few weeks due to speed camera footage?

Sorry, should have been more clear: the anpr cameras. And thankfully there aren’t many (not sure if there are in fact any) here in Madrid.

Ok, so you’re syaing that the apnr cameras are tracking all of us and logging where we’ve been? So the government actually knows where I’ve been in my car?

Molgrips; seems to me that you’re talking with very little knowledge indeed of the real lengths that the state and various other ‘security’ and even commercial agencies now go to to obtain information on groups and individuals.

No no no – you miss my point. The point is that in the book (and in Stalinist Russia) a ‘person of interest’ is anyone who says anything negative.

In the UK, a person of interest is generally suspected of a crime, terrorist offence or something dangerous.

Or is this not true? Are people being disappeared for being anti-regime?

You’re saying that your whereabouts are actively being monitored…….?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4800490.stm

Ok, so you’re syaing that the apnr cameras are tracking all of us and logging where we’ve been? So the government actually knows where I’ve been in my car?

Basically, yes, they know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police-enforced_ANPR_in_the_UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4800490.stm

Facepalm.

“In January, police requested journey information 61 times”

So EXACTLY like 1984 then! OMG!

Basically, yes, they know.

Ok so what are they going to use that information for? Remember, we are talking about the novel 1984 here, and whether or not the UK is like the state in the book.

Do you really think that the Stasi at the height of their powers were actively monitoring the whereabouts of everyone in GDR?

Not sure if anyone has done this yet, but thought it worth a laugh:

No I think the Staszi were prosecuting people who spoke out against the regime. Something that I do not think happens here.

If you can point to ONE incidence of someone being disappeared by the authorities for being anti regime, I’ll concede a point.

I’m interested though in a Goldstien/Bin Ladin comparison conspiracy theory I found on the internet the other day

Yep we need our bogey men to help keep us in line

I always enjoyed this Adam Curtis documentary

If you can point to ONE incidence of someone being disappeared by the authorities for being anti regime, I’ll concede a point.

Ooh can I play 😀

Dr David Kelly

Facepalm.

“In January, police requested journey information 61 times”

So EXACTLY like 1984 then! OMG!

What about 22,000 times in 4 years then?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/10/metropolitan_police_asks_for_tfl_data/

But you’re missing the point. Which is that governments and various other agencies are incresingly using surveillance, infiltration and other information-gathering methods to gain information on individuals, groups and organisations, legaly and illegaly, for all sorts of reasons, not all of which are benign. As I have shown. Which you apear to ignore. And/or be in denial about.

Information in itself is of little consequence; it’s what is done with that information, how it is gathered, collated, interpreted, presented and manipulated, and by whom, that is. Which is the basic premise of Orwell’s book.

Quo custodiet ipsos custodes?

I read it this year, and was surprised/shocked by the content. Had been put off for years by the rat mask idea (highlighted by the film, which I haven’t seen), but seemingly the ‘ppl management’ was the worst part of the book for me. Thought it worth a read and it was & I’d recommend it to others, but I won’t be rushing to re-read it.

“In January, police requested journey information 61 times”

So EXACTLY like 1984 then! OMG!
a – how much access to information d they have that they don’t need to ask for so there’s no records of requests?
b – and I know this will stretch you little bit – the fact that the information is there means it CAN be used. As such 1984 is a warning about the abuse of the kind of technology the authorities have at their disposal and are using. It’s not exactly like 1984, of course not, but I’d have thought that even someone as unimaginative as you would see that the state is using tools like islamophobia and paedofear to push us further down that path.

As I have shown. Which you apear to ignore. And/or be in denial about.

Well no, I’m not denying it happens.

What I’m saying, once again, is that the reasons for doing it in the west, now, are not the same as the reasons they did it behind the iron curtain, or in Orwell’s book.

Dr David Kelly

Oooh, good one!

Which is the basic premise of Orwell’s book.

I don’t think so, not at all.

His book is about what could have happened to the world had Stalinist Russia continued to become more and more powerful.

Your interpretation is what happens when you read it purely from a contemporary point of view – which is not the author’s original aim. You can’t hijack his book just because there are SOME similarities.

I’d have thought that even someone as unimaginative as you

Oh piss off, there’s nothing wrong with my imagination. I just know when to separate it from real life.

His book is about what could have happened to the world had Stalinist Russia continued to become more and more powerful.

Exactly where in the book does it say that – not page numbers please, I’m using a amazon purchased hence government monitored kindle.

His book is about what could have happened to the world had Stalinist Russia continued to become more and more powerful.

Your interpretation is what happens when you read it purely from a contemporary point of view – which is not the author’s original aim. You can’t hijack his book just because there are SOME similarities.

Why not? The author’s long dead, we can interpret his work how we see fit. We do it all the time with Shakespeare and Dickens, why not Orwell?

Exactly where in the book does it say that

🙄 Just after the bit where it says it’s about misuse of technology.

The author’s long dead, we can interpret his work how we see fit.

Interpreting it isn’t the same as hijacking it.

Interpreting it would be say, treating it as a love story as someone did earlier. You can’t treat it as a story about something that didn’t exist when it was written.

What I’m saying, once again, is that the reasons for doing it in the west, now, are not the same as the reasons they did it behind the iron curtain, or in Orwell’s book.

That’s the point, the agenda of the Stalinist govts are Identical to the ones more “liberal” govts have